Transgender Athletes

[JPRouve]

I think most people would agree that solving this for fairness to the benefit of the majority (i.e. the cis women athletes) would be really easy. It's the addition of the goal of inclusivity of a slim minority that complicates it. So it's really how you balance those two goals.

Those suggesting the open category is an easy fix places almost all of the importance on the fairness part, and little to none on the inclusivity part. This is fine as long as you are honest about it. Saying that "Well, cis women can choose the open category as well" is just disingenuous.

If you look at sport broadly, I would say there are three parameters that should guide how those two goals are balanced.
1) The level of the competition (i.e. elite vs. amateur). The more you approach the elite level, the more you have to target fairness.
2) The age of the competitors. At lower ages (i.e. pre-pubescent) the physical advantage of being born male are more limited.
3) The nature of the sport. The higher the degree of physical traits required to succeed, the more you have exclude - especially when physical contact is also involved.

The problem is that one of the goal shouldn't be one unless you just get rid of all gender/sex divisions.

 

[cafecillos]

This is the solution that has repeatedly been presented as "the least shit", which is very different to how you're pretending it has been presented.

It's also been repeatedly rebuffed as "absolutely not an option" with no real explanation other than "it's not perfect" and/or "it doesn’t achieve what I want it to achieve".

The thread has gone on so long because no agreement has been made between the posters debating (and because people keep bringing up the same points and asking the same questions).

We then have a small group of posters repeatedly inferring (or outright saying) that those who disagree with them are transphobic, often with a completely disingenuous dose of "you probably don't even like women's sports" thrown in for good measure.

That's absolutely not true, and there are several example in the last couple of pages. I don't need to pretend.

Then I'll be more direct with you. It is not a distinction that requires to be made. Trans-woman or cis-woman, Trans-man or cis-man ? Sure I'm happy with these phrases and for people to identify in any way they want. However the words "male" and "female" are scientific labels used to refer to biological sex. Biological sex is real and immutable in humans. it requires no qualifier. I'm happy to talk about a trans-man but not a trans-male.

In colloquial language, "male" and "female" are absolutely not "scientific labels", and I think you know that perfectly well.

You can still address the points and I will add one question, are you in favor of the creation of a cis-women category?

I won't, because I'm not a woman, a trans person, an athlete, a regulator of sports or an expert in transgenderism and/or gender dysphoria, so my opinion is absolutely pointless. I will though push back occasionally against people who don't admit the complexity of the issue. I also don't believe some of the most belligerent posters have the slightest genuine interest in women sport outside this debate. I can't prove it, but we all know it.

 

[Mike Smalling]

The problem is that one of the goal shouldn't be one unless you just get rid of all gender/sex divisions.

I don't follow. Are you saying that the goal of inclusion shouldn't be part of the consideration at all across any level of competitive sport?

 

[cafecillos]

It's because that side of the fence is steped in "no debate" and "no compromise". It's so dogmatic that you end up with the above position.

This is just taking the piss, seriously.

 

[JPRouve]

I don't follow. Are you saying that the goal of inclusion shouldn't be part of the consideration at all across any level of competitive sport?

Not in an absolute way and not within different categories. For example an heavyweight shouldn't be included in a flyweight competition.

Sport as a whole should inclusive and have an appropriate place for everyone but those places should be fair and sensible. And that applies to everyone, regardless of creed, age, gender, sex or weight. Though the latter actually has minimum and maximum weight limits.

 

[Beachryan]

So if I understand it correctly, these seem to be factual statements:
- There are traits obtained through being born of the male sex that in many sports give an advantage
- There are a growing number of trans-women who have at least some part of this advantage, over cis-women anyway
- There is not a flipside of this I've heard yet (trans-men having some biological advantage over cis-men)
- Competitve sport is reasonably pointless if there is not a clear, agreed-upon playing field
- You can't have a sport where a large percentage of qualifiers are inherently at a disadvantage simply because of who they are (in this case cis-women)

Surely the only option is then a trans-women category as others have stated? At least at competitive levels. At fun/amateur levels I see no issue with trans-women playing (and doing well) against cis-women. If you make an open category what stops almost elite cis-men from dominating?

