Transgender rights discussion

I’m talking teenage years.

This is a very different discussion but, to be blunt, it's a bit of can of worms, isn't it?

You have to be 18 to vote, 16 to legally consent to sex, 18 to gamble, and you can't even purchase certain media until you're 18, all because you're not considered mentally developed enough to make an informed decision on these things, yet young teenagers (or even younger again when you consider puberty blockers) are capable of making an informed decision on taking potentially life-altering hormones therapy and a bit later undergoing certainly life-altering medical procedures?

It's a bit of a cliche, but it's a cliche for a reason - "it's not a phase, mom!"

Teenagers and kids are sure as shit of a lot of things until they're not, why is this an exception?
 
This is a very different discussion but, to be blunt, it's a bit of can of worms, isn't it?

You have to be 18 to vote, 16 to legally consent to sex, 18 to gamble, and you can't even purchase certain media until you're 18, all because you're not considered mentally developed enough to make an informed decision on these things, yet young teenagers (or even younger again when you consider puberty blockers) are capable of making an informed decision on taking potentially life-altering hormones therapy and a bit later undergoing certainly life-altering medical procedures?

It's a bit of a cliche, but it's a cliche for a reason - "it's not a phase, mom!"

Teenagers and kids are sure as shit of a lot of things until they're not, why is this an exception?
How many times do you need to be told or read that young teenagers pre puberty or during are taking puberty blockers and not hormone therapy.
 
How many times do you need to be told or read that young teenagers pre puberty or during are taking puberty blockers and not hormone therapy.

Maybe I've phrased that incorrectly, but are puberty blockers not a form of hormone therapy, given that my understanding is that their sole purpose is to stop the body's production of the hormones that trigger puberty?

As for what you seem to be describing as hormone therapy, which I'm assuming is the taking of opposite sex hormones, the poster I responded to said that hormone replacement starts at 14 years old. How is a 14 year old not a young teenager?
 
This is a very different discussion but, to be blunt, it's a bit of can of worms, isn't it?

You have to be 18 to vote, 16 to legally consent to sex, 18 to gamble, and you can't even purchase certain media until you're 18, all because you're not considered mentally developed enough to make an informed decision on these things, yet young teenagers (or even younger again when you consider puberty blockers) are capable of making an informed decision on taking potentially life-altering hormones therapy and a bit later undergoing certainly life-altering medical procedures?

It's a bit of a cliche, but it's a cliche for a reason - "it's not a phase, mom!"

Teenagers and kids are sure as shit of a lot of things until they're not, why is this an exception?
they can realize at preschool age they are the wrong gender outwardly. So around 5. There was a 5 year old in my son’s class who was super angry all the time because his parents dressed him like a boy. He got angry when they cut his hair because he said “they won’t know I’m a girl!” This kid, Watson, was an absolute terror, totally bullied the other kids. Then one day her parents capitulated and allowed her to wear girl clothes to school from then on, and to style her hair like a girl, and she became sweetness and light. Night and day personality switch.

So at what age would it be appropriate to let Watson begin to resemble the girl she was in the inside? She felt like there had been a terrible mistake made by God. Get her the blockers and then surgery she needs so that she can start to live her life. It’s not a casual choice. You should read up, because I think you’re making a common mistake and equating gender with sexuality.

(Continued) Watson identified as female as a 5 year old at the latest. She lived as female for the next 9 years before she could start the blockers. Anyone who met her after she became female would not know, and that’s the point: let these kids enjoy their lives instead of living a lie. It’s not a teenager choice. It’s a years-long process. The kids that are truly trans, and not simply gay, or transvestite, it’s their identity.

I agree it is a very drastic decision, but they know that too. I know there are some who stop halfway, but this is kind of a whole new world we are in, in terms of acceptance and options and understanding what they are going through. The gender reassignment is also very expensive, so many who would get it simply can’t afford it. This is way more common than it used to be. Until I met that kid Watson, I knew zero trans people. Since then, that number is close to 20. Not too long ago, being gay was listed as a mental illness. This is similar. The hesitation by outsiders, like us, is Because we imagine it would be experimenting as the other gender, but we know we would eventually switch back to our real gender. This is exactly what these kids feel. They know their real gender.
 
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You can really tell the posters who have zero experience with children or teenagers with gender identity issues.
 
They weren’t born a man; they were born a baby boy. It all depends on when they went through the transition. If it was after puberty, yes, they would enjoy extra muscle mass, larger frames, etc. if they transitioned before puberty, the advantages would probably disappear. That swimmer who did it after already competing at collegiate level is probably an outlier. The point is, if people were given the therapy and surgeries they needed as youth, instead of fighting and having to wait until their adult years, this would be rare.
they can realize at preschool age they are the wrong gender outwardly. So around 5. There was a 5 year old in my son’s class who was super angry all the time because his parents dressed him like a boy. He got angry when they cut his hair because he said “they won’t know I’m a girl!” This kid, Watson, was an absolute terror, totally bullied the other kids. Then one day her parents allowed her to wear girl clothes to school and she became sweetness and light. Night and day personality switch. So at what age would it be appropriate to let Watson begin to resemble the girl she was in the inside? She felt like there had been a terrible mistake made by God. Get her the blockers and then surgery she needs so that she can start to live her life. It’s not a casual choice. You should read up.
You're advocating surgery and serious heavy medication/intervention whatever for little kids? Do you know how fecked up that is?
 
