Transgender Athletes

[maniak]

I appreciate how you got to this position and I think you're concerned with fairness and being an ally to a marginalised community.

I have to ask, why does 50% of the population have to be ignored and forced to cater to the wishes of a tiny minority that come exclusively from the other 50% of the population?

Secondly, if a trans athlete wishes to play sports, why can they not play in the group they used to play with?

Genuine questions.

I don't think professional cis women athletes who are against competing with transgender women make up 50% of the population., so I don't understand what this generalization is supposed to achieve. 99.9% of women will never be affected by any of this.

That small minority of women must be listened to and there are legitimate concerns. You'll find examples of transgender women agreeing with it. My position is that until there is an alternative that makes everyone at least a little bit happy, then exclusion is not an option. That's it.

You will have to ask transgender women that second question, although I make the distinction between playing sports and playing professional sports.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Have you read andy's posts? Literally saying young girls should be excluded from sports because they are transgender. Are definitions not a thing anymore?

I think the issue comes with the definition of trans and the somewhat tautological statement of trans women are women, which might lead some to a cul-de-sac where approach to this issue lacks nuance.

These young girls had to be young boys at some stage (otherwise they wouldn't be trans) and because they were once boys, that creates a problems, not limited to, sports. Which are sexed separated competitions.

So young girls are not being excluded, young girls whom were also boys might need a different approach to maintain fairness for everyone involved.

This is the challenge and their is no easy answer, certainly not as simple as you suggest.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Help me here, why is the bolded part important?

I'm not saying that is the most important factor. I was merely pointing out that this is where the trans athlete is coming from, which is why an open category is not a solution for them. It will continue to exclude them from the category they want to be in.

But just to be clear: I don't think this is an argument for including trans women in sports at all levels.

 

[Carolina Red]

On a school level? Not possible. Transgender girls must compete with other women.

It would be incredibly easy to do on a school level, as just about every sport started out as an “open” league until enough female athletes started playing the sport to gain their own division.

It’s literally happening right now with wrestling across the US.

Football is still just 1 team, so therefore “Open”.

 

[arnie_ni]

I don't think professional cis women athletes who are against competing with transgender women make up 50% of the population., so I don't understand what this generalization is supposed to achieve. 99.9% of women will never be affected by any of this.

That small minority of women must be listened to and there are legitimate concerns. You'll find examples of transgender women agreeing with it. My position is that until there is an alternative that makes everyone at least a little bit happy, then exclusion is not an option. That's it.

You will have to ask transgender women that second question, although I make the distinction between playing sports and playing professional sports.

But your putting one groups "happiness" over anothers the same way everyone else is, just a different group and you don't seem to realise that

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

I don't think professional cis women athletes who are against competing with transgender women make up 50% of the population., so I don't understand what this generalization is supposed to achieve. 99.9% of women will never be affected by any of this.

That small minority of women must be listened to and there are legitimate concerns. You'll find examples of transgender women agreeing with it. My position is that until there is an alternative that makes everyone at least a little bit happy, then exclusion is not an option. That's it.

You will have to ask transgender women that second question, although I make the distinction between playing sports and playing professional sports.

Re: bolded - why is that your position, perhaps we can explore that?

Because likely there is no solution which will make everyone happy, so due to the tyranny of the minority, then you will make sure your side of the argument gets to do as they wish?

 

[maniak]

What makes it impossible? And why is it a must to sanction female athletes?

I have explained it. Schools don't have enough transgender athletes to form teams, boys don't want to compete against girls and I consider it abusive to discriminate against a teen girl at such age, it can cause real mental health issues. School sports are, in my view, a right all kids should have.

 

[maniak]

I have to go, I'll reply to this tomorrow.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

99.9% of women will never be affected by any of this.

If 99.9% of trans people won't be affected by something, would the position be the same?

 

[VorZakone]

I've asked for examples of this working. No one has provided one. So I am open to the possibility but I'll need to see it to believe it.

What needs to work? Male athletes and transwomen athletes would have to compete in the same competition.

If any individual athlete in such competition has concerns, well then they just should have to accept it, or not?

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

I'm not saying that is the most important factor. I was merely pointing out that this is where the trans athlete is coming from, which is why an open category is not a solution for them. It will continue to exclude them from the category they want to be in.

But just to be clear: I don't think this is an argument for including trans women in sports at all levels.

I get that, just I hear this a lot and I used to take it on board without question. But the more I think about it, I'm really not sure it's a valid argument for why inclusion should be a thing.

