Transgender Athletes

McGrathsipan said:
Trans women are trams women. Not biological women. Biology has everything to do with athleticism whether you want to admit it or not

Biological women athletes should absolutely be protected in competition.

You claiming an entire group of people are being denied identity is hysterical. What about the women that have trained for years?
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This is pretty unarguable really. In track and field athletics for example a competitive boy will start beating women's world records at around 15 years old. The cardiovascular advantage is baked in for life. it's true in a lot of sports, I'm a fairly ok middle aged male road cyclist, I'm not remotely competitive in mens racing but my times are as good as or better than excellent women 20 years younger than me.
 
McGrathsipan said:
Trans women are trams women. Not biological women. Biology has everything to do with athleticism whether you want to admit it or not

Biological women athletes should absolutely be protected in competition.

You claiming an entire group of people are being denied identity is hysterical. What about the women that have trained for years?
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That this is even up for a debate is mind blowing.
 
Gavinb33 said:
Transgender athletes would only impact womens sports in a big way in most male sports a trans man would not stand very much of chance I wonder why that is?
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Yeah, sooo strange (irony on) that we dont have any transgender man that wants to compete against man, for example in MMA or basektball.
 
jojojo said:
I suspect that in many sports we will end up with an open category and a female one, but we'll still struggle to define female because it's more complex medically/scientifically than it first sounds.
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No we do not. It is cery clear, scientifically there is no debate
 
The Connecticut policy allows transgender athletes to compete purely on the basis of gender identification I think? It’s a potential massive performance advantage at 17/18 if I’ve understood that correctly.

Fair enough to let them all compete but could they not have 2 winners in this type of scenario/extend the number of finalists, rather than pretending everyone is equal?
 
Carolina Red said:
Probably. Anything is possible. But it shouldn’t happen in a female sports division. Period.
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Nope, it doesn't matter how sure you think you are or how much you know about biology (plenty of biology experts on the Caf, it seems), there's certainly a debate to be had, and there's certainly a debate being had right now, both on the Caf and elsewhere, so that "period" shite is probably better left off the arguments. And even if we categorically agreed that "it shouldn't happen in a female sports division", which we don't, we'd still had to figure out the alternative, and the whole "trans division" idea is very likely not it, as there are so few trans athletes that it would simply be unfeasible in many sports and/or age brackets within sports. I'm not so sure about the "open" category idea, it sounds more workable, but I'm sure plenty of issues would arise when examined in depth.
 
giorno said:
I'm weaker and slower than Bolt. Should Bolt be forbidden from competing against me because of it?

And no. The correct statement is I'm not a woman. Biology has nothing to do with it

The next person to use the term biological woman is going on ignore. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt here, though it's disheartening
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What a stupid and wrong argument on all possible levels. And on top, it is easy to claim as a man, but for girls/women, it is an issue
 
Escobar said:
That this is even up for a debate is mind blowing.
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This. Like how can anyone seriously argue that there is no unfair advantage in transgender women competing with non transgender is beyond me but that's the result of years of radical left brainwashing I suppose. We struggle to define woman nowadays because people are afraid to offend some group and be called whatever-phobic. Madness.
 
Gavinb33 said:
Transgender athletes would only impact womens sports in a big way in most male sports a trans man would not stand very much of chance I wonder why that is?
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No, you don't.

You see, this is the sort of sarcasm and constant mockery that makes it very difficult to believe that many people who are apparently defending cis women on this are not doing it out of plain transphobia.
 
stepic said:
So sometimes she lost to trans women, and also lost to other cis women

Sometimes she beat trans women, and also beat other cis women

sounds like sports to me. What’s the issue again besides blatant transphobia? Oh right yes trans women should never be allowed to beat a cis woman ever, got it
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There is an MMA observational quip in there somewhere.
 
dove said:
This. Like how can anyone seriously argue that there is no unfair advantage in transgender women competing with non transgender is beyond me but that's the result of years of radical left brainwashing I suppose. We struggle to define woman nowadays because people are afraid to offend some group and be called whatever-phobic. Madness.
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I'm not sure this is really the case. Most acknowledge the biology aspect but they prioritize transgender participation over the complains of biological women.
 
dove said:
This. Like how can anyone seriously argue that there is no unfair advantage in transgender women competing with non transgender is beyond me but that's the result of years of radical left brainwashing I suppose. We struggle to define woman nowadays because people are afraid to offend some group and be called whatever-phobic. Madness.
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Agreed the current ideology means to question one thing is to question everything and anything other than 100% of what the TA's are asking for means being labelled transphobic
 
cafecillos said:
No, you don't.

