Whatever about anything else, Rust going through "Carcosa" was some spectacular shit. So claustrophobic and unsettling.
Television True Detective | Season 2 Spoilers
- Thread starter Dirty Schwein
- Start date
Yeah, the atmosphere was top notch. I particularly liked the shot of the flare illuminating them dying in the den. I also quite liked the little fade in and outs. Stylistically the thing was faultless.
The real thing they had to do was not include the wider "cult conspiracy" storyline at all. Because there was absolutely no point to it other than to string along the episodes with a bigger, more all encompassing sense of danger. In fact although I thought the initial conceit of a multi-time-framed unsolved story was great, in the end the modern day part was a huge let down.
And I've been championing the "character > plot" thing since about ep.3. I loved the fact it wasn't a "follow the hidden clues you screencap gimps" kind of mystery show. It's not that we didn't get all the answers, it's the sheer scope of the lack of answers we thought were at least the base requirement for the show. It's one thing to let the baddies get away (THAT's the world we live in) but another to not even tell us who the baddies are, or why they were killing people in the first place, or why all of them were protecting Scareface Redneck McEnglish accent anyway. The whole conspiracy angle was a complete waste of time. It was basically just one crazy creepy baddie in the flashbacks (which was satisfying) and then another, slightly fatter version of him in the present day (which wasn't)
The real thing they had to do was not include the wider "cult conspiracy" storyline at all. Because there was absolutely no point to it other than to string along the episodes with a bigger, more all encompassing sense of danger. In fact although I thought the initial conceit of a multi-time-framed unsolved story was great, in the end the modern day part was a huge let down.
And I've been championing the "character > plot" thing since about ep.3. I loved the fact it wasn't a "follow the hidden clues you screencap gimps" kind of mystery show. It's not that we didn't get all the answers, it's the sheer scope of the lack of answers we thought were at least the base requirement for the show. It's one thing to let the baddies get away (THAT's the world we live in) but another to not even tell us who the baddies are, or why they were killing people in the first place, or why all of them were protecting Scareface Redneck McEnglish accent anyway. The whole conspiracy angle was a complete waste of time. It was basically just one crazy creepy baddie in the flashbacks (which was satisfying) and then another, slightly fatter version of him in the present day (which wasn't)
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That was hilarious. Almost exactly as expected. A relief to see most people more or less calling it as it is, terrific production and acting aside.
To sort of answer your questions, the writer is saying the very fact that those things remain unanswered is integral to the show's 'plot' which was always meant to be secondary to character anyways. Amateurish cop out if you can't deliver the latter.
The writing was kind of on the wall with the constant intimations of the degree of profundity they were gunning for. Any decent writer would already know that's impossible and the best you can do is tell an old story in a compelling way.
With the show's going out of its way to play whack-a-mole with not only all the cliches of "Southern Enlightenment" but also numerous genre elements, all the while claiming that it's all going somewhere... From a literary standpoint the only way out was an insanely perfectly executed emotional payoff. Which they didn't deliver, per:
Exactly.
From the writer's standpoint, that's a critical mirroring element re the "Southern Enlightenment" hero character of the loner Cohle, who's the opposite of the hypocritical "mask-wearing" fundamental Christian set that is both helpless before and also perhaps even gives rise to the dark deformities that arise naturally from existence. He would never leave that out. You could tell he was absolutely married to that particular element.
Hundred ways to weave that into the ending to make it more poignant.
Perfect breakdown. Great read.
To sort of answer your questions, the writer is saying the very fact that those things remain unanswered is integral to the show's 'plot' which was always meant to be secondary to character anyways. Amateurish cop out if you can't deliver the latter.
The writing was kind of on the wall with the constant intimations of the degree of profundity they were gunning for. Any decent writer would already know that's impossible and the best you can do is tell an old story in a compelling way.
With the show's going out of its way to play whack-a-mole with not only all the cliches of "Southern Enlightenment" but also numerous genre elements, all the while claiming that it's all going somewhere... From a literary standpoint the only way out was an insanely perfectly executed emotional payoff. Which they didn't deliver, per:
Exactly.
From the writer's standpoint, that's a critical mirroring element re the "Southern Enlightenment" hero character of the loner Cohle, who's the opposite of the hypocritical "mask-wearing" fundamental Christian set that is both helpless before and also perhaps even gives rise to the dark deformities that arise naturally from existence. He would never leave that out. You could tell he was absolutely married to that particular element.