Validation of identities is an odd concept, when you add in, the validation has to stem from boxing against natal women, it's even more strange.

The subject is deeply difficult but so much of it is cloaked in the language equivalent of reiki healing.

 

[Bebe]

Some time ago there was a transgender cyclist (the indoor type) on cnn talking about some trials with open competitions and in half of them she competed by herself. Men didn't want to compete against a woman and there weren't enough transgender cyclists.

I am concerned this will happen and these open events will just be a way for people to pat themselves on the back but in reality there is no real competition for these women.

I'm open to the possibility this may work in the future, but until it does, I prefer not excluding anyone in the present.

Your preference for not excluding anyone, as you term it, has significant harmful effects on competition for all women except trans women. This line of thinking addresses one harm sure, but creates another harm orders of magnitude greater in its place.

 

[Mike Smalling]

I get that, just I hear this a lot and I used to take it on board without question. But the more I think about it, I'm really not sure it's a valid argument for why inclusion should be a thing.

Validation of identities is an odd concept, when you add in, the validation has to stem from boxing against natal women, it's even more strange.

The subject is deeply difficult but so much of it is cloaked in the language equivalent of reiki healing.

It's an attempt at tolerance of course. Trans people in general are a marginalized group, so whenever there is a chance to recognize or include, the general consensus these days is to go for it.

But there is no solution that will satisfy everyone - at least not in the short term - and it's up to governing bodies to show some balls and make the right calls for fairness and safety. And I do wish we would hear more from the biological women in this, although I understand why they keep silent (even though I'm sure many have strong opinions on this).

 

[VorZakone]

It's an attempt at tolerance of course. Trans people in general are a marginalized group, so whenever there is a chance to recognize or include, the general consensus these days is to go for it.

But there is no solution that will satisfy everyone - at least not in the short term - and it's up to governing bodies to show some balls and make the right calls for fairness and safety. And I do wish we would hear more from the biological women in this, although I understand why they keep silent (even though I'm sure many have strong opinions on this).

Why do you think they keep silent?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Some time ago there was a transgender cyclist (the indoor type) on cnn talking about some trials with open competitions and in half of them she competed by herself. Men didn't want to compete against a woman and there weren't enough transgender cyclists.

I am concerned this will happen and these open events will just be a way for people to pat themselves on the back but in reality there is no real competition for these women.

I'm open to the possibility this may work in the future, but until it does, I prefer not excluding anyone in the present.

Yeah, I think the “open” category only works if it replaces the male category. So men have no choice but to compete in that category. If we’re going to inconvenience any sex it makes sense to inconvenience men. For obvious reasons. Plus we’re not altering their category to include people with biological advantages over them.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

It's an attempt at tolerance of course. Trans people in general are a marginalized group, so whenever there is a chance to recognize or include, the general consensus these days is to go for it.

But there is no solution that will satisfy everyone - at least not in the short term - and it's up to governing bodies to show some balls and make the right calls for fairness and safety. And I do wish we would hear more from the biological women in this, although I understand why they keep silent (even though I'm sure many have strong opinions on this).

I understand where you're coming from.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Why do you think they keep silent?

I thought that would be obvious, but I think many will keep silent to avoid the risk of transphobia accusations and a lot of unwanted media attention.

 

[stepic]

Validation of identities is an odd concept, when you add in, the validation has to stem from boxing against natal women, it's even more strange.

Why is it an odd concept? As cis people we have our identities validated on a daily basis, so maybe it does seem odd the idea that it may not happen. But if you can try and empathise you may understand why it’s important for trans people, and why having your identity not validated could be difficult (not to mention dangerous).

Trans people just want to live normal lives, and for some, part of that is doing something we as cis people can easily do and and enjoy - competing in sports.

Instead of sporting organisations being free to try and come up with solutions, by and large the media represents this wedge issue with general hysteria, with hyper focus on trans athletes who succeed (who remain to this day a minority) and ignoring those that don’t succeed, because that goes against the narrative and the general trans media climate, spurned on by Rowling, terfism and so on. The easiest opinion for these organisations is just to implement outright bans.

There are valid concerns, even if they are exaggerated, but I agree with the others that we should be trying for a better system than simply excluding all trans people from all sports. As Mike Smalling mentioned and I’ve said in the past, these ‘open’ category ideas are just non starters as a solution.