You see, this is the sort of sarcasm and constant mockery that makes it very difficult to believe that many people who are apparently defending cis women on this are not doing it out of plain transphobia.
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It's not transphobic it's true, imagine a biological women who has transitioned to a man (which is fine be who you want to be) going to race Usain Bolt in 100 meters at his peak there wouldn't be much of an argument on who would win no.

A biological man who transitioned to be a women again completely fine, going to race against Dina Asher Smith you could make a legitimate argument that person could win that race in a way you couldn't for the trans man surely you see that or not for fear of being labelled transphobic

Maybe sarcasm is not the one but the rest is so blindingly obvious that I do not see this being an argument in any way
 
VorZakone said:
I'm not sure this is really the case. Most acknowledge the biology aspect but they prioritize transgender participation over the complains of biological women.
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And why would that be? Isn't it because it's the "correct opinion" according to mainstream? A lot of people have vastly different opinions on the same topic depending on the environment where they express it. One being what they really think, another being the politically correct one. You can support transgenders in everything but if you think they should not be allowed to compete with biological women (for quite obvious reasons), you will suddenly be called out for wanting to strip their human rights, transphobic and will be cancelled by the radicals on any social media platform. It's just the way it is with this whole gender topic.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
Nobody is denying anyone their identity. You're just using that as your argument because you cannot come up with a valid reason as to why they should be allowed to compete in a category of weaker cis women. They're women but with the ability of a male due to genetics which does not change based on what you identify as. They have the strength, genetics and power of a man even though they're women. If a cis woman loses against another cis woman there won't be any questions or doubts that it's a loss because it's a fair fight. If they lose against a transwoman then it's not a fair loss. It's a loss against someone who will always have an edge due to strength, endurance, ability, power, speed just to name a few criteria that makes it an unfair competition.
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Any physical advantage trans women may have over cis women is dwarfed by the advantage men have over trans women, it's not even close. When a good trans woman athlete competes against a good cis woman athlete the result will be close, while if a good trans woman athlete competes against a good cis man athlete it'll be like the heavyweight vs featherweight example you yourself brought up.

We are talking about very strong hormonal treatments here, and often surgery. The strength and power output absolutely do change, they fall by enormous amounts, that's not even in question. The debate is if it's enough.
 
giorno said:
What that says is you don't genuinely consider trans-women, women. Usain Bolt had massive genetic, physical advantages over every other person he competed against. Should we have excluded him from competing?

I get the desire to protect cis women athletes, there is no easy or simple solution here, but not at the cost of denying an entire group of people their identity
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I never got this argument; taking a small variance within one group, to the extrapolate that the bigger variances between two different and separate groups shouldn't be controlled for or addressed.

Seen it with Michael Phelps etc but it never makes any sense to me.
 
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Escobar said:
No we do not. It is cery clear, scientifically there is no debate
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If you mean because females have XX chromosomes then that's not been how we've defined through history. Some born female (according to their birth certificate etc) babies don't have XX chromosomes. Significant numbers of born female babies have ambiguous external genitalia. Some have a mismatch between external and internal organs.

You can draw lines in definitions, but it isn't a simple one and not even a historically consistent one.
 
jojojo said:
If you mean because females have XX chromosomes then that's not been how we've defined through history. Some born female (according to their birth certificate etc) babies don't have XX chromosomes. Significant numbers of born female babies have ambiguous external genitalia. Some have a mismatch between external and internal organs.

You can draw lines in definitions, but it isn't a simple one and not even a historically consistent one.
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Are you referring to DSD/Intersex?
 
stepic said:
honestly the way people go on about the incredibly massive advantages trans women have over poor wee cis women, you’d think there’d be at least one trans woman on the planet who massively dominates their sport like Bolt did in his.

I guess we’ll keep waiting.
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Thankfully common sense is filtering through and trans women are being widely banned across sport in the female category. So we won’t get a biological man dominating women’s sport.
 
The current discourse around the debate could move towards resolution if trans activists look ahead and be honest about the end game. Even if you solve the conundrum about the trans athletes, you will have to consider the non binary athletes. Movement is already underway and most likely would result in gender result awards in arts in near future, that is just best actor award (all gender identities) rather than separate one for male and female. Along same lines you will have a non binary US football player in future who may not want to be excluded by being forced to compete under label of US women soccer team.
Essentially the only way to be fair to all gender identities now is to have a single category for all sports. That is too radical a change hence why you won't see any one right now argue for it in mainstream but hard to see how that is not the end game here.
 
crappycraperson said:
The current discourse around the debate could move towards resolution if trans activists look ahead and be honest about the end game. Even if you solve the conundrum about the trans athletes, you will have to consider the non binary athletes. Movement is already underway and most likely would result in gender result awards in arts in near future, that is just best actor award (all gender identities) rather than separate one for male and female. Along same lines you will have a non binary US football player in future who may not want to be excluded by being forced to compete under label of US women soccer team.
Essentially the only way to be fair to all gender identities now is to have a single category for all sports. That is too radical a change hence why you won't see any one right now argue for it in mainstream but hard to see how that is not the end game here.
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I see your point but those with gender dysphoria wish to be seen as the sex that their innate gender most aligns with, so removing sex based categories would potentially signal to them that they're not a real man/woman, which is also unfair.
 
