Turkey


Yeah, WW2, a world war that ended in 1945.

Feel like doing 1960 and onwards? I hear from a lot of muslims how Islam and Islamic rule is superior to our Western way, but quite simple - the proof is in the pudding. Except a few oil states you will be hard pressed to find any muslim country that can even touch the GDP of a Western country. And that is just talking from an economic viewpoint, let's not even get started on human rights, gender equality and religious freedom.
 
Yeah, WW2, a world war that ended in 1945.

Feel like doing 1960 and onwards? I hear from a lot of muslims how Islam and Islamic rule is superior to our Western way, but quite simple - the proof is in the pudding. Except a few oil states you will be hard pressed to find any muslim country that can even touch the GDP of a Western country. And that is just talking from an economic viewpoint, let's not even get started on human rights, gender equality and religious freedom.

Why limit ourselves to the last 70 years or so? Especially considering the centuries-long, historically unprecedented bloody struggles within the West to have those values you speak of enshrined in favour of other 'Western values' which gave us fascistic nationalism and totalitarian socialism (and which appear far from dead in the West today).
 
Nah, Islamic rule and societies are clearly superior. That is why all muslim countries are such peaceful havens and you see us from the west fleeing in the hundreds of the thousands to these havens and democratic lightbeams.

Not even what I said. Also, I like how you label them as "muslim" countries and "us - the west" rather than poor countries with wars going on and developed countries.

By your definition citizens under the Islamic rule of Morocco are fleeing to Mexico right?
 
Yeah, WW2, a world war that ended in 1945.

Feel like doing 1960 and onwards? I hear from a lot of muslims how Islam and Islamic rule is superior to our Western way, but quite simple - the proof is in the pudding. Except a few oil states you will be hard pressed to find any muslim country that can even touch the GDP of a Western country. And that is just talking from an economic viewpoint, let's not even get started on human rights, gender equality and religious freedom.

You're choosing a small sample size of history. Guess what else came into existence after WW2: the current mapping of the middle east. Could it be that the rule/religion (which has been in existence for 1400 years) is not the problem but the boundaries? Especially since that is after which you see the struggle of so many nations.

I don't hear what you say from many muslims. Besides, the only country that has "Islamic rule" is probably Iran and Saudi Arabia. Ironically, both have extremely different set of laws. This is why you sound ignorant. You are creating some "Islamic rule" umbrella when that really means nothing.
 
Not even what I said. Also, I like how you label them as "muslim" countries and "us - the west" rather than poor countries with wars going on and developed countries.

By your definition citizens under the Islamic rule of Morocco are fleeing to Mexico right?

Morroco isn't an Islamic country to the same extent that a number of the Middle Eastern countries are.
 
Not even what I said. Also, I like how you label them as "muslim" countries and "us - the west" rather than poor countries with wars going on and developed countries.

By your definition citizens under the Islamic rule of Morocco are fleeing to Mexico right?

http://rap.sagepub.com/content/3/2/2053168016646392

"In 2012, there were six armed conflicts with more than 1000 battle deaths. All of them took place within Muslim countries—in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan, Somalia, Syria, and Yemen. Of the nine rebel groups in these conflicts, seven had an Islamist ideology."

Anyway, I am watching "Stranger Things" at the moment so won't even bother. Anyone that remotely try to claim that predominantly muslim countries isn't more likely to have issues regarding war, poverty, gender equality, education and religious freedom than Western democracies isn't really worth discussing with.
 
Morroco isn't an Islamic country to the same extent that a number of the Middle Eastern countries are.

A 98 % Muslim Country. Part of OIC. Pork consumption is forbidden officially in accordance to the Sharia law.

Or is Islamic a term only reserved to Sauid/Iran style governance?
 
A 98 % Muslim Country. Part of OIC. Pork consumption is forbidden officially in accordance to the Sharia law.

Or is Islamic a term only reserved to Sauid/Iran style governance?

No, but it's generally the extreme type Sharia rule people often refer to. Not that Morocco is necessarily a free and liberal country, but it's certainly far, far fecking better than some places out there, and still has an elected government to go with its constitutional monarchy. When people fear Turkey turning into an Islamic state, they presumably fear the idea of it becoming like Saudi Arabia, Iran, or even worse, like places such as Iraq or Syria. Not Morocco.
 