 

[Carolina Red]

“We should find a better system that doesn’t exclude people”

[solution that protects competitive fairness of female athletics AND prevents exclusion of trans athletes]

“Non starter”

 

[stepic]

“We should find a better system that doesn’t exclude people”

[solution that protects competitive fairness of female athletics AND prevents exclusion of trans athletes]

“Non starter”

This is such a basic point it’s absurd you guys continue to spend pages discussing it, and really highlights how little you even attempt to empathise with the trans position. To be clear again, because it’s been said multiple times already in this thread: Trans people do not want to compete against people that are not their own gender.

A lot of trans people are already facing a lack of inclusion and acceptance in their daily lives, can you not see why, when they’re just trying to play sports like everyone else, it’s problematic for a trans woman to be told ‘you’ve got to compete against men’?.

Just on a human level it makes no sense, even ignoring the fact the vast majority of trans people are not performing better than cis people.

I get you’re only concerned by the fairness of sport but it’s just quite clearly a non starter. If it was such an obvious answer it’d be implemented by now.

 

[Carolina Red]

This is such a basic point it’s absurd you guys continue to spend pages discussing it, and really highlights how little you even attempt to empathise with the trans position. To be clear again, because it’s been said multiple times already in this thread: Trans people do not want to compete against people that are not their own gender.

A lot of trans people are already facing a lack of inclusion and acceptance in their daily lives, can you not see why, when they’re just trying to play sports like everyone else, it’s problematic for a trans woman to be told ‘you’ve got to compete against men’?.

Just on a human level it makes no sense, even ignoring the fact the vast majority of trans people are not performing better than cis people.

I get you’re only concerned by the fairness of sport but it’s just quite clearly a non starter. If it was such an obvious answer it’d be implemented by now.

See: everything folks have already said today to maniak

 

[stepic]

See: everything folks have already said today to maniak

All of which is irrelevant, because they’re all missing the same point.

 

[Carolina Red]

All of which is irrelevant, because they’re all missing the same point.

We’d say the same about you.

 

[Wibble]

This is such a basic point it’s absurd you guys continue to spend pages discussing it, and really highlights how little you even attempt to empathise with the trans position. To be clear again, because it’s been said multiple times already in this thread: Trans people do not want to compete against people that are not their own gender.

A lot of trans people are already facing a lack of inclusion and acceptance in their daily lives, can you not see why, when they’re just trying to play sports like everyone else, it’s problematic for a trans woman to be told ‘you’ve got to compete against men’?.

Just on a human level it makes no sense, even ignoring the fact the vast majority of trans people are not performing better than cis people.

I get you’re only concerned by the fairness of sport but it’s just quite clearly a non starter. If it was such an obvious answer it’d be implemented by now.

But there seems to be no solution that gives trans women access to the women's comp that they want (and yes I get that they want to compete against their own gender) and is fair to CIS female athletes. This is of course especially true at the elite levels. Abolish sex/gender based competition and you punish all women. Make a trans only comp and it wouldn't work as trans people want to compete against their own gender and there aren't enough elite trans athletes for such a competition to work anyway. Allow trans athletes but set rules about testosterone etc are both medically/morally dubious and don't go anywhere near solving the fairness to CIS women issue. So what are we left with? A number of shit options where not discriminating against almost 50% of the athlete population seems to be the least shit option. And of course it is elite sport we are discussing.

 

[cafecillos]

It's great to see so many ardent supporters of fairness in female sports.

 

[BD]

“We should find a better system that doesn’t exclude people”

[solution that protects competitive fairness of female athletics AND prevents exclusion of trans athletes]

“Non starter”

You must be one of the most arrogant and obnoxious debaters on the caf

 

[JPRouve]

I have explained it. Schools don't have enough transgender athletes to form teams, boys don't want to compete against girls and I consider it abusive to discriminate against a teen girl at such age, it can cause real mental health issues. School sports are, in my view, a right all kids should have.

Girls don't want to compete with boys and they have a pretty good reason for it. I will always side with logic and in this case it means that boys are the ones that need to open their category, not girls.

 

[KirkDuyt]

So how about dividing sporting lines between sexes instead of genders? Or is that offensive somehow?

An "open" division seems moot as I doubt anyone will enter that one.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Why is it an odd concept? As cis people we have our identities validated on a daily basis, so maybe it does seem odd the idea that it may not happen. But if you can try and empathise you may understand why it’s important for trans people, and why having your identity not validated could be difficult (not to mention dangerous).

Trans people just want to live normal lives, and for some, part of that is doing something we as cis people can easily do and and enjoy - competing in sports.

