Turkey

Yeah ok that's the last status I knew about as well.
I think the rumours are about a full-on invasion of Iraq though so far that's obviously only rumours.

Honestly nothing would surprise me, the AKP-aligned media has certainly been beating that drum and whipping up nostalgia for the days when Mosul and Aleppo were ruled from Istanbul (and as we've discussed in the ISIS thread, Turkey actually has an old claim to Mosul which they've never forgotten).

If it happens, it won't go well for Turkey. Every decade or so there's an attempt by some regional or international player to 're-make' the region's politics, and there are always unintended, unforeseen consequences. The last successful attempt was the 1973 war which led to the brokering of the Israel-Egypt peace deal which put an end to the 'Arab-Israeli' wars. Since then we've had Saddam's war in Iran and Israel's in Lebanon during the 80s, Saddam's war in Kuwait and the Oslo Peace Process during the 90s, and then obviously the series of American feck-ups of the 2000s. Each of these was, in part, a consequence of what went before.

In terms of Turkey, the foundations laid by the Kemalist founders of the state helped keep Turkey out of all these messes. But those days are now over, and Erdogan is determined to plunge Turkey right back into the centre of the region's dysfunctional politics. It's the kind of thing that could very well re-make the region, but not in the way Erdogan believes.
 
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The Turkish military will have enough to do in Syria, where they might try to push to Raqqa. How could they possibly win anything in Iraq? There is really no favorable outcome for them. Erdogan might be crazy, but he won't be that crazy. He’ll try to influence the area via proxies/allies.
 
ISIS claimed a suicide attack in Diyarbakir today (although apparently the AKP media is blaming the PKK) - and now there is this, hope it's nothing:

 
Don't forget that Fethullah Gülen is also a despicable terrorist. Recep's ally for so long, he so suddenly and so coldly turned into a terrorist out of nowhere. He was such a charming, fun guy to be around prior to the change. Nobody saw it coming. Let's give Recep a round of applause for moving on, and absolutely don't forget that Fethullah totally did change and that's why he's a terrorist now.
 
Turks have fluffed a golden opportunity to get rid of this guy. Bet he will still be there when I'm celebrating my 50th. I am 25y/o
 
Attempted coup or whatever.

From what we now know, I'm not sure that can be considered like that. A lot of evidence suggests that he knew about it well in advance, and the people who orchestrated it weren't the sort you'd want running Turkey anyway i.e. they weren't the Kemalists.
 
Also, don't forget that he's been raising his own version of the Brownshirts. They're more than ready to do his bidding when he gives the signal. This has been a long time in the making. I'm relieved that I got out of there before it came to this.

Odds on the Sultan being assassinated?

Not good, but we can live in hope. I don't dare step foot in Turkey as long as he's still in power.
 
Also, don't forget that he's been raising his own version of the Brownshirts. They're more than ready to do his bidding when he gives the signal. This has been a long time in the making. I'm relieved that I got out of there before it came to this.



Not good, but we can live in hope. I don't dare step foot in Turkey as long as he's still in power.

What is the CHP doing in all of this? Are they supporting Erdogan (out of fear?)?
 
What is the CHP doing in all of this? Are they supporting Erdogan (out of fear?)?

They'll never support him, but they're impotent. You can completely discount them as a viable opposition in the sense that they'll actively oppose him and reverse the damage he's doing. The best they can do right now is to remain as an obdurate barrier between him and outright power. Even then, the day seems to be moving closer when he'll have no use for them. He only pandered to them in the wake of the attempted coup in order to prevent fires breaking out in other places.

Is that the Ottoman Youth Authority (Osmanli Ocaklari) mentioned in the article?

I don't see an article, but yes, that'll be the one I'm referring to, although they're not the only ones receiving weapons. It's supposedly being trained by the 'SADAT International Defense Consulting company', which has a reputation for training paramilitaries. He's basically ready for a civil war.
 
I don't see an article, but yes, that'll be the one I'm referring to, although they're not the only ones receiving weapons. It's supposedly being trained by the 'SADAT International Defense Consulting company', which has a reputation for training paramilitaries. He's basically ready for a civil war.