You're advocating surgery and serious heavy medication/intervention whatever for little kids? Do you know how fecked up that is?

In many many cases it is apparent very early that there is a gender issue. At that point, subject to hugely extensive medical review by specialists and experts, preventing the onset of puberty until someone is older is a hugely beneficial action. My nephew did not get this help and it made life far far harder than neccesary.
 
You can really tell the posters who have zero experience with children or teenagers with gender identity issues.

There's a trans girl in my daughter's class at school. My daughter came back from hockey with a black eye yesterday after getting an elbow in the face from this kid. Who is, by all accounts, a very nice person, day to day, but bigger/stronger than the other girls in the class and apparently extremely aggressive in the way she plays hockey. I've been dipping in and out of this transgender in sports debate in an entirely abstract way up until now. It all feels a lot more real as of the last 24 hours.

To be clear, I'm sure there have been plenty of "cis girl vs cis girl" black eyes over the years, so I'm keeping this all in perspective. Just all seems a lot more real when your own kid walks onto a pitch with someone born a different gender.
 
There's a trans girl in my daughter's class at school. My daughter came back from hockey with a black eye yesterday after getting an elbow in the face from this kid. Who is, by all accounts, a very nice person, day to day, but bigger/stronger than the other girls in the class and apparently extremely aggressive in the way she plays hockey. I've been dipping in and out of this transgender in sports debate in an entirely abstract way up until now. It all feels a lot more real as of the last 24 hours.

To be clear, I'm sure there have been plenty of "cis girl vs cis girl" black eyes over the years, so I'm keeping this all in perspective. Just all seems a lot more real when your own kid walks onto a pitch with someone born a different gender.

My comments weren't about sport specifically and that line of discussion is probably better done in the other (not sport related) transgender thread.

It sounds like you are being very considered in your response when it is your kid with the black eye.
 
they can realize at preschool age they are the wrong gender outwardly. So around 5. There was a 5 year old in my son’s class who was super angry all the time because his parents dressed him like a boy. He got angry when they cut his hair because he said “they won’t know I’m a girl!” This kid, Watson, was an absolute terror, totally bullied the other kids. Then one day her parents capitulated and allowed her to wear girl clothes to school from then on, and to style her hair like a girl, and she became sweetness and light. Night and day personality switch.

So at what age would it be appropriate to let Watson begin to resemble the girl she was in the inside?

I don't really want to get into specific individuals too much because a) it's too emotive and b) it's all anecdotal. However, I'll address some of this post in sections:

If the school are happy with it, there's nothing wrong with Watson attending school in a dress or, as you've put it, "resemble the girl she was in the inside". This is very different to medical transition.

While we're talking anecdotally, my sister in law absolutely refused to wear her school uniform from around 5-years-old through to about 10/11-years-old. Instead, she pretty much exclusively wore cargo pants and rugby shirts, and was generally a typical 'tomboy'. I don't believe she ever claimed to be a boy, which is obviously a difference, but the fact remains she grew out of it and, while she's still very sporty, is very much a 20-something woman.

She felt like there had been a terrible mistake made by God. Get her the blockers and then surgery she needs so that she can start to live her life. It’s not a casual choice. You should read up, because I think you’re making a common mistake and equating gender with sexuality.

I'm just going to ignore the "God" comment because that's a whole different can of worms again.

You also need to stop telling people to "read up" because you have no idea how much reading they've done on the subject.

I'm not equating gender with sexuality (or indeed sex) at all. I'm not even sure what's given you that impression.

The crux of it is that we recognise that children/teenagers lack the ability to make informed decisions on many aspects of life, and as such, they are legally ring-fenced from them, but this is somehow different?

Again, they can't consent to sex, they can't vote, they can't gamble, and they can't buy a ticket to see Saw X in the cinema.

It’s not a teenager choice. It’s a years-long process. The kids that are truly trans, and not simply gay, or transvestite, it’s their identity.

I agree it is a very drastic decision, but they know that too.

This reads as contradictory to me.

It's a decision they begin to make and consider as younger children, but at the same time it's a drastic decision?

Regardless, the point remains that they're surely too young to be making any informed decision on these potentially irreversible medical treatments?

I know there are some who stop halfway

And this is basically the point I'm making. Some of these treatments are irreversible. There is a severe gap in studies on the long-term effects of puberty blockers (anecdotally, a friend was prescribed what is the same drug for something, but was only allowed to take it for three months due to the potential long-term side-effects), let alone the potentially permanent effects of starting hormone replacement therapy or the definite irreversible changes of undergoing surgery.

What's wrong with simply letting these kids live and dress how they want (within reason, of course) and see how things go as they grow up?
 