Also probably best answered by some Muslim women... not men speaking on thirty behalf! Which in a way would be the very point of the thread!

But I'm not sure if we have many Muslim women posters on this forum?
This perspective is interesting for sure, but as far as I am concerned no one is speaking on anyone's behalf here. It's individuals exchanging their views about a general issue, so everyone's entitled to their opinion. And a Muslim woman will also not automatically speak on behalf of other women living in Islamic societies.

So I think we should drop that idea of representation in this discussion, without denying that personal background can matter.

My question was originally a reply to @rotherham_red, so my first choice would still be that he answered it. And of course everyone else can give their opinion too.
 
No, but it's generally the extreme type Sharia rule people often refer to. Not that Morocco is necessarily a free and liberal country, but it's certainly far, far fecking better than some places out there, and still has an elected government to go with its constitutional monarchy. When people fear Turkey turning into an Islamic state, they presumably fear the idea of it becoming like Saudi Arabia, Iran, or even worse, like places such as Iraq or Syria. Not Morocco.

Well Islamic is the wrong word then. A ton of countries have Islamic laws and are doing fine. If one is to say Turkey will incorporate Islamic laws why must I or anyone assume they mean Saudi and Iran style laws?
 
Well Islamic is the wrong word then. A ton of countries have Islamic laws and are doing fine. If one is to say Turkey will incorporate Islamic laws why must I or anyone assume they mean Saudi and Iran style laws?


@2cents gave an assessment of the AKP's Islamist agenda a couple of pages back. The last sentence would be a direct answer to your question, but the whole post is worth reading.

Fair question.

The AK Party is basically the Turkish version of the Muslim Brotherhood - they represent what you can call populist Islamism. The Brotherhood and like-minded groups have never emphasized implementing the shari'ah as a priority of their political programs. They were founded and are typically run by laymen - professionals, administrators, etc. - not Muslim 'ulama. The emphasis of the Brotherhood has always been on seizing control of and consolidating power in the state, in advance of any program to implement the shari'a. In other words they envision a top-down Islamization, but they need to hold the reins of power in the state before anything else. The reason for this is due to their experience of repression at the hands of secular forces (the Turkish military, Nasser's regime in Egypt, the Tunisian regime, etc.) which led them to (wisely IMO) conclude that these societies weren't ready for a full-scale implementation of the shari'a yet, and any attempt to do so would inevitably alienate the most powerful factions in society. This is especially true in countries like Turkey and Tunisia, where secular ideology and institutions have been so firmly entrenched - but even Hamas, almost a decade into its rule of the Gaza Strip, has refused to fully implement the shari'a, seeing their rule as not fully consolidated (and probably waiting for the day they believe they'll capture the rest of Palestine). So the AK Party's Islamist orientation just isn't visible in society the way many might expect (i.e. as you would see in Saudi Arabia and Iran). The Brotherhood and its related groups are playing a much longer, cautious and more subtle game, best expressed, ironically, by this quote from Erdogan's arch-rival Fethullah Gulen:

"The existing system is still in power. Our friends who have positions in legislative and administrative bodies should learn its details and be vigilant all the time so that they can transform it and be more fruitful on behalf of Islam in order to carry out a nationwide restoration. However, they should wait until the conditions become more favorable. In other words, they should not come out too early."

On the other hand, these movements typically express their Islamist orientation through pan-Islamic solidarity in international affairs, which is what has driven Erdogan's popularity among many Muslims across the world, but which also leads him to make stupid statements like "Muslims are incapable of committing genocide". At a time when many Muslims feel on the defensive, it's natural for them to gravitate towards powerful leaders willing to step up on the world stage and defy convention. But it shouldn't blind them to the realities of the nature of these movements' ultimate goals which are, IMO, totalitarian.
 
Well Islamic is the wrong word then. A ton of countries have Islamic laws and are doing fine. If one is to say Turkey will incorporate Islamic laws why must I or anyone assume they mean Saudi and Iran style laws?

You've said in your previous post that Morocco have forbidden pork, and adhere to Sharia Law. In what way is a country that adheres to Sharia Law doing fine? It's outdated and archaic. The West, and our values, are far from perfect, but our societies are far, far better to live in than ones under Islamic rule.
 
