Ah, so funny. You're real fun.
Islamophobia, homophobia, xenophobia, transphobia etc. are non-clinical phobias, and aren't considered anxiety disorders. They refer to irrational fear or hatred.
Transgender rights discussion
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Islamophobia, homophobia, xenophobia, transphobia etc. are non-clinical phobias, and aren't considered anxiety disorders. They refer to irrational fear or hatred.
What a strange thought to have, but I wouldn't rule it out, I guess such an irrational response might partly explain why she is so unkind towards marginalised people.
Indeed, and I'm interested in how language can be used to stifle debate and often suppress views which are perfectly rational and aren't governed by an irrational fear or a prejudice.
Take the first example you mentioned - Islamophobia. If a person from a non-islamic country objects to the precepts of Islam taking root and flourishing in the country he/she is from because he/she doesn't want to live in an islamic society, then that person isn't suffering from a phobia. Rather, it's an entirely rational and reasonable position to take.
Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, huh?
There's nothing rational or reasonable about your example. It's textbook Islamophobia.
Thank you for illustrating my point.
What point? Seems to me that you, despite having the difference explained to you, want to keep conflating clinical and non-clinical phobias.
You mean just like you did by warping the definitions of transphobia that I posted from commonly referenced, established websites - and that you sneakily left out when quoting me - to make the definitions conditional upon physical responses.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and considered you may have been joking about, which would have been alright if a little mean spirited. But your follow up makes it look like your deflection was malicious in nature.
So congratulations on taking me on this tangent distracting from the more important issue of discrimination faced by marginalised people, and stifling the fecking debate.
Because said example is a postjudice.
Postjudice requires a previous experience, but you mentioned no such thing in your example. Good job retroactively changing the premise.
Postjudice and a phobia aren't mutually exclusive either, so again:
Postjudice may require previous experience, but it also requires an examination or observation of the facts.
For example, a person doesn't require a previous experience of living under a fascist or communist state, to form an opinion on whether he/she wants to live under such a regime.
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As long as they've gotten their knowledge from factual and reliable sources, and their reasoning is sound, you're right that personal experience isn't required to know whether or not you'd want to live in certain form of society.
But to your example; Islam has arguably taken root and flourished in many Western countries, without these countries being anywhere near becoming Islamic societies. It would also require Islam to be a monolithic religion, which it isn't.
For these reasons, a negative attitude towards Islam and Muslims based on a fear of your country becoming some form of unspecified Islamic society is an irrational and unfounded fear, or Islamophobia if you will.
This thread has confused me now. @crappy all your fault.
Yep.
Let me help you then:
J.k. Rowling is a transphobe by every reasonable definition.
This thread is a discussion of J.K Rowling's transphobia, with given examples of her actively supporting transphobic comments and advocating for known transphobic persons. This is further underlined by a sustained campaign broadcast to her millions of fans and subscribers highlighting female apprehension towards trans rights. Some of these apprehensions are understandable and forgivable and others are reprehensible dog whistles that play on negative stereotypes of marginalised people.
Then there is a second layer of contributers that seeks to deny what is evident either due to a continued ignorance of the supplied evidence, or due to transphobic, malicious intent.
That is the thread.
J.k. Rowling is a transphobe by every reasonable definition.
This thread is a discussion of J.K Rowling's transphobia, with given examples of her actively supporting transphobic comments and advocating for known transphobic persons. This is further underlined by a sustained campaign broadcast to her millions of fans and subscribers highlighting female apprehension towards trans rights. Some of these apprehensions are understandable and forgivable and others are reprehensible dog whistles that play on negative stereotypes of marginalised people.
Then there is a second layer of contributers that seeks to deny what is evident either due to a continued ignorance of the supplied evidence, or due to transphobic, malicious intent.
That is the thread.
Well, this much was clear in about 20 pages. But then, there is a clear sidetrack about death threats and abuses.
Well damn. I guess it’s good I’ve never read one of her books then.