In many many cases it is apparent very early that there is a gender issue. At that point, subject to hugely extensive medical review by specialists and experts, preventing the onset of puberty until someone is older is a hugely beneficial action. My nephew did not get this help and it made life far far harder than neccesary.

I obviously can't speak for the care received by your nephew, but the UK's gender services are essentially being shut down in disgrace because of how poorly they've handled the care of those referred to them. This includes, perhaps most notably, placing individuals on medical pathways with little to no supporting research.

We should want these things to be extensively reviewed by medical experts, but from what I've read, I'm not sure that's necessarily the case.
 
My comments weren't about sport specifically and that line of discussion is probably better done in the other (not sport related) transgender thread.

It sounds like you are being very considered in your response when it is your kid with the black eye.

The way I think about is that the challenges this presents for me/my daughter are nothing compared to the trans girl and her parents. For example, a big part of most Irish kids formative experience as a young teen is spending a few weeks over the summer in the Gaeltacht (a sort of Irish language summer camp, where kids go and stay with host families and do a load of sports and fun stuff while working on their Irish) This girl’s parents have been told that none of the host families will accommodate their child. Which must be heartbreaking. And I do have some sympathy with the host families, as the accommodation usually involves shared bathrooms/bedrooms etc The whole thing is horribly difficult and complicated. So a black eye playing hockey is fairly insignificant, in the grand scheme of things.
 
Incorrect, the reason for what you perceive as anti-trans laws is to not infringe the rights of others.
The main problem in these discussions is that you have 10% of people who are genuinely worried about women sports and 90% of people who have never watched a women sports event in their life and just don't like transgender people. This second set of people will pretend to be in the first one 100% of the times.
 
I obviously can't speak for the care received by your nephew, but the UK's gender services are essentially being shut down in disgrace because of how poorly they've handled the care of those referred to them. This includes, perhaps most notably, placing individuals on medical pathways with little to no supporting research.

We should want these things to be extensively reviewed by medical experts, but from what I've read, I'm not sure that's necessarily the case.

Tavistock was closed because it couldn't keep up with demand for its services. The Cass report recommended multiple centres be opened on a regional basis, rather than one centre in London.

The reality is that increased demand has lead to long waiting lists. It would take years for young people to even get a first appointment - they are certainly not being rushed into treatment - anything but.

The solution isn't to deny young people the care they need because they're deemed 'too young', and instead force them to suffer through years of puberty which will have potentially detrimental effects on them in later years; it's to provide the facilities and care to ensure the correct medical treatment is available for each individual on a case by case basis.
 
Tavistock was closed because it couldn't keep up with demand for its services. The Cass report recommended multiple centres be opened on a regional basis, rather than one centre in London.

The reality is that increased demand has lead to long waiting lists. It would take years for young people to even get a first appointment - they are certainly not being rushed into treatment - anything but.

The solution isn't to deny young people the care they need because they're deemed 'too young', and instead force them to suffer through years of puberty which will have potentially detrimental effects on them in later years; it's to provide the facilities and care to ensure the correct medical treatment is available for each individual on a case by case basis.

That's a very selective view of the report considering it also found that the Tavistock had woeful to non-existing record keeping, and that the medical pathways had little in the way of supportive evidence.
 
I don't really want to get into specific individuals too much because a) it's too emotive and b) it's all anecdotal. However, I'll address some of this post in sections:

If the school are happy with it, there's nothing wrong with Watson attending school in a dress or, as you've put it, "resemble the girl she was in the inside". This is very different to medical transition.

While we're talking anecdotally, my sister in law absolutely refused to wear her school uniform from around 5-years-old through to about 10/11-years-old. Instead, she pretty much exclusively wore cargo pants and rugby shirts, and was generally a typical 'tomboy'. I don't believe she ever claimed to be a boy, which is obviously a difference, but the fact remains she grew out of it and, while she's still very sporty, is very much a 20-something woman.



I'm just going to ignore the "God" comment because that's a whole different can of worms again.

You also need to stop telling people to "read up" because you have no idea how much reading they've done on the subject.

I'm not equating gender with sexuality (or indeed sex) at all. I'm not even sure what's given you that impression.

The crux of it is that we recognise that children/teenagers lack the ability to make informed decisions on many aspects of life, and as such, they are legally ring-fenced from them, but this is somehow different?

Again, they can't consent to sex, they can't vote, they can't gamble, and they can't buy a ticket to see Saw X in the cinema.



This reads as contradictory to me.

It's a decision they begin to make and consider as younger children, but at the same time it's a drastic decision?

Regardless, the point remains that they're surely too young to be making any informed decision on these potentially irreversible medical treatments?



And this is basically the point I'm making. Some of these treatments are irreversible. There is a severe gap in studies on the long-term effects of puberty blockers (anecdotally, a friend was prescribed what is the same drug for something, but was only allowed to take it for three months due to the potential long-term side-effects), let alone the potentially permanent effects of starting hormone replacement therapy or the definite irreversible changes of undergoing surgery.