You've said in your previous post that Morocco have forbidden pork, and adhere to Sharia Law. In what way is a country that adheres to Sharia Law doing fine? It's outdated and archaic. The West, and our values, are far from perfect, but our societies are far, far better to live in than ones under Islamic rule.

EDIT: What I previously wrote was misleading. By Sharia law all I meant was that the law is there in accordance to the Islamic religion. I think any law influenced by Islamic religion is sharia but I may be wrong. Of course, most sharia law is outdated.

But don't you think Morocco is doing fine? Again you talk about "Islamic rule" -- what is that?
 
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Just like "Islamic governance" gets a bad name, so does "sharia law". You can implement an aspect of sharia law without implementing the outdated and barbaric laws that some countries do

Sorry to butt in, but can you give working examples?

A country that practices sharia law, no matter to what extent (whether "soft" sharia, as you mention, or full on Saudi medieval sharia), effectively gives up all religious freedom either explicitly, or indirectly by empowering the clerics who in turn influence the population to disdain other religions.

I cannot think of any Islamic constituted country that is remotely tolerant or free.
 
Sorry to butt in, but can you give working examples?

A country that practices sharia law, no matter to what extent (whether "soft" sharia, as you mention, or full on Saudi medieval sharia), effectively gives up all religious freedom either explicitly, or indirectly by empowering the clerics who in turn influence the population to disdain other religions.

I cannot think of any Islamic constituted country that is remotely tolerant or free.

I edited my post as I think it was misleading.

I think Morocco is an example like I stated. As is Dubai (you can't publicly drink alcohol last I heard). There are many countries that have these laws but don't give up religious freedom.
 
EDIT: What I previously wrote was misleading. By Sharia law all I meant was that the law is there in accordance to the Islamic religion. I think any law influenced by Islamic religion is sharia but I may be wrong. Of course, most sharia law is outdated.

But don't you think Morocco is doing fine? Again you talk about "Islamic rule" -- what is that?

It's done alright...but again, you say yourself about pork being forbidden. That's incredibly archaic and backwards. Simple, yeah, but an example of why many people will perceive Western society as being ahead of Islamic ruled countries in many respects.
 
I edited my post as I think it was misleading.

I think Morocco is an example like I stated. As is Dubai (you can't publicly drink alcohol last I heard). There are many countries that have these laws but don't give up religious freedom.

Dubai's incredibly backwards, though. I'm fairly sure people there can be arrested for as much as kissing in public, and holding hands with a partner is even frowned upon. It's almost impossible to practice homosexuality in places like Dubai and not be frowned upon, and you mentioned yourself about alcohol. Is this the sort of society we should be looking upon as successful socially?
 
It's done alright...but again, you say yourself about pork being forbidden. That's incredibly archaic and backwards. Simple, yeah, but an example of why many people will perceive Western society as being ahead of Islamic ruled countries in many respects.

Dubai's incredibly backwards, though. I'm fairly sure people there can be arrested for as much as kissing in public, and holding hands with a partner is even frowned upon. It's almost impossible to practice homosexuality in places like Dubai and not be frowned upon, and you mentioned yourself about alcohol. Is this the sort of society we should be looking upon as successful socially?

First of, I don't see how banning pork is "backward". I may be wrong about this, but isn't the consumption of dog meat legal in Korea and illegal in America? It's just different values. The banning of pork is also a law most of the citizens would agree upon. I see nothing backward in that at all.

As for Dubai, last I visited was in 2012. I hear that the clubs/bars have plenty of alcohol as do the restaurants. I didn't have the chance to visit any, but from what I hear the social scene is pretty lively. I did witness a college couple holding hands and kissing. They were sitting in some sort of office building so I don't know if that is public or not. In any case, I think not drinking alcohol publicly (I'm not even sure if this really is the law) is probably in accordance with the social norms of the country -- the people want it that way.

EDIT: I am no expert on Dubai but I live in North Carolina and I have visited Dubai several times. Outside of the big cities, North Carolina is way more backwards than any part of Dubai I've been to. Try saying you don't believe in God in Dubai and then say the same thing at some of the towns here in North Carolina and you will experience which place truly is "incredibly backwards". But this is not your point as NC hasn't passed a law for that -- I am just saying this in reply to "dubai is incredibly backwards"
 
I still want to know what "Islamic ruled" means. Countries with a muslim majority? Countries where church and state is not separated? Countries that have some laws that are influenced directly by Islam?
 