That's exactly what the article says, it's in the tweet I posted a few posts up.
 
They'll never support him, but they're impotent. You can completely discount them as a viable opposition in the sense that they'll actively oppose him and reverse the damage he's doing. The best they can do right now is to remain as an obdurate barrier between him and outright power. Even then, the day seems to be moving closer when he'll have no use for them. He only pandered to them in the wake of the attempted coup in order to prevent fires breaking out in other places.



I don't see an article, but yes, that'll be the one I'm referring to, although they're not the only ones receiving weapons. It's supposedly being trained by the 'SADAT International Defense Consulting company', which has a reputation for training paramilitaries. He's basically ready for a civil war.


Thanks. The article also mentions another guy with the name of “Doğu Perinçek”. Any comment on him?

Edit: a completely unrelated, but rather sad news: The biggest organized right-wing movement (counting members) in Germany are the Grey Wolves/Ülkü Ocakları ahead of the NPD.
 
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That's exactly what the article says, it's in the tweet I posted a few posts up.

I thought you were referring to an article in the link. Yeah, that guy knows his stuff. He was one of the people who had a hand in getting Erdoğan into power, or so I'm told.

Thanks. The article also mentions another guy with the name of “Doğu Perinçek”. Any comment on him?

I can't say I know a lot about him. He's the leader of a small party that has no representation in the Turkish parliament. I suppose, however, that he has the personality needed in there is to be a clash of wills. In other words, he's going to stand firm for the principles of the Turkish Republic. It's something I've always felt that a lot of CHP supporters aren't so keen to do.
 
Sorry if it is already mentioned, but the west has a real conundrum on their hands now. Turkey's location is very important for NATO, however if (when) they become a dictatorship very inconvenient questions will start to be asked. Actually, they are already:

Jump to minute 17. This reaction would be kind of funny, if the issues were not as serious.
 
Sorry if it is already mentioned, but the west has a real conundrum on their hands now. Turkey's location is very important for NATO, however if (when) they become a dictatorship very inconvenient questions will start to be asked. Actually, they are already:

Jump to minute 17. This reaction would be kind of funny, if the issues were not as serious.


Incirlik Air Base must be one of those 'core values'. Secretary General of boring and predictable rhetoric. What a knob.
 
Incirlik Air Base must be one of those 'core values'. Secretary General of boring and predictable rhetoric. What a knob.
Didn't they move the nuclear arsenal out of there already? Also the straits I guess are even higher in value. Putin's pipe dream.
 
Sorry if it is already mentioned, but the west has a real conundrum on their hands now. Turkey's location is very important for NATO, however if (when) they become a dictatorship very inconvenient questions will start to be asked. Actually, they are already:
The relationship with Turkey vis a vis the 'West' is about to get even more awkward.
 
Didn't they move the nuclear arsenal out of there already? Also the straits I guess are even higher in value. Putin's pipe dream.

A quick Google search shows that they moved them to Romania. I'd also question the wisdom of storing nuclear weapons in an increasingly totalitarian state that is leaning towards your biggest rival. Nonetheless, as long as this war continues to be prolonged and Incirlik remains very much in play as a result, I can't see America doing much beyond redundant statements about concerns for Turkey's democracy.
 
Why do you think Kemalists are best suited to run the state of turkey?

MHP want to wage war against Kurdish people and are in the pockets of the AKP, HDP have very questionable ties to the PKK and don't carry the trust of Turkish people, and the AKP is what we currently have. The CHP is the most reasonable party of all of them and easily the best option to bring something that resembles stability to the country.
 
MHP want to wage war against Kurdish people and are in the pockets of the AKP, HDP have very questionable ties to the PKK and don't carry the trust of Turkish people, and the AKP is what we currently have. The CHP is the most reasonable party of all of them and easily the best option to bring something that resembles stability to the country.
Good points. Wasn't it the kemalists that pushed turkification on the non-turks such as Kurds, Greeks, Caucasians and the very minority of Arabs?
 