What's wrong with simply letting these kids live and dress how they want (within reason, of course) and see how things go as they grow up?
I meant "read up" as "read up on people's first hand experiences", because what you keep doing is repeating the same argument from your perspective - which is not adequate. I infer from your writing that you don't have children of your own, so you are operating from your own experiences of becoming a teenager 10, 20, 30 (?) years ago. Your personal experience is not as relevant as someone who is a trans person. You keep positioning this discussion as if trans people are adopting a lifestyle choice, and you are using the same language as people who are hostile to LGBTQ. You sound like you don't have any first-hand interactions with trans people. That's why I am urging you to read their personal stories.

They are experiencing depression, suicidal thoughts (and actions), and other ways of self-harm because they are forced to be outwardly opposite to what they feel inwardly. If they were supported when they were younger, they would be happier. By denying teens the right to begin transitioning, you are essentially asking them to waste their teenage years.

• On the positive side of the equation, what continually surprises me is the mind-body alignment that brought about an indescribable amount of inner peace and calm. It was a state of being I could only achieve in the past through temporary and often self-destructive means.

• I spent several years thinking about medical transition before I took the steps, and the delay was 100 percent fear based. I wish I had known that while stabbing myself with a needle sucks, being able to look in the mirror and actually like the person I see makes it all totally worth it.

I wish I had known just how embracing who I really am would dramatically bring me back to life. I spent half my life ashamed and scared of who and what I was.

What I'd want my pre-transition self to know is that however more difficult life gets, fighting the world as your authentic self is better than fighting yourself on behalf of the world. Nothing is worse than constantly beating yourself up. I felt like I'd been renting a space in my body for what seemed like an eternity. Nothing feels more exciting, scary, and wonderful than deciding to really move into yourself. I like people to know just how much happiness was waiting for me after my transition.

Knowing that there is something other than grief that can sit in this body has been so, so powerful.

I knew when I was 3 years old. I was assigned female at birth, but I distinctly remember someone saying, “Oh, what a cute little girl.” And I said, “I’m not a girl. I’m a boy.”

Keeping a secret that big just wears on you. Waking up every day just trying to find another excuse not to transition just made me want to cry. Coming out and transitioning was like removing the biggest weight in the world off my back. It was such a sense of relief.

Before transitioning, I was completely numb. I didn't feel happiness or joy, nor sadness or sorrow. I felt dead on the inside, like I was acting out a script someone else had written for me. After deciding to transition, it was as if all my life the whole world had been a sepia movie, and all of a sudden it got colors. I started feeling lots of things for the first time — even being sad was amazing because it meant I was alive.

Before deciding to transition, I had suicidal depression and anxiety, and a strong tendency to sabotage myself. I was very successful professionally, but always felt I was an impostor. Now, my depression is gone, and anxiety is greatly reduced. I am the happiest I have ever been in my adult life.

Before, I was anxious, depressed, suicidal, miserable, and scared. I didn't experience much emotional range. I had no idea how it felt to be happy or in love.

Before, I was incredibly depressed and angry at all times. I honestly don't know how I was able to function. It felt like I was in a dark pit I couldn't see the end of. I felt completely alone and powerless.


https://www.self.com/story/before-transitioning

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-m...voices-post-kff-survey-transgender-americans/

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/carolinekee/people-talk-about-transitioning-and-mental-health

https://www.theproudtrust.org/trusted-adults/coming-out/supporting-young-people-with-transitioning/
 
I meant "read up" as "read up on people's first hand experiences", because what you keep doing is repeating the same argument from your perspective - which is not adequate. I infer from your writing that you don't have children of your own, so you are operating from your own experiences of becoming a teenager 10, 20, 30 (?) years ago. Your personal experience is not as relevant as someone who is a trans person. You keep positioning this discussion as if trans people are adopting a lifestyle choice, and you are using the same language as people who are hostile to LGBTQ. You sound like you don't have any first-hand interactions with trans people. That's why I am urging you to read their personal stories.

They are experiencing depression, suicidal thoughts (and actions), and other ways of self-harm because they are forced to be outwardly opposite to what they feel inwardly. If they were supported when they were younger, they would be happier. By denying teens the right to begin transitioning, you are essentially asking them to waste their teenage years.

• On the positive side of the equation, what continually surprises me is the mind-body alignment that brought about an indescribable amount of inner peace and calm. It was a state of being I could only achieve in the past through temporary and often self-destructive means.

• I spent several years thinking about medical transition before I took the steps, and the delay was 100 percent fear based. I wish I had known that while stabbing myself with a needle sucks, being able to look in the mirror and actually like the person I see makes it all totally worth it.

I wish I had known just how embracing who I really am would dramatically bring me back to life. I spent half my life ashamed and scared of who and what I was.

What I'd want my pre-transition self to know is that however more difficult life gets, fighting the world as your authentic self is better than fighting yourself on behalf of the world. Nothing is worse than constantly beating yourself up. I felt like I'd been renting a space in my body for what seemed like an eternity. Nothing feels more exciting, scary, and wonderful than deciding to really move into yourself. I like people to know just how much happiness was waiting for me after my transition.

Knowing that there is something other than grief that can sit in this body has been so, so powerful.