Hundred ways to weave that into the ending to make it more poignant.
Perfect breakdown. Great read.
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Carcosa scene was fantastic, set design on that was top class.
Ultimately I'm gonna judge it harshly and say I felt a little underwhelmed by the ending but then I think that is a lot to do with Season 2. If we knew for certain these characters were returning, then they have unfinished business and they could quite easily dissapear down a rabbit hole of conspiracy so basically what seem like loose ends now are just the thread of whats to come. So if it makes sense, if they are going to do another season with Marty and Cohle I'd feel like the ending was alright, but if they aren't doing another or re-casting for a seperate story then I'm a little dissapointed with it.
It set the standard so high in the first 5 episodes that anything less than a perfect ending was always going to be bit of a let down, those first few episodes though were incredible TV.
Ultimately I'm gonna judge it harshly and say I felt a little underwhelmed by the ending but then I think that is a lot to do with Season 2. If we knew for certain these characters were returning, then they have unfinished business and they could quite easily dissapear down a rabbit hole of conspiracy so basically what seem like loose ends now are just the thread of whats to come. So if it makes sense, if they are going to do another season with Marty and Cohle I'd feel like the ending was alright, but if they aren't doing another or re-casting for a seperate story then I'm a little dissapointed with it.
It set the standard so high in the first 5 episodes that anything less than a perfect ending was always going to be bit of a let down, those first few episodes though were incredible TV.
They could bring them back anytime in the future, so who knows?
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For a series that was at times a masterclass in writing and direction, that green scene was a ridiculous fecking dip.
What do you think. Was it a 'Let's give Marty a detective moment!' moment.
I immediately thought that's what it was for, but they could've still done that with a more realistic break-through. I also thought it was partly due to time constraints, they basically solved the case in about 3 minutes of screen-time. It didn't bother me that much if I'm honest, but it wasn't great.
Exactly. Mark of a bad writer. Just the fact that they either thought the audience couldn't possibly be disappointed, or that it was a serendipitous moment that would play that way onscreen.
You can probably make allowances for every single bit of ridiculousness in that scene, from the fact it was a semi random house they canvassed years ago that Marty just remembered because of the word green, to the fact the picture of it was in the first box he looked in, to the fact they'd taken two identically framed pictures of the same house, 20 years apart for some reason, to the fact an old lady in a nursing home remembered very easily and clearly the men who painted her house 20 years ago, to the fact they just found the killer by googling him, to the fact it took one of them more than several lines into the googling to realise, almost dismissively, that the company's name was the same name as the old dead sheriff they'd JUST been told was responsible for covering up the initial investigation, to the fact that they'd shown the guy wearing green ear muffs in an earlier episode but somehow decided to go with this house painting nonsense instead, to the fact that a guy would accidentally PAINT HIS EARS GREEN!! whilst painting a house. And that this would be the single definitive thing that cracks the case.
I can think of semi reasonable explanations for all of these if I try. All combined though is pretty hard to justify. And it's not even my main problem with the episode.
But we probably should've noticed it from the earlier, asylum scene - which was the first one I immediately thought was a bit cliche, and which someone else pointed out was an implausible interrogation they surely would've carried out earlier - that the actual detective stuff was Pizzolato's weak spot. Which I can forgive because I really liked most of the writing, and dialogue, and for one writer to write 5 or 6 such great episodes is still a fantastic achievement.
It's just a shame that endings so often define your entire attitudes to things. I hate to bring up Breaking Bad again, especially since I've been (and am) dismissive of comparisons with it, but it certainly makes me appreciate the ending to that more, which I didn't really love, but which at least held up it's end of the bargain.
Being positive though, I did like the last line. It was show of good lines, and that was a fairly fitting one.
The thing with Lost though was that however divisive the ending, there was an obvious, excusable reason for it. The writers were several, if not dozens of different people, trying to string along a six year plot and then retrospectively hash out an acceptable ending. This is the complete opposite. One writer, one story, one season. It's the perfect recipe for avoiding a Lost like finale.
Yeah it's pretty hard to disagree with it. Every writer worth their salt wants to fight against conventions, but in the end there are some that are just unavoidably needed to stop you becoming rambling and aimless.
This being the most obvious problem
I can think of semi reasonable explanations for all of these if I try. All combined though is pretty hard to justify. And it's not even my main problem with the episode.