A quick Google search shows that they moved them to Romania. I'd also question the wisdom of storing nuclear weapons in an increasingly totalitarian state that is leaning towards your biggest rival. Nonetheless, as long as this war continues to be prolonged and Incirlik remains very much in play as a result, I can't see America doing much beyond redundant statements about concerns for Turkey's democracy.


Nobody really cares about Turkish democracy, but foreign country could do little anyway. The USA and Europe are troubled, because Turkish foreign policy isn’t aligned with their own anymore.
 
Good points. Wasn't it the kemalists that pushed turkification on the non-turks such as Kurds, Greeks, Caucasians and the very minority of Arabs?

Everybody else in Turkey detests the Kemalists despite them having tried to make Turkey a progressive state. If the Kurds and conservative Anatolians weren't ready for a civil war, they'd both be aiming their vitriol at the CHP. They're all brainwashed from an early age to hate them, always neglecting the fact that they wouldn't exist if it weren't for Atatürk and his legacy.

Nobody really cares about Turkish democracy, but foreign country could do little anyway. The USA and Europe are troubled, because Turkish foreign policy isn’t aligned with their own anymore.

I don't expect America to do anything. In fact, I don't want it to. They're bad for the Turkish republic and are the ones who paved the way for Erdoğan to become who he is today. As far as Turkey is concerned, America has been a virus.
 
Sorry if it is already mentioned, but the west has a real conundrum on their hands now. Turkey's location is very important for NATO, however if (when) they become a dictatorship very inconvenient questions will start to be asked. Actually, they are already:

Jump to minute 17. This reaction would be kind of funny, if the issues were not as serious.

I hate politicians
 
It's really too bad the coup was unsuccessful. What's this story about Erdogan staying in power until 2029?
 
Recep Tayyip Erdogan: Turkey’s Executive President
http://blogs.cfr.org/cook/2017/01/17/recep-tayyip-erdogan-turkeys-executive-president/

A little more than twelve years ago, Turkey began membership negotiations to join the European Union. At the time it seemed to be the conclusion of a four-decade-long Turkish effort to become part of the West. The government of Turkey—then, as now, under the leadership of the Justice and Development Party (AKP)—had not exactly fulfilled all of the requirements to begin the process, but the European Commission reasoned that the very act of opening negotiations on the acquis communautaire would encourage the Turks to fulfill their obligations. I trace the path from this hopeful moment to Turkey’s current authoritarian reality in my upcoming book, False Dawn: Protest, Democracy, and Violence in the New Middle East. There is neither need nor space to give the whole story away here, but it is important to note that Turkey is about to reach the culmination—or denouement—of this fascinating and, for many Turks, dispiriting tale. Before the week is out, Turkey will become a full-fledged electoral autocracy.

Over the last week the freelance journalist Michael Sercan Daventry has been tracking a series of constitutional amendments the AKP-dominated Grand National Assembly has undertaken on his website, jamesinturkey.com. (Note that there is no actual “James”; it was a pseudonym for Daventry, whose work I highly recommend). Taken together these amendments will fundamentally alter Turkey’s political system, establishing the “executive presidency” that President Recep Tayyip Erdogan covets and, in the process, further undermining whatever remaining checks and balances there are (at least on paper) among the branches of Turkey’s government. The uninitiated might ask, “Isn’t Erdogan already president?” He is, but Turkey features a hybrid presidential-parliamentary system. Contrary to the common claim often made in the press, the Turkish presidency is not largely ceremonial. It has a variety of important powers including, but not limited to, the ability to call parliament into session, promulgate laws, resubmit draft legislation to the Grand National Assembly, call new parliamentary elections, and issue decrees with the force of law. Still, the locus of political power has always been in the prime ministry, and, by both law and tradition, Turkish presidents are supposed to exercise their powers in an “above politics” manner. It has not always worked that way, of course, but neutrality has been the norm that Turkey’s heads of state have claimed to uphold. Until now.