I knew when I was 3 years old. I was assigned female at birth, but I distinctly remember someone saying, “Oh, what a cute little girl.” And I said, “I’m not a girl. I’m a boy.”

Keeping a secret that big just wears on you. Waking up every day just trying to find another excuse not to transition just made me want to cry. Coming out and transitioning was like removing the biggest weight in the world off my back. It was such a sense of relief.

Before transitioning, I was completely numb. I didn't feel happiness or joy, nor sadness or sorrow. I felt dead on the inside, like I was acting out a script someone else had written for me. After deciding to transition, it was as if all my life the whole world had been a sepia movie, and all of a sudden it got colors. I started feeling lots of things for the first time — even being sad was amazing because it meant I was alive.

Before deciding to transition, I had suicidal depression and anxiety, and a strong tendency to sabotage myself. I was very successful professionally, but always felt I was an impostor. Now, my depression is gone, and anxiety is greatly reduced. I am the happiest I have ever been in my adult life.

Before, I was anxious, depressed, suicidal, miserable, and scared. I didn't experience much emotional range. I had no idea how it felt to be happy or in love.

Before, I was incredibly depressed and angry at all times. I honestly don't know how I was able to function. It felt like I was in a dark pit I couldn't see the end of. I felt completely alone and powerless.


https://www.self.com/story/before-transitioning

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-m...voices-post-kff-survey-transgender-americans/

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/carolinekee/people-talk-about-transitioning-and-mental-health

https://www.theproudtrust.org/trusted-adults/coming-out/supporting-young-people-with-transitioning/

I have a son.

I've read plenty about mental health and trans-issues.

As I said, specific individual accounts are anecdotal. The reality is that there simply isn't a lot of data and information out there. In fact, there are studies showing that many children do, in fact, grow out of their feelings of gender dysphoria.
 
I have a son.

I've read plenty about mental health and trans-issues.

As I said, specific individual accounts are anecdotal. The reality is that there simply isn't a lot of data and information out there. In fact, there are studies showing that many children do, in fact, grow out of their feelings of gender dysphoria.
whatever
 
It's because discussing things with you is a waste of time. You might as well be a chat bot. You are proud of not knowing what you're talking about, so I am leaving off further discussion with you.

I do know what I'm talking about. You just don't accept that I do because I haven't reached the same conclusion as you.
 
The main problem in these discussions is that you have 10% of people who are genuinely worried about women sports and 90% of people who have never watched a women sports event in their life and just don't like transgender people. This second set of people will pretend to be in the first one 100% of the times.
absolutely

Tavistock was closed because it couldn't keep up with demand for its services. The Cass report recommended multiple centres be opened on a regional basis, rather than one centre in London.

The reality is that increased demand has lead to long waiting lists. It would take years for young people to even get a first appointment - they are certainly not being rushed into treatment - anything but.

The solution isn't to deny young people the care they need because they're deemed 'too young', and instead force them to suffer through years of puberty which will have potentially detrimental effects on them in later years; it's to provide the facilities and care to ensure the correct medical treatment is available for each individual on a case by case basis.
well said
 
It's because discussing things with you is a waste of time. You might as well be a chat bot. You are proud of not knowing what you're talking about, so I am leaving off further discussion with you.
The problem is, you could just as easily post individual accounts of people who started transitioning and later regretted it. It's not like 100% of people who have feelings of gender dysphoria are actually trans or find the solution that's right for them by transitioning. One of my friends from school is in a relationship with a girl who started FTM hormone therapy and later regretted it. If I post a quote from her and say that discussing with you is a complete waste of time, is my post any less legitimate than yours? Is it then you who is proud of not knowing what you're talking about?

This isn't a black and white issue. What's right for one person might not work for others, and given the long term effects of the treatment it needs to be very carefully considered by a qualified adult before any treatment starts.
 
The problem is, you could just as easily post individual accounts of people who started transitioning and later regretted it. It's not like 100% of people who have feelings of gender dysphoria are actually trans or find the solution that's right for them by transitioning. One of my friends from school is in a relationship with a girl who started FTM hormone therapy and later regretted it. If I post a quote from her and say that discussing with you is a complete waste of time, is my post any less legitimate than yours? Is it then you who is proud of not knowing what you're talking about?

This isn't a black and white issue. What's right for one person might not work for others, and given the long term effects of the treatment it needs to be very carefully considered by a qualified adult before any treatment starts.
If if if if if if if. Just post the stories of the people who regretted it, add some evidence to your thoughts and opinions. Let people read and make up their minds. I have plenty of experience with that community, so reading stories of people who regret the transition is not really going to outweigh that. But people may find it helpful, so add those stories.
 
Anecdotes aren't evidence my friend. This is the internet, anyone can just make shit up.
This isn't a trial. What we are talking about are people's actual thoughts who have gone through this process, and those thoughts are found by reading these people's stories - which is what I'm trying to get people to do, and which is why I posted 4 links to get people started. So instead of the other guy saying, "people regret it", show examples of people regretting it. Those are anecdotes but they also support his argument. They are probably not evidential and admissible in court, but we are simply trying to get first hand accounts.
 