But we probably should've noticed it from the earlier, asylum scene - which was the first one I immediately thought was a bit cliche, and which someone else pointed out was an implausible interrogation they surely would've carried out earlier - that the actual detective stuff was Pizzolato's weak spot. Which I can forgive because I really liked most of the writing, and dialogue, and for one writer to write 5 or 6 such great episodes is still a fantastic achievement.
It's just a shame that endings so often define your entire attitudes to things. I hate to bring up Breaking Bad again, especially since I've been (and am) dismissive of comparisons with it, but it certainly makes me appreciate the ending to that more, which I didn't really love, but which at least held up it's end of the bargain.
Being positive though, I did like the last line. It was show of good lines, and that was a fairly fitting one.
I loved LOST as well.
Think this is my favorite season of television ever
The thing with Lost though was that however divisive the ending, there was an obvious, excusable reason for it. The writers were several, if not dozens of different people, trying to string along a six year plot and then retrospectively hash out an acceptable ending. This is the complete opposite. One writer, one story, one season. It's the perfect recipe for avoiding a Lost like finale.
Yeah it's pretty hard to disagree with it. Every writer worth their salt wants to fight against conventions, but in the end there are some that are just unavoidably needed to stop you becoming rambling and aimless.
This being the most obvious problem
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I thought the Green ears were a bit shallow, but the only question I wanted to know was Why stage Dora Lange and the other girl about 17 years apart if the cult wants to make it a secret? The other rich killers may be long since dead, as they make a symbolic show of Daddy Childress, probably Errol got too big for them to play the stupid legworker.
Also, when Cohle meets Errol for the first time, he already knew about a tall man with scars who used to hang out with Dora Lange. It's a pretty big miss for him, not even following up. It could have all been over at Episode 3.
They did try to cover that in the final episode when he's sitting in bed. It wasn't the smoothest bit of writing a bit like the green ears thing, but it was plausible.
Did we see him even wear them once ? I can only remember him wearing those big ass glasses on his lawn mower but like you said, it still could have been a logical thing to conclude and use as a break in the case.
And we still don't know why some of the bodies were left out in the open but that's probably less of an issue considering the guy in charge is either suffering from multiple personality disorder or just likes showboating his range of accents before flicking his sisters bean. The English one was very Oliver Reed.
That's what grates me. Some questions could have been answered while leaving a lot of them unanswered.
We did not seem him wearing green earmuffs. At least not the two times we saw him prior to the finale. Don't know where people are getting this from.
I think I mentioned on another forum, or maybe this one? I could see it coming from mid season, this wasn't the type of show that was going to tie everything up into a neat little bow, I even suspected that there would be no closure and the case wouldn't be solved so I got that bit wrong. I knew it would make a few people unhappy but so what? That's not really what the show was about...
9/10
9/10
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I was expecting there to be a certain level of closure (i.e. more than this) and far more of a bittersweet ending to the show, instead we got very little closure at all and actually a pretty happy ending that didn't really fit for me.
It's the writers first real attempt? first season.... I'm sure he'll take on board the internet's rage and come back better for it. Meanwhile, I thought it was a good first effort.
Brilliant finale, loved it!
Oh yeah. I'll still look forward to the second season. There was lots of promise there for sure. Like I said in many ways it was a victim of the high standards that it set for itself early doors.
Maybe next time around it won't blow it's wad in the first half and actually build to a satisfying climax rather than fizzle out.
@Mockney the old lady also remembered the exact sum paid for the paint job. That was ridiculous, as if it was one of the highlights of her life
Well the old woman scene (and the green ear nonsense that preceded it) was entirely superfluous as I pointed out earlier. All it did was confirm that the Childress family were involved.
Seeing as Rust was already of the mind that this was a family thing with them and the Tuttles he'd have surely been checking up on the relatives whereabouts anyway.
It was filler and pretty much only there to justify the emphasis placed on the spaghetti monster sketch in Rusts lock up.
Seeing as Rust was already of the mind that this was a family thing with them and the Tuttles he'd have surely been checking up on the relatives whereabouts anyway.
It was filler and pretty much only there to justify the emphasis placed on the spaghetti monster sketch in Rusts lock up.
Yeah, it was silly but it was also unimportant. Just an ungainly ends to a means that, while giving me pause, didn't affect my enjoyment of the final episode.
http://www.vulture.com/2014/03/true...y-fukunaga-interview.html?mid=twitter_vulture
Cary Fukunaga talking about the final episode.
Cary Fukunaga talking about the final episode.