I was thinking about reading the latest strike novel but I will give it a pass
a bookstore here has banned Harry Potter books, whether you agree with that decision or not (I don't personally) banning books is probably the best PR an author can get to increase sales
I dislike her for her transphobic views but for me it's important to draw a distinction between that and her right to write what she wants - which I'd support
I suppose the one caveat to that would be if her books incited hate or violence (never read one myself)
I dislike her for her transphobic views but for me it's important to draw a distinction between that and her right to write what she wants - which I'd support
I suppose the one caveat to that would be if her books incited hate or violence (never read one myself)
I don't know how much PR she really needs or whether she can even sell anymore books at this rate, or even if the negative reaction to her views will offset any potential gains from the increased exposure. I don't like her and she seems to have quite a nasty character about her (even besides her trans views). I think Harry Potter is pretty terrible myself and having to sit through some of those films as a guardian was extremely tedious. I have no stake in her as a person or her work.
And I say all this as someone who agrees that banning Harry Potter books seems unhelpful. She's a popular author who has encouraged millions of children to read; her work brings joy to many. I've been to Harry Potter world and seen first hand the pleasure this stuff brings to young kids. There is very little in the books/films that I'm aware of that is excessively harmful to children (I know there are a few things, particularly around representation that could be better, but that is true of most things) and many of the book's messages are good ones.
Leave Harry Potter be, let J.K Rowling enjoy her billions, free from abusive messages and death threats. All I would hope for in exchange is that she stopped denigrating marginalised people.
And I say all this as someone who agrees that banning Harry Potter books seems unhelpful. She's a popular author who has encouraged millions of children to read; her work brings joy to many. I've been to Harry Potter world and seen first hand the pleasure this stuff brings to young kids. There is very little in the books/films that I'm aware of that is excessively harmful to children (I know there are a few things, particularly around representation that could be better, but that is true of most things) and many of the book's messages are good ones.
Leave Harry Potter be, let J.K Rowling enjoy her billions, free from abusive messages and death threats. All I would hope for in exchange is that she stopped denigrating marginalised people.
*Ben Shapiro has entered the thread*
I wonder if the level of scrutiny applied to her work/opinions has anything to do with the demographic of her readers? The people most invested in her books are at an age where they get the most worked up (EDIT: that’s a little unkind... care most passionately?) about social justice. Hence she is much more likely to be pilloried than someone who has always written books for adults.
Obviously, she’s ended up putting her head above the parapet by going public with her opinions on trans views but it all started with her being attacked about stuff to do with the sexuality of a fictional, non-human character (I think?) Which seemed kind of silly at the time. Her mistake was to get involved in that bun fight at all. She should really have tried to ignore it and hoped it went away.
This whole thing feels a a bit like the Graham Linehan descent into madness. Someone tries to take on the progressive internet on a controversial subject - feels attacked - and ends up doubling down, repeatedly, until their views become more and more extreme and objectionable. Basically, woke Twitter is now fighting a monster of its own creation.
Radicalisation via internet arguing is definitely a thing. Happens on redcafe all the time. I’ve come bloody close to saying Paul Pogba is shit at football, many times. Which is obviously stupid - and wouldn’t reflect my true feelings - but if you spend enough time butting heads with Pogba evangelists you get taken to some pretty dark places!
Obviously, she’s ended up putting her head above the parapet by going public with her opinions on trans views but it all started with her being attacked about stuff to do with the sexuality of a fictional, non-human character (I think?) Which seemed kind of silly at the time. Her mistake was to get involved in that bun fight at all. She should really have tried to ignore it and hoped it went away.
This whole thing feels a a bit like the Graham Linehan descent into madness. Someone tries to take on the progressive internet on a controversial subject - feels attacked - and ends up doubling down, repeatedly, until their views become more and more extreme and objectionable. Basically, woke Twitter is now fighting a monster of its own creation.
Radicalisation via internet arguing is definitely a thing. Happens on redcafe all the time. I’ve come bloody close to saying Paul Pogba is shit at football, many times. Which is obviously stupid - and wouldn’t reflect my true feelings - but if you spend enough time butting heads with Pogba evangelists you get taken to some pretty dark places!
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The readers of her books are in their 30s, I think it's pretty disingenuous to paint them as young lefties going through a phase, before the real world has hit them(at least that's what it sounds like you're suggesting, not sure as it reads like a pretty crap conservative generalisation of anyone younger than themselves).
First paragraph is really just a throwaway comment but it’s not as though kids only read Harry Potter books when they first came out, so the only Harry Potter fans on the planet are all 30+. My point is her readership demographic skews young. Which it does, obviously.