 

[JPRouve]

So if I understand it correctly, these seem to be factual statements:
- There are traits obtained through being born of the male sex that in many sports give an advantage
- There are a growing number of trans-women who have at least some part of this advantage, over cis-women anyway
- There is not a flipside of this I've heard yet (trans-men having some biological advantage over cis-men)
- Competitve sport is reasonably pointless if there is not a clear, agreed-upon playing field
- You can't have a sport where a large percentage of qualifiers are inherently at a disadvantage simply because of who they are (in this case cis-women)

Surely the only option is then a trans-women category as others have stated? At least at competitive levels. At fun/amateur levels I see no issue with trans-women playing (and doing well) against cis-women. If you make an open category what stops almost elite cis-men from dominating?

Almost elite cis-men wouldn't dominate in an open category since it's the category of elite men.

 

[Alex99]

The problem is that one of the goal shouldn't be one unless you just get rid of all gender/sex divisions.

It's the inherent contradiction within the argument for inclusiveness over fairness.

Basically everyone on the side for inclusiveness acknowledges that, at some point, a line has to be drawn, and in doing so, some people have to be excluded.

I've yet to see anyone on that side come close to reconciling this.

That's absolutely not true, and there are several example in the last couple of pages. I don't need to pretend.

Quote them then. By and large, it has been acknowledged that the issue is difficult to find a solution for, and that the "simple and easy" solution of an open category remains a shit option for trans-athletes. However, it is at least clear in what it achieves and how it could be implemented.

 

[Beachryan]

Almost elite cis-men wouldn't dominate in an open category since it's the category of elite men.

So there'd no longer be a men only, rather cis-women and open? Fair enough, though do trans-women not have a disadvantage there for biological reasons? (Mainly thr positive impact of testosterone?)

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

This is just taking the piss, seriously.

I've been around this debate for a long time, both sides have this and the centre ground is swallowed up by it.

 

[JPRouve]

So there'd no longer be a men only, rather cis-women and open? Fair enough, though do trans-women not have a disadvantage there for biological reasons? (Mainly thr positive impact of testosterone?)

Yes. And yes an open category would have cis-men at the top more often than not.

Edit: i would propose female and open categories because transman should have the option to be in a category where they aren't massively disadvantaged.

 

[cafecillos]

I've been around this debate for a long time, both sides have this and the centre ground is swallowed up by it.

You said "that side" though. One side.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

You said "that side" though. One side.

Yes, the other side is as dogmatic at times. I was responding to a quote about one side, so I would discuss that side in my response.

 

[Roane]

Isn't the issue here that people are arguing over too wide a range?

What I mean is someone argued that people, kids, should have access to the joy of sport. Which I don't believe anyone can deny.

But then we carry on to elite sport. Which I would argue is exclusionary by nature. Always has been to me. Hence the rules and regulations in most elite sports.

Now I've played cricket to a decent level and used to fight (kick boxing). In kick boxing during classes/gym it was pretty easy going. Quite mixed. But as you went up levels the restrictions became severe (for want of a better word) in terms of weight etc

Cricket in my younger days was all male. But last season I started again. At a much lower level as at 52 it's about just enjoying myself. I play Saturday and Sunday for the same club but different leagues. We have more interest from cis girls/women nowadays and at my club we have a young transgender person (female identifying as male).

This person is 15 and played in a girls team originally. Has turned out for one of our teams and I've literally seen the pain and emotions they have gone through because at this level they are not very good simply due to bowlers being faster and batsmen being stronger. To the point they have cried after games and now want to give up cricket.

 

[arnie_ni]

The really hard bit about this whole issue is that you can’t really focus on elite sports only. Fairness is central to all sports, at any level. You also have to think about safety issues, in sports like rugby, wrestling, or boxing. So you do need to think about amateur sports too. Then you have to think about at what age does biology matter? Which is, at least, nothing new. There’s a lot of sports (e.g. football) which allow boys and girls compete together up to a certain age. But there are really tough decisions to be made from quite early on in most sports.