Instead of sporting organisations being free to try and come up with solutions, by and large the media represents this wedge issue with general hysteria, with hyper focus on trans athletes who succeed (who remain to this day a minority) and ignoring those that don’t succeed, because that goes against the narrative and the general trans media climate, spurned on by Rowling, terfism and so on. The easiest opinion for these organisations is just to implement outright bans.

There are valid concerns, even if they are exaggerated, but I agree with the others that we should be trying for a better system than simply excluding all trans people from all sports. As Mike Smalling mentioned and I’ve said in the past, these ‘open’ category ideas are just non starters as a solution.

I enjoyed reading your post and get your point. I meant moreso why validation of identities is brought up when discussing pro sports participation, that doesn't really make sense to me.

Ref the bold, I don't think that is, I just think there is an absence of question around my gender identity. As a cis person, I'm not affirmed in my gender daily, I think this concept isn't really aligned to my daily experience.

 

[Rajma]

Listen, people simply need to accept that trans people will be unable to compete at elite levels against their male / female counterparts, that’s just something trans people will have to live with until there might be enough trans people to compete within their own class. It’s such a 1st world problem, it’s unbelievable. It sucks but many people can’t compete for multitude of health related reasons and I think it should simply be viewed from that perspective, as it’s something you couldn’t control at birth, now we have olympics for people with disabilities maybe at some point there will be one for trans people.

 

[Mike Smalling]

So how about dividing sporting lines between sexes instead of genders? Or is that offensive somehow?

An "open" division seems moot as I doubt anyone will enter that one.

Having categories based on assigned sex at birth would probably be the easiest to understand and implement, but couldn’t you run into problems with women that have taken testosterone as part of their transition process? Not really an expert here, but I think that might be an advantage.

And similar to the Open category suggestion it once again fails to address the issue from the perspective of the trans athlete, namely that they will not compete with the cis people of the gender they have transitioned to.

 

[Bole Top]

basically:

1. for women, a flawed solution that puts them at disadvantage is acceptable because it's "better than sitting at home"

2. for trans, no solution is good enough because we are only searching for a perfect solution and anything less won't work because "consequences"

seriously.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Having categories based on assigned sex at birth would probably be the easiest to understand and implement, but couldn’t you run into problems with women that have taken testosterone as part of their transition process? Not really an expert here, but I think that might be an advantage.

And similar to the Open category suggestion it once again fails to address the issue from the perspective of the trans athlete, namely that they will not compete with the cis people of the gender they have transitioned to.

I think there honestly isn't a solution that's "fair" for everyone. It's also not helped by the tone around the debate. There are a lot of genuine tranphobic people in the world, but not everyone that poses the current situation is a bit unfair is a transphobe out to exclude transpeople because they're inclined to do so.

I see someone suggesting that there should be a "trans" catagory, but that very firmly labels them as "different" which I think is wrong. Letting them compete with women is physically not fair in a lot of cases and putting them with men isn't fair either.

I see no solution honestly.

 

[arnie_ni]

This is such a basic point it’s absurd you guys continue to spend pages discussing it, and really highlights how little you even attempt to empathise with the trans position. To be clear again, because it’s been said multiple times already in this thread: Trans people do not want to compete against people that are not their own gender.

A lot of trans people are already facing a lack of inclusion and acceptance in their daily lives, can you not see why, when they’re just trying to play sports like everyone else, it’s problematic for a trans woman to be told ‘you’ve got to compete against men’?.

Just on a human level it makes no sense, even ignoring the fact the vast majority of trans people are not performing better than cis people.

I get you’re only concerned by the fairness of sport but it’s just quite clearly a non starter. If it was such an obvious answer it’d be implemented by now.

They aren't playing sports though. They are competing in a competition that required fairness.

 

[JPRouve]

I think there honestly isn't a solution that's "fair" for everyone. It's also not helped by the tone around the debate. There are a lot of genuine tranphobic people in the world, but not everyone that poses the current situation is a bit unfair is a transphobe out to exclude transpeople because they're inclined to do so.

I see someone suggesting that there should be a "trans" catagory, but that very firmly labels them as "different" which I think is wrong. Letting them compete with women is physically not fair in a lot of cases and putting them with men isn't fair either.

I see no solution honestly.

An open event fixes the problem. And to answer your previous point, it would be the only option for male athletes. As far as I know it's also already what "male" categories are at the exception of combat sports.