I’m guessing you don’t have kids? Puberty can start anywhere between 9 and like 15, but 13-14 is most common. You should listen to them Instead of telling them what you think they should do. If it’s not you, your family, or your friends, be grateful because it’s rough. If you do meet someone who it affects directly, just listen.

4 kids.

And no, I wouldn't listen to them, because they're kids. They're like I was - an idiot who knew nothing. The fact that they're being exposed to different ideas earlier than any of us were doesn't make them wiser, or better informed. It changes nothing. They're kids.
 
That's a very selective view of the report considering it also found that the Tavistock had woeful to non-existing record keeping, and that the medical pathways had little in the way of supportive evidence.

Poor record keeping is what happens when a service is overrun by demand with 5k people on waiting lists.

As for selectivity, on the contrary, you are misrepresenting the report to push your own narrative. You can read what Dr Cass has to say on the matter here - https://cass.independent-review.uk/entry-8-beyond-the-headlines/

This certainly is not the case of a clinic being shut down 'in disgrace because of how poorly they've handled the care of those referred to them.' She says in her statement: 'In medicine, when there is controversy or doubt about treatment decisions, the immediate reaction is to blame individuals, and sometimes organisations. However, the most important way to reduce risk, improve decision-making and manage uncertainty is through safe systems. The purpose of my Review is to be forward-looking and define what a safe system of care should look like, and how to support that care with the best evidence.'

You're doing the exact thing she is talking about in the bolded section.

She in fact praised the staff working at Tavistock: 'The staff working at GIDS have demonstrated compassion and a strong professional commitment towards their patient population. Their experience and continued engagement will be essential in ensuring a smooth progression to the new service model.'

should want these things to be extensively reviewed by medical experts, but from what I've read, I'm not sure that's necessarily the case.

This is exactly what the Cass report proposes as part of the recommended regionalised services. The whole report is aimed at improving healthcare for young people, not reducing it.

You're deliberately misleading people here.
 
It’s pretty hilarious that you think trying to support trans people’s rights equals misogyny. Especially given more women are supportive of trans people than men, and most people who are anti actually misogynistic policies like anti-abortion are also against trans rights.

Trans people don’t want to compete in a third category a) because there’s barely any trans people in the first place let alone professional sports people so it’s basically a pointless competition b) they were never consulted in the first place so this was a token gesture at best, and c) they most likely don’t want to be treated like some kind of ‘third’ category anyway when they’re men and women.

I don’t have all the answers either but this certainly wasn’t the one. But equating inclusion with misogyny is a pretty silly stance.
Are you not the poster that was accusing everyone of being a transphobe that said trans people shouldn't be allowed to compete with born females in elite level sports?

Apologies in advance if it wasnt you, I know I could have the wrong poster here.
 
Poor record keeping is what happens when a service is overrun by demand with 5k people on waiting lists.

As for selectivity, on the contrary, you are misrepresenting the report to push your own narrative. You can read what Dr Cass has to say on the matter here - https://cass.independent-review.uk/entry-8-beyond-the-headlines/

This certainly is not the case of a clinic being shut down 'in disgrace because of how poorly they've handled the care of those referred to them.' She says in her statement: 'In medicine, when there is controversy or doubt about treatment decisions, the immediate reaction is to blame individuals, and sometimes organisations. However, the most important way to reduce risk, improve decision-making and manage uncertainty is through safe systems. The purpose of my Review is to be forward-looking and define what a safe system of care should look like, and how to support that care with the best evidence.'

You're doing the exact thing she is talking about in the bolded section.

She in fact praised the staff working at Tavistock: 'The staff working at GIDS have demonstrated compassion and a strong professional commitment towards their patient population. Their experience and continued engagement will be essential in ensuring a smooth progression to the new service model.'



This is exactly what the Cass report proposes as part of the recommended regionalised services. The whole report is aimed at improving healthcare for young people, not reducing it.

You're deliberately misleading people here.

Firstly, I've not suggested the answer is to simply pull care. As you've quoted me saying, we should want the care to be extensively reviewed by medical experts. As things stand, this isn't the case. As a result, it's effectively experimental treatment.

Secondly, you're again being very selective. That link isn't even part of the interim report. It's essentially a blog post written to support medical colleagues receiving backlash. I'm also not talking necessarily about individual staff members, just as the interim report isn't, but the failings of the structure as a whole. I don't doubt that those working within it have been doing their best, but if the structure and processes are deeply flawed, their best will still be shoddy care.

Thirdly, I'm not misleading anyone. I'm simply summarising the findings of the interim report.

These are just from the key points section before the actual interim report:

  • We need to know more about the population being referred and outcomes. There has not been routine and consistent data collection, which means it is not possible to accurately track the outcomes and pathways that children and young people take through the service.
  • There is lack of consensus and open discussion about the nature of gender dysphoria and therefore about the appropriate clinical response.
  • Because the specialist service has evolved rapidly and organically in response to demand, the clinical approach and overall service design has not been subjected to some of the normal quality controls that are typically applied when new or innovative treatments are introduced.