I was going to say I can’t imagine many people over the age of, say, 40 becoming a massive Harry Potter fan. But you never know. We’ve definitely got infantilised as a society over the last few decades. As BlindBoy says, the movie Big would make a lot less sense if it was set in the here and now.
Why on earth would a trans person be bigoted towards trans people. Do you maybe think she's just putting her opinion out there on biological sex and people that don't like it cry bigot? It's exactly the same as the 'you're racist' brigade.
I think a huge part of the scrutiny is down to disappointment.
No Harry Potter-loving leftie will expect Donald Trump or Ben Shapiro or Katie Hopkins to be anything other than vile and reactionary when it comes to social issues important to them (us, really - I loved the Harry Potter books and I'm very much a leftie), such as trans rights. It's no surprise, it's what they do. There is no disappointment.
Rowling, however... her books were and are an important part of many people's childhoods. She's a self-identified feminist, gay rights advocate, and so on. You'd expect someone like her to not be a transphobe - and then it is just that more painful when she turns out to be one.
She has the right to write whatever she wants, but then surely a book store has the right to not sell her books?
she's 'avin a larf!
There is a very high probability you didn't actually read his post. Either that, or you just chose to ignore it, so you could engage in your favourite activity: crying about people calling out bigotry and/or racism.
Oh, and using the word brigade.
Boom gottem.
Well, exactly. She’s basically on the same side. There’s a parallel universe where Rowling never got bullied by hundreds of reactionary Twitter twats and never ended up thinking any deeper about trans rights than her left-leaning inclination that they’re probably a good thing.
It’s only after ending up at the bottom of a progressive pile on that she started lashing out, doubling down, feeling more aligned with long-term transphobes that take her side in the argument and ended up with genuinely problematic opinions. Like I said, woke Twitter is trying to cancel a monster it helped to create. A bit more compassion, patience and understanding about whatever initial misstep first put her in the firing line could have ended up with a very different outcome. And that’s the irony every time stuff like this is discussed. Compassion, patience and understanding is supposed to be central to everything that the progressive left stands for. Spend any time on Twitter and they give the exact opposite impression. Absolutely riddled with bullying, mean-spirited, reactionary arseholes
Pretty sure you completely failed to read his post properly. The whole point is about whether Blair White the trans female is transphobic...that assertion is ludicrous in my opinion and switching the goal posts to ask whether minority groups can be bigoted towards other minority groups is stupid.
yeah of course
She seems like an absolute weapon
Harry Potter was shit anyway
Harry Potter was shit anyway
Are we sure the bullying came first? As DOTA pointed out a few times, she seems very well-versed in the relevant literature and her arguments and excuses are all very familiar. You're saying that came after finding herself piled on but do we know that for sure? I'm always wary of the "mean Twitter leftists radicalised me" narrative because, well, it's usually pushed by self-identified centrists who somehow happen to take the conservative position on pretty much everything.
I definitely could have my timelines wrong. My memory is that she first got shit over something to with the sexuality of an elf? And then it spiralled from there. If you allow yourself get immersed in a Twitter war like that I’m sure it’s easy enough to get up to speed on all the literature very quickly. Especially a person with thousands of followers, all taking sides and sharing links/youtube videos. Plus her day job allows her take as much time as she wants going down trans activist vs TERF rabbit holes.
Like I said, the whole thing reminds me very much of Graham Linehan. He’s a similarly damaged individual (bullied at school) who seemed to get triggered by mean-spirited Twitter arguments and ended up getting ludicrously over-invested in a debate that would have completely passed him by if he didn’t have a Twitter account. He ended up trying to become some sort of authority on feminism and gender because of a long running argument that was originally about video game journalism!
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Basically true. Especially when you feel like you’re being attacked by a mob. Human nature to feel more and more antipathy to whatever opinions the mob is trying to hector you into agreeing with. See also Paul Pogba, the world class midfield general.
Exactly. Well put.
I have to admit I'm not familiar with Linehan, not least because I tend to stay away from Twitter shitstorms; it is clearly beneficial for one's mental health to do so. And sure, I can see someone being pushed to extremes by hostile reactions - but I think only if they were strongly leaning that way anyway; no radical feminist is going to convince me to hate women. There were also many considered, intelligent rebuttals of Rowling's arguments but clearly, they don't seem to hold much weight.