But, for example, what if a woman in an Islamic society objects against a specific role she is restricted to, or against limitations concerning the fulfillment of her individual needs.

Is she right or wrong then?

(This debate probably deserves its own thread. On the other hand this exact issue is crucial in regard to the future of Turkey, too.)
I can't speak for the whole religion, as I'm only a layperson, but from my own reading and perspective, there is nothing in Islam which limits or prohibits females from playing an active role in society. For instance, Aishah (one of the wives of the Prophet) is respected as one of Islam's greatest scholars, and had led entire battalions during periods of war in Islam's early years, and a Muslim woman opened the first university in the world (al-Qarawiyyin) in Fes, Morocco. These are just two examples of the contributions of Muslim women. Looking further forward, my sisters are all self-made, independent professional women who don't rely on a male to do anything for them, and all of them are sincere believers in the religion, who practice it to the best of their ability.

Islam isn't a homogeneous entity, and the way it is practiced can differ from country to country, heck from town to town even! As with everything that has existed for over a millennia, the tenets and fundamentals of Islam have often interacted with the host cultures of the different countries. So in places like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc, there is a very dour view of homosexuality and the place of women in society. Yet like those examples highlight, Islam itself never precluded women from being all they could be. What is a barrier, are the social attitudes inherent within these communities, which are more often than not resultant from the cultures of these communities.
 
First of, I don't see how banning pork is "backward". I may be wrong about this, but isn't the consumption of dog meat legal in Korea and illegal in America? It's just different values. The banning of pork is also a law most of the citizens would agree upon. I see nothing backward in that at all.

As for Dubai, last I visited was in 2012. I hear that the clubs/bars have plenty of alcohol as do the restaurants. I didn't have the chance to visit any, but from what I hear the social scene is pretty lively. I did witness a college couple holding hands and kissing. They were sitting in some sort of office building so I don't know if that is public or not. In any case, I think not drinking alcohol publicly (I'm not even sure if this really is the law) is probably in accordance with the social norms of the country -- the people want it that way.

EDIT: I am no expert on Dubai but I live in North Carolina and I have visited Dubai several times. Outside of the big cities, North Carolina is way more backwards than any part of Dubai I've been to. Try saying you don't believe in God in Dubai and then say the same thing at some of the towns here in North Carolina and you will experience which place truly is "incredibly backwards". But this is not your point as NC hasn't passed a law for that -- I am just saying this in reply to "dubai is incredibly backwards"[/QUOTE]

I find the consumption of dog meat (more so the way they sometimes kill them) to be quite barbaric and awful (like bull fighting in Spain), but the difference in such a situation is that you've got the choice not to participate, or to do so if you wish. Banning something as simple as pork demonstrates a restriction on the freedom to do as you wish without interference - something that no country can follow fully, but will generally follow in regards to food stuffs.

And as for Dubai, I appreciate that you've been and have perhaps seen a more relaxed side, but it's an incredibly backwards place in certain regards. People are quite literally jailed for homosexual activity - that's absurdly backwards, and no amount of values will be able to convince any reasonable person otherwise.
 
I can't speak for the whole religion, as I'm only a layperson, but from my own reading and perspective, there is nothing in Islam which limits or prohibits females from playing an active role in society. For instance, Aishah (one of the wives of the Prophet) is respected as one of Islam's greatest scholars, and had led entire battalions during periods of war in Islam's early years, and a Muslim woman opened the first university in the world (al-Qarawiyyin) in Fes, Morocco. These are just two examples of the contributions of Muslim women. Looking further forward, my sisters are all self-made, independent professional women who don't rely on a male to do anything for them, and all of them are sincere believers in the religion, who practice it to the best of their ability.

Islam isn't a homogeneous entity, and the way it is practiced can differ from country to country, heck from town to town even! As with everything that has existed for over a millennia, the tenets and fundamentals of Islam have often interacted with the host cultures of the different countries. So in places like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc, there is a very dour view of homosexuality and the place of women in society. Yet like those examples highlight, Islam itself never precluded women from being all they could be. What is a barrier, are the social attitudes inherent within these communities, which are more often than not resultant from the cultures of these communities.