So straight away we have it acknowledged that a) they don't really know what they're treating (second bullet point), b) the treatments are essentially experimental and haven't been subject to proper review and quality control (third bullet point), and c) children have been put on these courses of experimental treatment with little regard for the outcome, because they've simply not recorded it (first bullet point).

It's immediately a very damning report of the levels of care provided, and while I have sympathy for NHS waiting lists, this isn't a phenomena exclusive to gender services. It being busy isn't and shouldn't be an excuse.

Again, before we get to the actual report:

At this stage the Review is not able to provide advice on the use of hormone treatments due to gaps in the evidence base.

And here's a line from the "A letter to children and young people section":

We know quite a bit about hormone treatments, but there is still a lot we don’t know about the longterm effects.

Here are some key bits from the summary, which is essentially the same as above:

Many of the challenges and knowledge gaps that we face in the UK are echoed internationally, and there are significant gaps in the research and evidence base.

The Review is not able to provide definitive advice on the use of puberty blockers and feminising/masculinising hormones at this stage, due to gaps in the evidence base

At primary, secondary and specialist level, there is a lack of agreement, and in many instances a lack of open discussion, about the extent to which gender incongruence in childhood and adolescence can be an inherent and immutable phenomenon for which transition is the best option for the individual, or a more fluid and temporal response to a range of developmental, social, and psychological factors.

Children and young people can experience this as a ‘clinician lottery’, and failure to have an open discussion about this issue is impeding the development of clear guidelines about their care.

Evidence on the appropriate management of children and young people with gender incongruence and dysphoria is inconclusive both nationally and internationally.

A lack of a conceptual agreement about the meaning of gender dysphoria hampers research, as well as NHS clinical service provision.

A lack of routine and consistent data collection means that it is not possible to accurately track the outcomes and pathways children and young people take through the service.

What have I said that's misleading in relation the above?

Still in the summary, there are additional concerns about the service provided in relation to affirmation, overlooking other issues, and general awareness or assessment of progression:

Primary and secondary care staff have told us that they feel under pressure to adopt an unquestioning affirmative approach and that this is at odds with the standard process of clinical assessment and diagnosis that they have been trained to undertake in all other clinical encounters

many of the children and young people presenting have complex needs, but once they are identified as having gender-related distress, other important healthcare issues that would normally be managed by local services can sometimes be overlooked.

From the point of entry to GIDS there appears to be predominantly an affirmative, non-exploratory approach

there does not appear to be a standardised approach to assessment or progression through the process, which leads to potential gaps in necessary evidence and a lack of clarity

There has not been routine and consistent data collection within GIDS, which means it is not possible to accurately track the outcomes and pathways that children and young people take through the service.

Internationally as well as nationally, longer-term follow-up data on children and young people who have been seen by gender identity services is limited, including for those who have received physical interventions; who were transferred to adult services and/or accessed private services; or who desisted, experienced regret or detransitioned.

There has been research on the short-term mental health outcomes and physical side effects of puberty blockers for this cohort, but very limited research on the sexual, cognitive or broader developmental outcomes.

Much of the existing literature about natural history and treatment outcomes for gender dysphoria in childhood is based on a case-mix of predominantly birth-registered males presenting in early childhood. There is much less data on the more recent case-mix of predominantly birth-registered females presenting in early teens, particularly in relation to treatment and outcomes.

Aspects of the literature are open to interpretation in multiple ways, and there is a risk that some authors interpret their data from a particular ideological and/or theoretical standpoint.

I've separated this next bit because I think it warrants it's own space. I don't think it warrants further comment and speaks for itself:

There is limited evidence of mental health or neurodevelopmental assessments being routinely documented, or of a discipline of formal diagnostic or psychological formulation.

Same again for this bit:

Of 44 submissions received by the MPRG, 31% were not initially assured due to lack of safeguarding information. And in a number of cases there were specific safeguarding concerns. There do not appear to be consistent processes in place to work with other agencies to identify children and young people and families who may be vulnerable, at risk and require safeguarding.

This is probably one of the more concerning summarised findings:

Appropriate clinical experts need to be involved in informing decision making.

Who has been informing decision making for clinical treatments if not "appropriate clinical experts"?

Another concerning finding:

Within the Dutch Approach, children and young people with neurodiversity and/or complex mental health problems are routinely given therapeutic support in advance of, or when considered appropriate, instead of early hormone intervention. Whereas criteria to have accessed therapeutic support prior to starting hormone blocking treatment do not appear to be integral to the current NHS process.

NHS endocrinologists do not systematically attend the multi-disciplinary meetings where the complex cases that may be referred to them are discussed, and until very recently did not routinely have direct contact with the clinical staff member who had assessed the child or young person

Children with neurodiversity or mental health problems are not routinely given therapeutic support in advance of starting hormone blocking treatment in the NHS process. Not only that, but the medical professionals charged with administering these hormone treatments were not even privy to the details of the children they were treating. This is staggeringly negligent.