I agree with @KirkDuyt. It’s just not possible to come up with a solution that will keep everyone happy. There will always be a trade off between being inclusive to trans women athletes and making sure that sporting competition is fair and safe for cis women athletes. So whatever “solution” we go with needs to be decided by which side of that trade off society (specifically sporting people and organisations) thinks is more important.

Yea the next question then becomes when does inclusion become the no.1 priority in sports, not fairness/integrity whatever you want to call it. At what level do you put fairness secondary? Absolute minefield

 

[arnie_ni]

This is basically what woman's sport has been for the last 100 years, the problem is that males now want to compete in it.

I mean it's a bit more nuanced than that. It's posts like this that cause @maniak to blanket label eveyeone a transphobe but putting female fairness 1st.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Cricket in my younger days was all male. But last season I started again. At a much lower level as at 52 it's about just enjoying myself. I play Saturday and Sunday for the same club but different leagues. We have more interest from cis girls/women nowadays and at my club we have a young transgender person (female identifying as male). This person is 15 and played in a girls team originally. Has turned out for one of our teams and I've literally seen the pain and emotions they have gone through because at this level they are not very good simply due to bowlers being faster and batsmen being stronger. To the point they have cried after games and now want to give up cricket.

That’s really sad. And trans men tend to get glossed over in these conversations. As well as the crushing demoralisation you mention there are also safety issues to think about. Imagine this kid wanted to play rugby, instead of cricket? Or MMA?!? I guess a big difference is that their choice to compete in their chosen gender doesn’t have any adverse effect at all on the people already competing. So maybe that’s why it so rarely gets talked about?

EDIT: Maybe they don’t have a choice? Are they forced to play for a male team once they transition? This is all so complicated!

 

[arnie_ni]

We are constantly being told in this very thread that the solution is very easy and very simple though.

There is a solution that at least could be trilled. Female sex.... other.... 2 categories with the acknowledgement it isn't perfect. It's surely better than what is currently happening and that is trans male to women aren't allowed to compete.

 

[arnie_ni]

I'm not a transphobe, people can claim any gender they like, it doesn't bother me at all. However I do care about woman's sport and recognise the reality of biological sex.

If biological males are allowed to compete in woman's sport, then it loses all meaning. I'm a big fan of cycling, I love the woman's tour as much as the mens, Demi Vollering is fantastic, but there's no way she's going up the Col du Tourmalet as fast as a biological male.

Your use of language in the original post wasn't helpful or useful though

 

[arnie_ni]

I don't think that distinction really existed in people's minds when the women's events were created. It's arguable given who wrote the rules (men) and the nature of the rules (with only certain sports deemed suitable for women) that they were gender based.

In practical terms though, as women's competitive participation became more common so did sex tests - often following complaints by unhappy competitors. A judge (not even always a doctor) taking a look at external genetalia gradually got overtaken by drug/blood chemistry testing and genetic testing and that added a whole new set of questions.

The competitive advantage of having the right genes and going through male puberty shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. That used to be the end of the discussion. Now it's a starting point.

Personally I don't think the fledgling pro women's sports like football can cope with gender based definitions. Same with most sports based on physical attributes as well as technical skill.

Good post, makes sense to me when explained like this

 

[arnie_ni]

The open category is being mentioned by several posters as an obvious solution that "fixes" the problem. If it's so obvious, how come we have a 69-page, 3k-reply thread on this very forum alone?

I don't think we claim it fixes the problem entirely. To us it's the best of a set of bad options.

 

[maniak]

I mean it's a bit more nuanced than that. It's posts like this that cause @maniak to blanket label eveyeone a transphobe but putting female fairness 1st.

You guys never run out of straw...

 

[arnie_ni]

That’s really sad. And trans men tend to get glossed over in these conversations. As well as the crushing demoralisation you mention there are also safety issues to think about. Imagine this kid wanted to play rugby, instead of cricket? Or MMA?!? I guess a big difference is that their choice to compete in their chosen gender doesn’t have any adverse effect at all on the people already competing. So maybe that’s why it so rarely gets talked about?

EDIT: Maybe they don’t have a choice? Are they forced to play for a male team once they transition? This is all so complicated!

