Turkey

Tian xia.

I remember those words from the movie hero (jet li)

Probably the f16 pilots thinks that by killing erdogan turkey will be in chaos and well..
Military coup de tat will always ends in a bloody massacre after. Imagine if erdogan dies, what do we think will happen?

I sided with erdogan on this one, disagreeing on political issue is not a good enough reason to start a military coup involving killing the president.
 
No real shock there, I can definitely see a government having a list of potential enemies (not saying it is right, just saying I can easily see it happening) and then taking advantage of a situation to use that list.
Having a prepared list of over 2700 judges to be detained/removed from duty is a normal practice?
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...two-million-coup-hit-country-earn-3-day.html#

About how Erdogan and his wife live in strict Muslim values. I'll expect a large part of the article being false (daily mail, after all), but still interesting to read.

I actually think that Erdogan really cares about Islam as much as me. It is just a tool to gain power. Most of the country would want some Islamic law, and he is trying to put some Islamic values and at times laws, in order to appeal to them. Now they fecking worship him. He likely eats pork and drinks alcohol when no-one is there to see him.

Agree with suedesi about Gulen movement. No-one knows what they really want, and at least Erdogan has been quite good for Turkish economy. Better him than Gulenists, although I hope that this is a wake up call for him, and he tries to become less dictator rather than more. Because the next coup d'etat (which I'll expect to happen when/if the economy goes down) might be better organized, more sincere and probably fatal for him.
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...two-million-coup-hit-country-earn-3-day.html#

About how Erdogan and his wife live in strict Muslim values. I'll expect a large part of the article being false (daily mail, after all), but still interesting to read.

I actually think that Erdogan really cares about Islam as much as me. It is just a tool to gain power. Most of the country would want some Islamic law, and he is trying to put some Islamic values and at times laws, in order to appeal to them. Now they fecking worship him. He likely eats pork and drinks alcohol when no-one is there to see him.

Agree with suedesi about Gulen movement. No-one knows what they really want, and at least Erdogan has been quite good for Turkish economy. Better him than Gulenists, although I hope that this is a wake up call for him, and he tries to become less dictator rather than more. Because the next coup d'etat (which I'll expect to happen when/if the economy goes down) might be better organized, more sincere and probably fatal for him.

I can almost guarantee the exact opposite will happen.
 
Man, the gulenists are the real sharia... no one knows what they stand for, they're such an opaque and secretive cult. They could easily have turned Turkey into an Iran.
They're willing to hide and camouflage everything until they attain power. So no one knows what they believe. All we know is they believe ANYTHING their leader tells them
I'd say they were more likely to have an liberal outlook on the role of Islam and the State. They were ambiguous on the issue of hijab, and they were critical of Erdogan after he cut ties with Israel, post-Mavi Marmara... Though, as you say, who's to know if that wasn't all just a part of a Machiavellian script to curry more influence and power?
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...two-million-coup-hit-country-earn-3-day.html#

About how Erdogan and his wife live in strict Muslim values. I'll expect a large part of the article being false (daily mail, after all), but still interesting to read.

I actually think that Erdogan really cares about Islam as much as me. It is just a tool to gain power. Most of the country would want some Islamic law, and he is trying to put some Islamic values and at times laws, in order to appeal to them. Now they fecking worship him. He likely eats pork and drinks alcohol when no-one is there to see him.

Agree with suedesi about Gulen movement. No-one knows what they really want, and at least Erdogan has been quite good for Turkish economy. Better him than Gulenists, although I hope that this is a wake up call for him, and he tries to become less dictator rather than more. Because the next coup d'etat (which I'll expect to happen when/if the economy goes down) might be better organized, more sincere and probably fatal for him.

If he's not an idiot he's going to use the failed coup to get rid of everyone who might pose even a remote danger to him, so I think the opposite of what you're saying is the likeliest outcome.
And the next coup is going to be that much harder, since all the influental critics will be removed from power.

edit: see the post above mine:
judges and teachers.. that probably says all there is to know about his future course if true.
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...nation-of-every-university-dean-in-country-a/

so, the educational system is also getting purged. Every single dean in the country and 15k teacher.


Reuters reports:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-security-idUSKCN0ZX07S
Where is the logic on firing every dean on the country? Gulenist movement is very infiltrated, but does this mean that most of the deans are in that movement and so Erdogan isn't taking any chance?

Those Gulenists put Illuminati to shame when it comes to getting infiltrated in all sectors.
 