NotThatSoph said:
We are talking about very strong hormonal treatments here, and often surgery. The strength and power output absolutely do change, they fall by enormous amounts, that's not even in question. The debate is if it's enough.
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That means we're also talking about drawing lines between different transwomen - as gender transition mean different things for different individuals. If it's essentially a rights and inclusivity question then I'm not sure where you'd draw that line at all.

If it's essentially about sporting fairness and rules to protect that, we're looking at different lines in different sports. I doubt events like shooting for example need gender categories at all, but if they do then there's still no need for a birth sex based distinction.

Most physical sports though? You say the differences are close.The differences between elite athletes are close, that's why this isn't easy.

I doubt it's possible to put a number on it as so much depends on transition timing, physical nature of transition, training intensity during transition etc. Some transwomen lose a lot of their previous advantages, others lose less - I really don't see how you build that into a sporting fairness model.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
Why the condescending tone? Our capabilities should not even be compared to someone with a superior genetic makeup. It's ridiculous the way some try to invalidate a legitimate concern that has scientific data to back it up.
Calling them "poor cis woman" is very insulting when these women work their asses to compete in a specific category only to be faced with even more challenges in the form of an athlete who is far more superior.
Why then do you not see more transmen compete in the men's category if they measure up equally? Why is it that the number of transwomen who are competing in the women's category greater than transmen competing in the men's category if they're all of equal ability?
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The tone was to highlight the way some people seem to portray women in sports, giving them no chance against the genetic super power of trans women.

cis women routinely beat trans women. More regularly than not. They are not weak and fragile creatures. That’s my point.

honestly the way trans women are portrayed in the media and in this thread is quite something.
 
stepic said:
The tone was to highlight the way some people seem to portray women in sports, giving them no chance against the genetic super power of trans women.

cis women routinely beat trans women. More regularly than not. They are not weak and fragile creatures. That’s my point.

honestly the way trans women are portrayed in the media and in this thread is quite something.
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You’re a misogynist.
 
stepic said:
The tone was to highlight the way some people seem to portray women in sports, giving them no chance against the genetic super power of trans women.

cis women routinely beat trans women. More regularly than not. They are not weak and fragile creatures. That’s my point.

honestly the way trans women are portrayed in the media and in this thread is quite something.
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Isn't this because the transwomen are able to compete closer to cis women's pro level even as semi-pros?
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
They're been using any excuse for decades to ban anything not heteronormative and they see this as a vote winner in the middle ground unfortunately.
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Yep, unfortunately so. Hence topics such as this one (and others, like appealing to parents’ innate concern for their children and using this in other fear mongering ways eg safety of children in changing rooms) are purposely used as wedge issues.

And it works. Time and time again
 
stepic said:
The tone was to highlight the way some people seem to portray women in sports, giving them no chance against the genetic super power of trans women.

cis women routinely beat trans women. More regularly than not. They are not weak and fragile creatures. That’s my point.

honestly the way trans women are portrayed in the media and in this thread is quite something.
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Men telling women how women should think about being women doesn't sit quite right with me.
 
There is no way this issue is not going to result in anything but bans of transgender athletes in women sports.

Sports are ruined when some get an unfair advantage. This debate is not about transgender rights so much as it is about fair competition.
 
stepic said:
The tone was to highlight the way some people seem to portray women in sports, giving them no chance against the genetic super power of trans women.

cis women routinely beat trans women. More regularly than not. They are not weak and fragile creatures. That’s my point.

honestly the way trans women are portrayed in the media and in this thread is quite something.
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And what about how cis women are being portrayed by you? Calling them wee cis women seems fair to you? Are you favoring trans women over cis women for a particular reason?

In the world of sports even a small advantage can make a difference. We're talking seconds and mere inches that can determine a win.

It's just not right and like I mentioned before these wee cis women work their asses of and it's the decisions of mostly men(correct me if I'm wrong) that's creating a situation where they have to work even harder now to win in a category that's supposed to be dedicated to women with equal abilities.

If these women are found guilty of taking enhancement drugs to keep up then they'll get disqualified. The reason being they now have an advantage over the other athletes. It's that advantage that's an issue. It's not their identity. It's the advantage, no matter how small that will always create that doubt whenever a transwoman wins a competition.
It's not fair to them also if they'll always be doubted when they win. They want a clean win too. It's not fair to either party and that's why they should compete with athletes of equal ability in their own separate category where they can be celebrated instead of doubted.
 
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