They probably want to play for the male team as it'd what they identify as. The same way we know the male to female athletes want to compete against cis females.

 

[arnie_ni]

You guys never run out of straw...

I was on your side for this one. The post needed called out

 

[Pogue Mahone]

They probably want to play for the male team as it'd what they identify as. The same way we know the male to female athletes want to compete against cis females.

Yeah, probably. But what happens if their experience is like the young lad @Roane described? They just give up sports?

 

[UpWithRivers]

I get its hard growing up transgender but they have to face some realities. My son wants to play pro football. Its not happening. My niece wants to be a supermodel. That aint happening either. Its just the reality of life we all face to some degree or other. Transgender people should be given all the respect, support and rights that is possible. But there are some realities that just are not. If you were born a man then you shouldn't be able to compete in women's sports and vice vera. If you are not 10/10 out of 10 beautiful then you cant compete in Miss World. If you arn't black you probably cant join a black support group. If you never joined the army you won't get a medal of honor. It sucks but thats ok.

 

[VorZakone]

I get its hard growing up transgender but they have to face some realities. My son wants to play pro football. Its not happening. My niece wants to be a supermodel. That aint happening either. Michael Jackson wanted to be white. He tried. Its just the reality of life we all face to some degree or other. Transgender people should be given all the respect, support and rights that is possible. But there are some realities that just are not. If you were born a man then you shouldn't be able to compete in women's sports and vice vera. If you are not 9/10 out of 10 looking then you cant compete in Miss World. If you arn't black you probably cant join a black support group. If you never joined the army you won't get a medal of honor. And thats ok.

MJ wanted to be white?

 

[UpWithRivers]

MJ wanted to be white?

Ohh maybe that was an incorrect view. He had vitiligo? I cant remember anymore if he wanted to or it was a rumor. Ill edit my post. Thanks for correcting me

 

[Nogbadthebad]

Everyone has a right to be who they want to be. Trans, asexual, gay, straight or any combination.

But we have mens and womens competitions for a reason. Because if we did not, in most competitive sports, women would never win a thing. I donlt think anyone who has been through male puberty should be competing against women. They have an in-built advantage that is the very reason we have women's competitions in the first place.

 

[DanH]

Yeah, probably. But what happens if their experience is like the young lad @Roane described? They just give up sports?

It is a sad case and it must be difficult for him, but I don't know what can really be done in this instance? I might have missed something when I was reading it but it seems like he is realising that due to physical attributes he is not going to make it to a decent level in this sport? That's something a lot of people have to go through and it can be a horrible experience but it's a fairly common reality. In this case their identity is being respected. The other option would be to say that they could still play for the female team but wouldn't that be in some way denying that identity?

 

[R'hllor]

Nobody listens Bill Burr

 

[RedC]

Yeah, probably. But what happens if their experience is like the young lad @Roane described? They just give up sports?

Find another sport? I think accepting that you're shite at a sport is something a lot of people go through. Understandably it's not nice, but you can't be trying to account for that in reality.

 

[Revan]

And we accept that fact because it's visible, on average men are significantly taller than women, 10 to 12 cm is significant. Now how many women are actually out of the norm when it comes to their biology, what if it is the same proportion than with height? We accept that a lot of women secretes abnormal amounts of growth hormones, why the same couldn't be true for other hormones?

Oh for sure. But I guess the difference in height than in strength for example, is far more smaller. For example, picking randomly a male and a female, there is some small but not insignificant chance that the woman is taller (around 1 in 40), but there is very close to 0 probability that the woman is stronger and faster.

So I do not think it is just a matter of getting used to it. More like that the height advantage is significantly smaller than the strength advantage. That's why when it comes to physical sports such as football, even young male teams (U-15) are able to easily defeat women teams. The genetic advantage is just so much higher thus I do not think your analogy is that spot on.

In other words, if you check the height distribution, there is a lot of overlap between women and men, and of course the outliers in the women are gonna be taller than almost every men. On the other hand, there is close to no overlap when it comes to strength distribution.