 

[arnie_ni]

Listen, people simply need to accept that trans people will be unable to compete at elite levels against their male / female counterparts, that’s just something trans people will have to live with until there might be enough trans people to compete within their own class. It’s such a 1st world problem, it’s unbelievable. It sucks but many people can’t compete for multitude of health related reasons and I think it should simply be viewed from that perspective, as it’s something you couldn’t control at birth, now we have olympics for people with disabilities maybe at some point there will be one for trans people.

I wouldn't be calling it a 1st world problem. For a trans person it's an everyday even minute problem of a major magnitude. It's not fair to dismiss that just because we don't agree they should be able to compete against cis women in sport.

 

[arnie_ni]

You must be one of the most arrogant and obnoxious debaters on the caf

How have you arrived at that bases on that post?

 

[BenitoSTARR]

I like to think I’m extremely liberal and as left leaning and progressive as you can be, especially on social issues, but I really don’t think there’s an easy and fair solution to this area.

I’d agree with this. There isn’t a way to satisfy everyone’s wants and needs.

Biologically sexed women may reasonably want to compete against other biologically sexed women, this does not make them transphobic. There are legitimate sporting issues in terms of biological advantages especially depending on levels of biological transition (if that’s the right phrase?).

Trans women may also reasonably want to compete against biologically sexed women on the basis they are also women from a gender perspective.

As far as I know sport has always been split based on sex not gender (id appreciate a history lesson if this is not the case).

The issue appears to be more surrounding biologically sexed males who identify as females from a gender perspective competing in traditionally female sexed events. I am unaware of any controversy surrounding biologically sexed females who identify as males (trans men) competing in biologically sexed male competitions.

 

[KirkDuyt]

An open event fixes the problem. And to answer your previous point, it would be the only option for male athletes. As far as I know it's also already what "male" categories are at the exception of combat sports.

That doesn't solve the argument that transitioned women want to be the same as every other woman, which is their goal.

 

[Red Stone]

I'm sorry, but having athletes that have gone through male puberty compete against cis-women is insanity to me. If you look at the world age records in athletics boys start beating every single women's world record (including the ones set by Flo-Jo and equally steroid-pumped runners from Germany, the Eastern Bloc and China 30-40 years ago) around the time they're 13 or 14 years old. Consider that this is a limited talent pool since a lot of kids either won't have hit puberty at all or only just started and thus haven't had time to develop physically, so these are just the best of the small portion of kids who are very early developers, not necessarily the ones who will go on to greatness as adults. They're also almost certainly not doping at that age, so they're at a further disadvantage against a lot of the women. Furthermore, they haven't had the benefit of an optimal training programme like elite level female athletes will have had for years by the time they make it to the Olympic level, at least not for long enough to make a significant difference. Lastly, in athletics most people that age haven't even figured out which event they want to specialise in, so they're physically talented jack-of-all-trades types that haven't done much event-specific training to fine-tune their technique and their bodies for the event. All that stacks the cards pretty signiificantly against the boys, but their overwhelmingly superior physical strength already at 13 or 14 is more than enough to compensate. The difference between men and women is just so spectacularly enormous, and that difference is life-long even after transitioning and hormone therapy. Considering a lot of sports also involve heavy contact it's genuinely dangerous to put a trans woman up against cis-women.

I want people to both be accepted for who they are and to be able to pursue their dreams in their sport of choice. The joy of doing a sport is after all a right all people should have, but being an elite athlete is a privilege, and one only a fraction of a percent of people, cis or trans, get to experience no matter how hard they work to achieve their goals. The sad reality is that the vast majority of, if not all, trans woman that have gone through male puberty and are good enough to compete at that level simply wouldn't have been able to do it if not for the fact that they were born biologically male. Elite sports is an exclusive club for people of immense natural physical talent, which being born biologically male isn't. That's just the brutal truth. I don't like it and realise that it's exclusionary and unfair, but this is one of those problems where there is simply no solution that lets everyone win. In the name of fairness and common sense the only reasonable option is the one that doesn't put biologically female athletes as a whole at a massive disadvantage. Allowing trans women to compete against cis-women will be akin to allowing almost limitless doping, because that's essentially what cis-women will have to do to even have a hope of being competitive if a talented trans athlete comes along in their sport. Over 200 years of feminism only to sooner or later have to take a giant leap backwards and essentially tell every female athlete out there that they can never be good enough to win in their sport any more because they weren't born biologically male. That'll go down a treat.