So if I understand you correctly, you would firmly distinguish between Sharia law and local traditions, saying the former does not restrict women's liberties in any way, while such occurrences have to be blamed on the latter?
 
So if I understand you correctly, you would firmly distinguish between Sharia law and local traditions, saying the former does not restrict women's liberties in any way, while such occurrences have to be blamed on the latter?
Not quite as simplistic as that, but generally yes.

Islam is a 1,400 year old religion, and as such it embodies socially conservative norms, that emphasises the separate roles of men and women. That doesn't mean that women can't work and have fulfilling lives, but that their priorities should be the making of the home. Attitudes that wouldn't be out of place and considered normal in England only 50-75 years ago.

The best way I can describe it is men were made to do the things that women can't do, and likewise, women were made to do the things that men can't do.

Now, that might be an unpalatable notion to you, and I wouldn't disagree with you.

But like I said to Grinner, it doesn't make it any less right or wrong, and vice versa, with the way I see things going in the West, where someone's gender can be so superficial and superfluous that it can depend on the mood of the person when he/she wakes up in the morning, I find such a notion utterly ridiculous and wonder whatever the feck else will be developing during my lifetime... But I won't decry the whole societal structure of the West as a result, as I can see the whole picture, and can see many agreeable and Islamically compatible things within western society too.

My personal philosophy is to live and let live, and it is a Quranic principle too. If I was to have come into contact with a female who for whatever reason had disagreed with Islam, it'd be no skin off my nose and I would quietly go about my own business.


At the end of the day, judgement is with God only, not us imperfect mortals.
 
Frankly this chest-thumping about the superiority of 'Western values' is self-congratulatory and complacent. These values have been adopted by many in the non-Western world, but have also provoked resistance, whether it be in the form of Islamism, Asian Values, Hindutva, Russian Nationalism, Liberation Theology, (New) Confucionism, etc. Nothing specifically Islamic about resistance to 'Western values'. Furthermore, on any scale of measurement the most destructive resistance to 'Western values' has come from within the West itself, in the form of Fascism and Communism, and has only been relegated to the margins of Western society for a rather brief moment in history - we just happen to be fortunate enough to live in that moment (for now).
 
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So if I understand you correctly, you would firmly distinguish between Sharia law and local traditions, saying the former does not restrict women's liberties in any way, while such occurrences have to be blamed on the latter?

Restrictions of women's liberties are to be blamed on misuse/harsh implementations of sharia law and culture. Saudi, Iran etc.
 
Frankly this chest-thumping about the superiority of 'Western values' is self-congratulatory and complacent. These values have been adopted by many in the non-Western world, but have also provoked resistance, whether it be in the form of Islamism, Asian Values, Hindutva, Russian Nationalism, Liberation Theology, Confucionism, etc. Nothing specifically Islamic about resistance to 'Western values'. Furthermore, on any scale of measurement the most destructive resistance to 'Western values' has come from within the West itself, in the form of Fascism and Communism, and has only been relegated to the margins of Western society for a rather brief moment in history - we just happen to be fortunate enough to live in that moment (for now).
I'm not sure about that. I'd argue western values are a very recent development, and that they're a reaction to fascism and communism rather than the other way around. Europe was ruled by an elite of monarchs, dukes and the wealthy and it wasn't until after the world wars that common people started getting political power and human rights. You could argue that America was the first ideologically western country (if you ignore their race relations), but the closest they got to fascism was McCarthyism and have only ever had a very low number of powerless communists. It would also explain why their closest long term allies have gone down a similar ideological path.
 
So what's the greater implications of Turkey becoming an Islamic state? How does this affect NATO and EU? The Middle East?
A new power struggle as the US slowly and painfully continues to try to extricate itself from the mess it instigated. Turkey, SA, Iran, Egypt, all vying for what they see as their place as a regional power. NATO will continue to be less relevant, unless Russia decides to go all Phil-Jones-face.

Factor in Israel (edit: and the Kurds!) and the low price of oil, and, well, it'll be interesting.
 
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I'm not sure about that. I'd argue western values are a very recent development, and that they're a reaction to fascism and communism rather than the other way around. Europe was ruled by an elite of monarchs, dukes and the wealthy and it wasn't until after the world wars that common people started getting political power and human rights. You could argue that America was the first ideologically western country (if you ignore their race relations), but the closest they got to fascism was McCarthyism and have only ever had a very low number of powerless communists. It would also explain why their closest long term allies have gone down a similar ideological path.