If he's not an idiot he's going to use the failed coup to get rid of everyone who might pose even a remote danger to him, so I think the opposite of what you're saying is the likeliest outcome.
At the moment yes. Later, if he goes full dictator, it might be risky IMO. Maybe the next time, the F-16s will fire against him, especially if the army really feels that it is time to get rid of him compared to this time when it was just some generals wanting to survive.

But yep, the history agrees with you and likely Erdogan will go full dictator.
 
Where is the logic on firing every dean on the country? Gulenist movement is very infiltrated, but does this mean that most of the deans are in that movement and so Erdogan isn't taking any chance?

Those Gulenists put Illuminati to shame when it comes to getting infiltrated in all sectors.
well. I guess he is not taking any chances. Additionally controlling education means, that he can effectively alter ideas in the long run. It is probably not only about the Gulenists, but about changing the perceptions about secularism/religion.
I also don´t think that his life-style contradicts his believes. It is a misconception, that devout believers must reject a modern way of life.
 
Those Gulenists put Illuminati to shame when it comes to getting infiltrated in all sectors.

When you consider that Erdoğan himself helped to put them all there, it's hardly a surprise that they were so embedded within the state. I know for a fact that they were.
 
Turkey coup aftermath: between neo-fascism and Bonapartism

https://www.opendemocracy.net/cihan-tugal/turkey-coup-aftermath-between-neo-fascism-and-bonapartism

Just the last section pasted below, the whole thing is worth a read:

...The Turkish regime has been swinging dangerously between an extreme version of right-wing Bonopartism and (what I have recently called) neo-fascism over the last few years. Bonopartism is a top-down dictatorship that only occasionally deploys mass action. Bonopartist masses are disorganised and do not have a coherent ideology. Fascist regimes, by contrast, depend on the masses more organically. Their masses are organised and are more ideologically in tune with the regime.

Compared with the classical fascist regimes, inter-war Italy and Germany, the Turkish regime had a much more troubled relation with its (Islamist) civic roots (the Erdoğan government publicly disowned Islamism in its first few years). Yet the new regime gradually re-incorporated and re-mobilised the masses and civic circles it had previously demobilised.

In the last couple of months, the Turkish regime had been shifting once again in a Bonapartist direction, de-emphasising mass mobilisation. It was also incorporating elements of the third entrenched form of modern authoritarianism (military dictatorship): especially after the pro-Kurdish HDP’s election victory in June 2015, Erdoğan started to relentlessly utilise the military against opponents. But now, given the pro-regime numbers on the streets (and soldiers once again declared an enemy of the nation), the fascistic actors within the regime have the opportunity to sustain mass mobilisation and take the country in a more totalitarian direction. As of yet, they have not squandered this chance.

After president Erdoğan’s invitation to people to flood into the streets, and face down the military rebels, mosques across the country also urged citizens to thwart the coup. In city centres, provincial towns, and inner cities, people climbed onto tanks clutching Turkish flags. The captured photography and video are likely to become as iconic as images of tank-blocking Chinese students in Tiananmen Square.

But these masses have done much, much more. They have attacked the pro-Kurdish party HDP (which has nothing to do with the coup attempt) in several towns. They have harassed alcohol consumers. Several clashes have broken out in Alevi (a religious minority) neighbourhoods and towns. This is the dark side of what has been celebrated by some as the democratic defence of the regime by the people.

This new ‘anti-militarist’ mass mobilisation in Turkey has been building up (as counter-revolt) ever since the anti-government Gezi protests in 2013, targeting minorities, alcohol consumers, and all kinds of opposition, as much as military personnel. In October 2015, close to 100 pro-Kurdish activists in Ankara were massacred in an ISIS-linked bombing. Witnesses saw police deploying tear-gas against survivors, and blocking ambulances trying to reach the injured. That tragedy is now coupled with mass action against the dead: during the recent anti-coup celebrations, ‘pro-democracy’ masses destroyed a monument to the Ankara victims. There is no question about where the sympathy of these masses lie.

Most of the pessimistic predictions about the aftermath of the failed coup have focused on how it will fulfil Erdoğan’s desire for an omnipotent presidency. The danger that awaits Turkey is much greater than that.
 
Surely this purge is going to be massively, massively damaging to the future of Turkey? If Erdogan genuinely wants to go ahead with this, we're going to see a massive number of experienced and capable people removed from the military, police force, education sector, law sector, and other similar sectors. It should be obvious to anyone that it's going to cause a major gap in these professions, and that newer, inexperienced people within these fields will not be able to automatically fill the gaps to the same standards.

