Transgender Athletes

stepic said:
repeating once again, because I have no idea how this is your takeaway if you've read the last few pages in full: the original comment from Phil was that trans people choose to identify as trans - i.e. they are not born trans. if he wants to clarify that statement, then by all means, but he has yet to do so thus far.

it's an important point, because if you are born trans, then transitioning is massively, fundamentally important to that individual for their mental health and wellbeing. as I already said earlier, we should be creating a tolerant environment/society in which trans people can transition safely and easily, not creating even more obstacles to what they already face. What is being proposed is essentially discrimination against trans people because they were born with a misaligned gender identification, and then justifying it as ‘well you chose to transition’. that isn't the actions of a tolerant society.
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No one is saying they can't or shouldn't transition but when it comes to ELITE level sport those advances gained from being born male just can't be ignored. It isn't fair to the other party, cis women.
 
arnie_ni said:
No one is saying they can't or shouldn't transition but when it comes to ELITE level sport those advances gained from being born male just can't be ignored. It isn't fair to the other party, cis women.
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Actually, Gensect, provided as a source in this debate by the very person who said that people choose to identify as trans, do say that they shouldn't transition. No one in this post has specifically said that people shouldn't transition, and no one has, as far as I know, claimed that anyone did.
 
stepic said:
repeating once again, because I have no idea how this is your takeaway if you've read the last few pages in full: the original comment from Phil was that trans people choose to identify as trans - i.e. they are not born trans. if he wants to clarify that statement, then by all means, but he has yet to do so thus far.

it's an important point, because if you are born trans, then transitioning is massively, fundamentally important to that individual's mental health and wellbeing. as I already said earlier, we should be creating a tolerant environment/society in which trans people can transition safely and easily, not creating even more obstacles to what they already face. What is being proposed is essentially discrimination against trans people because they were born with a misaligned gender identification, and then justifying it as ‘well you chose to transition’. that isn't the actions of a tolerant society.
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I actually don’t disagree with any of that.

But in a discussion about transgender athletes it’s obviously relevant to talk about the point at which they “choose” to transition as this is the point at which they first compete against people with a different biological sex. That’s not the same thing as arguing that being transgender is a choice and it’s bad faith to spin this point the way it’s been spun in this thread. Never mind making accusations of bigotry.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
But in a discussion about transgender athletes it’s obviously relevant to talk about the point at which they “choose” to transition as this is the point at which they first compete against people with a different biological sex. That’s not the same thing as arguing that being transgender is a choice and it’s bad faith to spin this point the way it’s been spun in this thread. Never mind making accusations of bigotry.
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The guy specifically said being trans was a choice, and has affirmed this when pressed on it. He has it in his head that the act of transitioning is what makes someone trans, and not, you know, being born that way.

There's also this
PhilQ said:
Lia Thomas could have continued to compete with the other males. Instead she's decided she wants to compete with the females where she has an advantage and we expect the biological women to be ok with it or be called bigots.
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which is, even with the most charitable reading, a fecking shitty thing to say. A fantastically unkind assumption to make about a person and their motivations.

But yeah, bad faith.
 
Halftrack said:
which is, even with the most charitable reading, a fecking shitty thing to say. A fantastically unkind assumption to make about a person and their motivations.

But yeah, bad faith.
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But why is it wrong to state that competing against women was in her best interest? Izsac Henig also has the option to take the hormone treatment and compete against men if he so decided but for one reason or another they made a decision.
 
hobbers said:
If someone is born trans, goes through childhood feeling trans, but then goes through adolescence and puberty and, at the end of it, they no longer feel like that. Maybe they go on to be cis and gay or whatever.

Then were they really born trans?
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Then they had gender dysphoria, but weren't trans. Simples.
 
Halftrack said:
There's also this

Lia Thomas could have continued to compete with the other males. Instead she's decided she wants to compete with the females where she has an advantage and we expect the biological women to be ok with it or be called bigots.
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which is, even with the most charitable reading, a fecking shitty thing to say. A fantastically unkind assumption to make about a person and their motivations.

But yeah, bad faith.
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Which is very interesting. Accusations of bigotry is apparently the big bad wolf. It derails the thread, it's bad faith, etc. Making up accusations of bigotry, however, that's fine. They don't even take notice, just like they don't care about people linking to extremely anti-trans spaces like Gensect. Gensect is one of the main drivers of the obviously transphobic and pseudoscientific concept of rapid onset gender dysphoria, but silence. It's selective outrage.
 
Went fishing, came back, same folks still can’t figure out the hint to stop derailing the thread. Locked until folks can figure it out.
 
Right decision in my mind. Protect the fairness of the women's event, while also looking to create an open category in the future that trans athletics can compete in if they wish. Though whether that will just be an renamed men's division or a third divisions will remain to be seen.
 