I've always understood what people mean by 'Western values' to indicate the individualist Enlightenment ideas ultimately enshrined in the Western political and social order over the course of two hundred or so years, and fascism and other forms of political collectivism to be born out of the reaction to those ideas from the Romantic period onwards. I'm going to take a leap and speculate that this doesn't really apply to America as something of a historical and geographic anomaly (but I've not really thought it through).
 
Frankly this chest-thumping about the superiority of 'Western values' is self-congratulatory and complacent. These values have been adopted by many in the non-Western world, but have also provoked resistance, whether it be in the form of Islamism, Asian Values, Hindutva, Russian Nationalism, Liberation Theology, (New) Confucionism, etc. Nothing specifically Islamic about resistance to 'Western values'. Furthermore, on any scale of measurement the most destructive resistance to 'Western values' has come from within the West itself, in the form of Fascism and Communism, and has only been relegated to the margins of Western society for a rather brief moment in history - we just happen to be fortunate enough to live in that moment (for now).
Fully agree mate, and it was precisely this point that I was trying to elude to, but you put it more eloquently than I ever could.
 
Frankly this chest-thumping about the superiority of 'Western values' is self-congratulatory and complacent. These values have been adopted by many in the non-Western world, but have also provoked resistance, whether it be in the form of Islamism, Asian Values, Hindutva, Russian Nationalism, Liberation Theology, (New) Confucionism, etc. Nothing specifically Islamic about resistance to 'Western values'. Furthermore, on any scale of measurement the most destructive resistance to 'Western values' has come from within the West itself, in the form of Fascism and Communism, and has only been relegated to the margins of Western society for a rather brief moment in history - we just happen to be fortunate enough to live in that moment (for now).

Oh yeah, I'm not trying to talk about how great Western values are, or how perfect they are; many of our own values are/have been fecked up, and have caused a great deal of misery around the world.

But the argument originated with the belief of some that it wouldn't be that bad for Turkey to become a more Islamic state as opposed to a Western one - I don't think that's fundamentally true at all, as Islamic states with Sharia Law and other such problems are typically much, much more restrictive and backwards on certain freedoms than a lot of major Western countries. I don't think that's problematic or shows superiority at all - most would agree that freedoms in the UK, Germany or France are far, far greater than those in any Islamic state. That's not to say that our own values are at all perfect, though, or that we don't have our own pressing issues.
 
Islam itself never precluded women from being all they could be.

Restrictions of women's liberties are to be blamed on misuse/harsh implementations of sharia law and culture. Saudi, Iran etc.

I'm certainly a layman too, but from what I know I don't find these notions credible at all. (I have noticed the difference in your respective arguments, so I'm not trying to lump them together.)

Then again I don't think we should start throwing Surahs and Hadiths at each other in this thread, so it's better to lay this issue to rest for now.
 
Like I said mate, it's all relative. What might be palatable to you, might not be to someone else.

It's really not that deep :)

But like you said, it's probably best to agree to disagree. Nice discussion all the same
I'm certainly a layman too, but from what I know I don't find these notions credible at all. (I have noticed the difference in your respective arguments, so I'm not trying to lump them together.)

Then again I don't think we should start throwing Surahs and Hadiths at each other in this thread, so it's better to lay this issue to rest for now.
 
Oh yeah, I'm not trying to talk about how great Western values are, or how perfect they are; many of our own values are/have been fecked up, and have caused a great deal of misery around the world.

But the argument originated with the belief of some that it wouldn't be that bad for Turkey to become a more Islamic state as opposed to a Western one - I don't think that's fundamentally true at all, as Islamic states with Sharia Law and other such problems are typically much, much more restrictive and backwards on certain freedoms than a lot of major Western countries. I don't think that's problematic or shows superiority at all - most would agree that freedoms in the UK, Germany or France are far, far greater than those in any Islamic state. That's not to say that our own values are at all perfect, though, or that we don't have our own pressing issues.