I call bollocks on the daughter thing. Yeah some of it (the spiral drawing) was the usual fans getting carried away but stuff like the dolls, the drawing, the Crown scene is quite deliberate and apparently quite deliberately misleading.
Yeah the daughter stuff was silly, especially as she drew a guy, in a hood, with a boner.
I'm not sure why he'd lie about it.
Well he doesn't lie but he just skirts around the issue, not addressing the Crown, dolls or drawing specifically. Probably trying to keep some mystery in the show.
If you think they are in there purely as coincidence then I don't know what to tell you.
I suppose Rust making the beer can men was unintentional too?
Both that and the dolls are foreshadowing the tape that shows up later. There's nae question of that.
The interesting thing is the comparison to Twin Peaks. Both shows kind of ran out of steam when the killer was revealed.
Twin Peaks though managed to pick it back up (re introducing a new antagonist) and had a genuinely shocking ending.
Twin Peaks though managed to pick it back up (re introducing a new antagonist) and had a genuinely shocking ending.
Ah yes, the tape.
Hart: Show me what you've got Rust.
Cohle: Well, I've drawn this incredibly complicated map of locations, it's got pins and string and all sorts of impressive looking hard work on it, and it sort of shows a slightly higher rate of murders in this large potential area.
Hart: Right....Not a lot then?
Cohle: No, look, I've got a huge amount of circumstantial evidence all pinned around this board.
Hart: Yeah, but it's just that Rust, circumstantial.
Cohle: And I've written important clues to the case in giant letters on the wall of this garage.
Hart: Yeah. That's odd. I can't say I'm convinced..
Cohle: Wait, I've also spoken to a weird moustachiod transvestite prostitute in a smokey strip club. It was a fairly interesting scene that went on for slightly too long and he told me he remembers being touched by people in animal masks.
Hart: A transvestite prostitute in a strip club? That's not going to hold up in..
Cohle: No, wait, he also said he remembers a girl who said the same thing.
Hart: Right....Well, again, it's a bit flimsy...Just tell me what happened with Tuttle.
Cohle: You're gonna have to find that out for yourself Marty.
Hart: Ok. Well I don't think you really have anything pointing to a conspiracy here Rust, so I'm just going to go, and..
Cohle: I've got a tape of loads of men raping a girl that I stole from Tuttle. Hows that?
Hart: ......
Cohle:.....
Hart:....
Cohle: ...What?
Hart: Next time, start with that.
Hart: Show me what you've got Rust.
Cohle: Well, I've drawn this incredibly complicated map of locations, it's got pins and string and all sorts of impressive looking hard work on it, and it sort of shows a slightly higher rate of murders in this large potential area.
Hart: Right....Not a lot then?
Cohle: No, look, I've got a huge amount of circumstantial evidence all pinned around this board.
Hart: Yeah, but it's just that Rust, circumstantial.
Cohle: And I've written important clues to the case in giant letters on the wall of this garage.
Hart: Yeah. That's odd. I can't say I'm convinced..
Cohle: Wait, I've also spoken to a weird moustachiod transvestite prostitute in a smokey strip club. It was a fairly interesting scene that went on for slightly too long and he told me he remembers being touched by people in animal masks.
Hart: A transvestite prostitute in a strip club? That's not going to hold up in..
Cohle: No, wait, he also said he remembers a girl who said the same thing.
Hart: Right....Well, again, it's a bit flimsy...Just tell me what happened with Tuttle.
Cohle: You're gonna have to find that out for yourself Marty.
Hart: Ok. Well I don't think you really have anything pointing to a conspiracy here Rust, so I'm just going to go, and..
Cohle: I've got a tape of loads of men raping a girl that I stole from Tuttle. Hows that?
Hart: ......
Cohle:.....
Hart:....
Cohle: ...What?
Hart: Next time, start with that.
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Holy shit that yellow crown in the background on the road wasn't intentional? I'm disappointed.
The drawings are of people having sex as far as I remember, there was no suggestion of gang rape or children. The crown I'd simply put down to something symbolic, as for the toys, I can't explain that, but none of those are particularly damning suggestions that Audrey was involved in the cult at all. And something being foreshadowing in a show doesn't mean it's related, it can just be a device.
It doesn't matter. I've made up my own narrative that she heard about it in school from her class mate Jebediah Childress.
Jedediah was never allowed to join in with finger painting because of the mess he would make.
"oh Jeb you've got it all over your ears again"