If you want, I can continue through the main body of the report, but I think the summarised findings are adequate enough to demonstrate how awful this service has been.

Again, I'm not misleading anyone. However, your selective picking of choice quotes (that don't all even come from the report) is incredibly misleading, particularly when you paint a picture of a clinic simply overwhelmed by its waiting list, and not one operating without necessarily following adequate medical process and safeguarding practices, which is what the interim report has found.
 
In many many cases it is apparent very early that there is a gender issue. At that point, subject to hugely extensive medical review by specialists and experts, preventing the onset of puberty until someone is older is a hugely beneficial action. My nephew did not get this help and it made life far far harder than neccesary.
There's still so little known about gender dysphoria. There's a link between GD and schizophrenia, there's a link between GD and autism, there's a link between GD and depression. I'd say let's find out the root causes that leads to GD before we advocate for surgery on little kids(!) and pumping them full of all sorts of cocktails of medication.
 
There's still so little known about gender dysphoria. There's a link between GD and schizophrenia, there's a link between GD and autism, there's a link between GD and depression. I'd say let's find out the root causes that leads to GD before we advocate for surgery on little kids(!) and pumping them full of all sorts of cocktails of medication.

One of the key findings of the Cass Interim Report is that there is no real agreement as to what gender dysphoria actually is.
 
Are you not the poster that was accusing everyone of being a transphobe that said trans people shouldn't be allowed to compete with born females in elite level sports?

Apologies in advance if it wasnt you, I know I could have the wrong poster here.
It is him.
 
Firstly, I've not suggested the answer is to simply pull care. As you've quoted me saying, we should want the care to be extensively reviewed by medical experts. As things stand, this isn't the case. As a result, it's effectively experimental treatment.

Secondly, you're again being very selective. That link isn't even part of the interim report. It's essentially a blog post written to support medical colleagues receiving backlash. I'm also not talking necessarily about individual staff members, just as the interim report isn't, but the failings of the structure as a whole. I don't doubt that those working within it have been doing their best, but if the structure and processes are deeply flawed, their best will still be shoddy care.

i'm glad to know you are suggesting we increase the quality and care given to young people, i wholeheartedly agree. young people who are suffering in this area deserve the best quality care they can, and there should be consistency in the level of care provided to them.

and i didn't say it was part of the interim report. it is, however, a post from the author of the report warning against people using the findings of the report - a report aimed at improving processes and care - as a way to attack Tavistock, which is exactly what you are doing in all your posts.

i don't have time to go through all your many quotes, which basically provide a snippet from the report followed by your biased interpretation of it. i would suggest everyone reading this to read the report yourself:

https://cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

if i get time i'll try and reply to some of your more alarming sensationalist misinterpretations. but it's always the usual suspects in here and frankly it's a waste of time.
 
Wonderful response.

You don't agree with what he read on the internet and thinks it's true, and nothing else makes sense, so that makes you a terrible poster.
 
i'm glad to know you are suggesting we increase the quality and care given to young people. i wholeheartedly agree. young people who are suffering in this area deserve the best quality care they can, and there should be consistency in the level of care provided to them.

and i didn't say it was part of the interim report. it is, however, a post from the author of the report warning against people using the findings of the report - a report aimed at improving processes and care - as a way to attack Tavistock, which is exactly what you are doing in all your posts.

i don't have time to go through all your many points, which basically provide a snippet from the report followed by your biased interpretation of it. i would suggest everyone reading this to read the report yourself:

https://cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

if i get time i'll try and reply to some of your more alarming sensationalist misinterpretations. but it's always the usual suspects in here and frankly it's a waste of time.

Sorry, but you don't get to pretend to be arguing in good faith, state that you haven't got time to go through my "many points", then call those very same points, that you have literally just acknowledged you haven't read properly, "biased interpretation" and "alarming sensationalist misinterpretations".

How could you possibly know? You haven't had the time to go through them.

I didn't even add comment to a lot of the points. I simply copied excerpts from the summarised findings.

For someone who professes to care so deeply about these children, I'm absolutely amazed that you can deny sheer number of very concerning findings that are in the interim report.

In all honesty, I've seen absolutely nothing from you to suggest you've even read the thing, despite your suggestion for others to read it.

As for what you have quoted, it's still just a blog post supporting colleagues, and despite your interpretation, is not defending the Tavistock. It's defending the NHS and the individuals that worked at the Tavistock.

In my interim report I said that a single specialist provider model is not a safe or viable long-term option in view of concerns about lack of peer review and the ability to respond to the increasing demand.

Firstly, what is the "single specialist provider" if not the Tavistock and the GIDS service it ran? Secondly, it's not an attack to be critical of a service that the interim report has been very critical of. I've stated that the care was, to put it mildly, lacking, and added that the findings are tantamount to scandal, because they are.

Yes, the report is there as a platform to begin building a suitable care structure for the children and young people the Tavistock should have been there to support, but the fact remains that the report has found a number of worrying things in its review of the care provided there. I've not apportioned any blame to the NHS or any individuals working for this service, I've simply echoed the findings of the report.