 

[Maticmaker]

Sport, in particular events such as the Olympics are meant to be all inclusive. We hear it every time the events take place

There are Olympic games( both Winter and Summer) for men and women and Paralympic games for the disabled , then why not an Olympics for Transgender athletes?

OK, this demand might be very small to start off with, but it can be accommodated within the able bodied athletes programme to start off with and in time, possibly a section for disabled transgender athletes in the Paralympics.

If the Olympic idea is truly meant to be an all embracing and inclusive idea, then surely a way has to be found?

 

[Gehrman]

Sport, in particular events such as the Olympics are meant to be all inclusive. We hear it every time the events take place

There are Olympic games( both Winter and Summer) for men and women and Paralympic games for the disabled , then why not an Olympics for Transgender athletes?

OK, this demand might be very small to start off with, but it can be accommodated within the able bodied athletes programme to start off with and in time, possibly a section for disabled transgender athletes in the Paralympics.

If the Olympic idea is truly meant to be an all embracing and inclusive idea, then surely a way has to be found?

Because then they would be singled out as transgender while a lot of them want to compete with biological women. Its not something im against and if transwomen were for it, then I cant see why not. But it would always be a case of "Can transgender women compete against biological women and have the choice between competing against transwomen or are they excluded from competing against biological women?".

 

[Maticmaker]

Because then they would be singled out as transgender while a lot of them want to compete with biological women. Its not something im against and if transwomen were for it, then I cant see why not. But it would always be a case of "Can transgender women compete against biological women and have the choice between competing against transwomen or are they excluded from competing against biological women?".

Fair enough, I don't pretend to understand the whole issues involved, it just seemed to me to be a 'no brainer'.

I am sure there are some disabled athletes who believe they could compete fairly and effectively with their able-bodied athletes in their chosen sport, but would it be fair competition?

 

[SilentWitness]

I am sure there are some disabled athletes who believe they could compete fairly and effectively with their able-bodied athletes in their chosen sport, but would it be fair competition?

There are athletes who have competes at both the Paralympics and Olympics.

 

[Gehrman]

Fair enough, I don't pretend to understand the whole issues involved, it just seemed to me to be a 'no brainer'.

I am sure there are some disabled athletes who believe they could compete fairly and effectively with their able-bodied athletes in their chosen sport, but would it be fair competition?

Im all for professional sports at the highest levels being divided by sex(or the sub caterogy you mentioned)if that's what women want but i don't even know what overwhelming attitude is tbh. Im pretty certain no one back in the days when sports were labelled as womens sports were thinking are we talking about women or ciswomen?

 

[Maticmaker]

There are athletes who have competes at both the Paralympics and Olympics.

Again, fair enough, if all those competing in both Paralympics and Olympics formats, accept there is real competition in both formats when this occurs. However on the face of it from whats been emerging from Paris it seems there is some doubt as to the belief in the equality of opposition, especially for biological women when transgender athletes, especially in power sports like boxing, are competing.

In whatever format there has to be fairness in the competition and everyone has to agree to that. In this case it seems one sports body is saying/using one thing/set of rules and one is saying something else, and using some other criteria. Some sort of 'get your acts together' seems to be needed!

 

[Wibble]

No, it doesn't and the issue we were talking about isn't about gender, it's about sex and development. What you are suggesting is the literal equivalent of basing it on penis vs vagina until we understood that it was more complicated than that. In the case of DSD, you have XY people who due to their condition have complete sex reversal, yes their chromosomes are XY but they develop as female, and it's congenital so puberty can be put to the side.

Since we know most of the relevant informations in the case of people with DSD, the only reasonable way to answer these questions is by determining how each individuals biology work, to determine their actual sex based on all our current knowledge. Otherwise we ostracize people from sport, not because we have to but because we don't want to use our medical knowledge.


Edit: Also the current estimation is that it concerns 1 out of 5000 babies. So it's not something that we can or should put aside, in reality there is likely a lot female athletes with the condition and we had no idea.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5825923/#:~:text=Introduction,births (2, 3).

https://www.hudson.org.au/news/new-findings-impact-disorders-of-sex-development/

Sounds totally unworkable and we would end up with an utter mess.