When Erdogan became president in August 2014, after eleven-and-a-half years as prime minister, he remained the central figure in Turkish politics. He empowered the presidency both formally, by availing himself of prerogatives previous officeholders had chosen not to use, and informally, by dint of the power and prestige he accumulated during his tenure as prime minister. On one level it makes no difference whether the AKP pushes through the amendments successfully or not because Erdogan already wields the power of the executive presidency. On another level, however, it is critical for Erdogan for two related reasons: legitimacy and legality. All politicians and political systems need both, but authoritarian leaders seem particularly eager to situate their nondemocratic practices in the legal institutions of the state. This way, Erdogan—like Egypt’s Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, Zimbabwe’s Robert Mugabe, Hungary’s Viktor Orban, and others—can claim without stretching credulity that whatever he is doing is perfectly legal. Ask a Turkish official why there are so many journalists in jail and they will respond that there is nothing they can do because the detention of journalists is well within the law. Erdogan will no doubt proclaim that the constitutional changes that will direct the vast majority of political power to his office reflects the democratic will of the people. There is a certain amount of “truthiness” to this claim, but according to Daventry and other observers, the AKP has been whipping votes ferociously and employing parliamentary maneuvers to undermine secret balloting, forcing those who might not support the executive presidency to vote for it out of fear. In Turkey’s present political climate this could mean absolutely anything, but wayward members of the ruling party would likely be accused of membership in or otherwise supporting a terrorist organization, as too many Turkish journalists can attest to.

Erdogan and his supporters have tried to sell the executive presidency on the idea that a shift to a purely presidential system is critical to Turkey’s stability. It is true that the country is unstable. Turkey is fighting a dirty little war with the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) and an offshoot called the Kurdistan Freedom Falcons. Moreover, the self-styled Islamic State is targeting the country, and the Turkish military is engaged in combat in Syria against another PKK affiliate, the People’s Protection Units. Add to these significant security problems the political uncertainty and massive purges after last July’s failed coup as well as an economy that is rapidly deteriorating and you have an array of tremendous challenges, but it is not altogether clear how the constitutional changes will help resolve these pressing problems. Erdogan has also used the memory of the political instability of the 1990s and early 2000s, when a series of coalition governments faltered due to ideological incompatibility, corruption, and infighting, as justification for his expansion of presidential powers. One shudders to think how the Motherland–True Path or the True Path–Welfare or the Democratic Left–Motherland–Nationalist Movement coalitions would have handled Turkey’s current multidimensional crises. This does not mean that Erdogan can return Turkish stability and prosperity, though no doubt he believes he can.

There is one other issue that Turks should consider as their representatives seek to formalize Erdogan’s personal power. Presidential systems tend to slide into authoritarianism more often than parliamentary systems. Then again, Turkey is already there.
 
With how the lira is currently performing against the dollar, the idea of Turkey voting to approve all of this seems very unlikely. That's the key issue, and whether or not Turks want to consider how presidential systems tend to slide towards authoritarianism is pretty insignificant. Even the morons in his heartlands can't look beyond the economy being more pivotal to their lives than his ego. It's always worth remembering, however, that Erdoğan is a fighter. They will have time between now and a referendum to work on it and ensure that they're fully ready to also try and influence the election in a variety of illegal ways. They've had enough practice by now.
 
With how the lira is currently performing against the dollar, the idea of Turkey voting to approve all of this seems very unlikely. That's the key issue, and whether or not Turks want to consider how presidential systems tend to slide towards authoritarianism is pretty insignificant. Even the morons in his heartlands can't look beyond the economy being more pivotal to their lives than his ego. It's always worth remembering, however, that Erdoğan is a fighter. They will have time between now and a referendum to work on it and ensure that they're fully ready to also try and influence the election in a variety of illegal ways. They've had enough practice by now.

It's hard to imagine him not getting his way now by some means.
 
It's hard to imagine him not getting his way now by some means.

Whatever means necessary that won't elicit enough publicity to compromise his position. What's happening in Turkey is anything but democratic, so I hope people aren't surprised if the military decides enough is enough.