That'll mean inferior policing, a weaker military, inferior education, and when you add in other problems like the almost certain decline of the tourism industry (since it'll no longer be a viable holiday destination), then the country is going to be seriously fecked because of one man's insane desire for complete power. He needs removed.
 
Surely this purge is going to be massively, massively damaging to the future of Turkey? If Erdogan genuinely wants to go ahead with this, we're going to see a massive number of experienced and capable people removed from the military, police force, education sector, law sector, and other similar sectors. It should be obvious to anyone that it's going to cause a major gap in these professions, and that newer, inexperienced people within these fields will not be able to automatically fill the gaps to the same standards.

That'll mean inferior policing, a weaker military, inferior education, and when you add in other problems like the almost certain decline of the tourism industry (since it'll no longer be a viable holiday destination), then the country is going to be seriously fecked because of one man's insane desire for complete power. He needs removed.
I don't think he cares. He wants complete control, and I'd argue he wants it quickly. I'd expect to see them turn into a sharia state very quickly. De-education, more hostile with the outside world and mass propaganda of his ideals.
 
Erdogan is going to get rid of everyone he thinks is a threat to him or just dislikes in this purge no matter if they were actually involved in the coup d'état or not.

Yep, wouldn't be surprised to see a Saddam style purge in the future

 
Yep, wouldn't be surprised to see a Saddam style purge in the future



Ah, possibly Saddam's finest moment - didn't the Ba'th send this video to every household in Iraq after it or is that an urban myth?
 
I don't think he cares. He wants complete control, and I'd argue he wants it quickly. I'd expect to see them turn into a sharia state very quickly. De-education, more hostile with the outside world and mass propaganda of his ideals.
Probably not. I don't think that Erdogan is an idiot. He wants total power in Turkey, but also wants Turkey to be a powerful country. Changing the state to an Islamic one won't achieve that. I think that he doesn't care for Islam but uses it to appeal to rural populations, but on the other side, around half of the country wants a secular Turkey.
Yep, wouldn't be surprised to see a Saddam style purge in the future


This would have been hilarious if it wasn't sad.
 
Ah, possibly Saddam's finest moment - didn't the Ba'th send this video to every household in Iraq after it or is that an urban myth?

My parents tell me it was broadcasted very regularly on state TV. Don't think they were sent video tapes.
 
My parents tell me it was broadcasted very regularly on state TV. Don't think they were sent video tapes.

Ha, a monthly reminder that your leader is an evil genius. They don't make 'em like Saddam anymore.

(Edit) think I got the video tape bit from something else, something like following the organized rape of a suspect's wife/daughter by Saddam's goons, they would send a tape of the act to the victim's family.
 
The best argument for a checks-and-balances democracy.

That's why I'm of the opinion that the check-and-balances, limitations of power and protection of political minority rights are even more important than suffrage itself in a democracy.
 
Turkey removes two dozen elected mayors in Kurdish militant crackdown
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-security-kurds-idUSKCN11H065

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Cumhuriyet CEO was arrested and Erdogan is pushing aggressively to reintroduce the death-penalty.

“Our government will take this [proposal on capital punishment] to parliament," he said in a speech in Ankara. (…) I am convinced that parliament will approve it, and when it comes back to me, I will ratify it,' says President Erdogan in a speech in Ankara”
 
No holding back anymore, arresting opposition (HDP) MPs now.

Also rumors of an imminent invasion of Iraq though I have no idea how reliable that is.
 
He's off his rocker.

The Turks should have finished the job a few months ago. Now they're stuck with an angry, paranoid, Islamist, Quasi-Ottoman dictator with dangerous delusions.
 
No holding back anymore, arresting opposition (HDP) MPs now.

Also rumors of an imminent invasion of Iraq though I have no idea how reliable that is.

They're in Iraq (and Syria) already.

As ISIS declines, Turkey moves in to try fill the vacuum.
 
But they haven't really invaded the Iraq yet, right? Or did I miss something?

Depends how you want to define 'invasion'. They've had troops sitting north-west of Mosul for months now.
 
Depends how you want to define 'invasion'. They've had troops sitting north-west of Mosul for months now.
Yeah ok that's the last status I knew about as well.
I think the rumours are about a full-on invasion of Iraq though so far that's obviously only rumours.