Don't get me wrong, I deeply dislike the direction Erdogan is taking the country - but I dislike it as much for the clear resemblance it bears to the totalitarian movements of 20th century Europe (and it must not be forgotten that the Muslim Brotherhood came of age during that era and was heavily influenced by those movements) as for the prospect of more shari'ah in society, something that a lot of Turks clearly want anyway.
 
Restrictions of women's liberties are to be blamed on misuse/harsh implementations of sharia law and culture. Saudi, Iran etc.
Yes, it's a mixture of religion and tradition, which are difficult to un-wind (see: US 20th century social movements).

Some people are happy to live under traditional values, as I experienced growing up in an highly strict sect of Christianity. And that includes women being subordinate to men, as many women would find the opposite perverted. We cannot change that in an instant with words like 'Democracy' or 'Freedom.' It has to happen organically, just like it did in the West.
 
I've always understood what people mean by 'Western values' to indicate the individualist Enlightenment ideas ultimately enshrined in the Western political and social order over the course of two hundred or so years, and fascism and other forms of political collectivism to be born out of the reaction to those ideas from the Romantic period onwards. I'm going to take a leap and speculate that this doesn't really apply to America as something of a historical and geographic anomaly (but I've not really thought it through).
The enlightenment was really a response to the churches power in the previous centuries. It called for the separation of church and state more than anything else. Individualism/individual enlightenment is more of a 1960s thing, you've got plenty of philosophers who called for individualism much earlier but I'd wager a guess that as few people read them then as now. France was early to the individualism party, and they haven't looked back. It wasn't until after the wars that what we think of as western politics, democracy and human rights started being born.

If you look at fascism it's really not that different to the monarchies that they often followed (German Kaisers, Russian Tzars, Italian kings). The only exception was that fascism started at a particularly tumultuous time thanks to the plateau in war in technology, making it extreme and violent, and allowing the dictators to hold more power than the kings they followed.

I'm also inclined to think Communism was a logical response to industrialisation. Workers ownership over the means of production and all that. Albeit the implementation was far from that.
 
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Frankly this chest-thumping about the superiority of 'Western values' is self-congratulatory and complacent. These values have been adopted by many in the non-Western world, but have also provoked resistance, whether it be in the form of Islamism, Asian Values, Hindutva, Russian Nationalism, Liberation Theology, (New) Confucionism, etc. Nothing specifically Islamic about resistance to 'Western values'. Furthermore, on any scale of measurement the most destructive resistance to 'Western values' has come from within the West itself, in the form of Fascism and Communism, and has only been relegated to the margins of Western society for a rather brief moment in history - we just happen to be fortunate enough to live in that moment (for now).

This really had to be said.

But I agree less with other parts of that post.

Totalitarism theory isn't cutting the cake for me, because it obliterates the barbaric history of Western Anti-Communism after World War II. Just take a look at what the "Free World" contributed to the bloodbaths in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Chile, El Salvador, Congo (...) before the collapse of the Warsaw Pact. And in several of these and other conflicts, they played an explicitely anti-democratic role, too.

So this "Western values" moniker is as much a propaganda tool and identitarian ticket as it is a crude adaption of liberal philosophy.

The idea of realized individual freedom on the other hand is a fundamentally important and universally relevant concept. But while it originated in Western thought, it should really not be confused with "the West" as a political and economic entity. Too often they were in stark contrast to each other.
 
Frankly this chest-thumping about the superiority of 'Western values' is self-congratulatory and complacent. These values have been adopted by many in the non-Western world, but have also provoked resistance, whether it be in the form of Islamism, Asian Values, Hindutva, Russian Nationalism, Liberation Theology, (New) Confucionism, etc. Nothing specifically Islamic about resistance to 'Western values'. Furthermore, on any scale of measurement the most destructive resistance to 'Western values' has come from within the West itself, in the form of Fascism and Communism, and has only been relegated to the margins of Western society for a rather brief moment in history - we just happen to be fortunate enough to live in that moment (for now).
Excellent post, I couldn't of put it better myself.
 
Why limit ourselves to the last 70 years or so? Especially considering the centuries-long, historically unprecedented bloody struggles within the West to have those values you speak of enshrined in favour of other 'Western values' which gave us fascistic nationalism and totalitarian socialism (and which appear far from dead in the West today).

Because in the West we have something called "progress". And it is real! For example, we no longer hang or jail homosexuals.