Wibble said:
Transgender swimmers prohibited by FINA due to significant performance advantage.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...rred-from-female-competitions-after-fina-vote
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I like they're trying to move away from testosterone levels as it always seemed a bit an arbitrary and simplistic measure to reduce the differences between men and women in athletic performance. Each sport is different and that was causing more issues and disrupting the fairness in the female category.
 
Acheron said:
I like they're trying to move away from testosterone levels as it always seemed a bit an arbitrary and simplistic measure to reduce the differences between men and women in athletic performance. Each sport is different and that was causing more issues and disrupting the fairness in the female category.
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Not to mention forcing people to medically moderate their testosterone to compete is, imo, ethically dubious.
 
Carolina Red said:
In the article it talks about creating an open division that they can compete in.
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Will there be enough entrants? I feel bad for trans athletes but I would also feel bad for athletes who may have lost medals or whatever in a potentially unfair way. Maybe this is just the least shit solution?
 
If MTF athletes don't have an advantage over cis-female athletes just from the fact that they used to be biologically male presumably you'd see FTM athletes that have been given hormone therapy and legally become male competing at a high level of mens' sport too? Fact is pretty much every trans athlete worthy of note is either MTF and competed in womens' sports after transitioning, or FTM, and competed in womens' sports before transitioning. The only example of a FTM athlete competing with men that I can find is Schuyler Bailar, who was one of the best swimmers in the country in his age group when he was competing against girls, swimming alongside swimming legend Katie Ledecky, and is now an above average college level swimmer in the mens' category. That seems to be the bottom line. Even a potential Olympic gold medallist won't be better than middle of the pack after transitioning to male. Biology is just simply a hell of a drug.

It's a difficult issue because it's going to be unfair on someone no matter how it's handled, and there can't really be any shades of grey based on hormone levels or something like that. It's undeniable that, all other things equal, MTF athletes do have a significant advantage that no amount of hormone therapy will ever take away from them, and even the best cis-female athletes can't do anything legal to level the playing field in that respect. Banning trans athletes from competing in women's events is the least bad option of the two, simply because the other option unfairly affects a much larger group of people.
 
Wibble said:
Transgender swimmers prohibited by FINA due to significant performance advantage.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...rred-from-female-competitions-after-fina-vote
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A bit of sanity.

I can't for the life of me understand, why some people are so willing to throw away fairness in women's athletics in the name of inclusivity. I've said it before, but not being able to compete in high level competitive sports is such a small, small sacrifice to make for people who transition.
 
Reading the article I understand why FINA have come to their decision but the compassionate side of me feels its tough on trans athletes. There is unfortunately no simple fix that enables us to have a simple and quick solution to what is a very complex and nuanced problem.

This subject is fraught with difficulty, mainly because both sides most extreme views bleed into the central discourse, infecting it with hyperbole, insults and bad faith arguments.

On one side you have a side claiming literal genocide if 100% of their demands are not met and on the other a side claiming a grooming conspiracy and degeneration of morality if even 1% of demands are met.

It's a wedge issue (loathed to use that term) that both sides can use as a cudgel. Combine this with social media and it becomes a toxic wasteland. It doesn't help trans people and it doesn't help women. It just creates a divide.

In regards to the athlete question, which I have spent a lot of time thinking about, I think this is a decision made to protect the integrity of women's sports which is a good, but doesn't address the need to allow trans athletes to compete which is a bad.
 
Mike Smalling said:
A bit of sanity.

I can't for the life of me understand, why some people are so willing to throw away fairness in women's athletics in the name of inclusivity. I've said it before, but not being able to compete in high level competitive sports is such a small, small sacrifice to make for people who transition.
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I think, it most cases it comes from a place of compassion but I agree with you.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I think, it most cases it comes from a place of compassion but I agree with you.
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Yeah, compassion, inclusivity, fear of offending, wish to appear progressive, etc. It's a bit of everything. We have moved so much in the right direction on a lot of issues related to gender, race and LBGT+ issues over the last years, and 98% of it is for the better. But we are also reaching a limit, where we have to stop and think on a few topics. This is certainly one of them.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Reading the article I understand why FINA have come to their decision but the compassionate side of me feels its tough on trans athletes. There is unfortunately no simple fix that enables us to have a simple and quick solution to what is a very complex and nuanced problem.

This subject is fraught with difficulty, mainly because both sides most extreme views bleed into the central discourse, infecting it with hyperbole, insults and bad faith arguments.

On one side you have a side claiming literal genocide if 100% of their demands are not met and on the other a side claiming a grooming conspiracy and degeneration of morality if even 1% of demands are met.

It's a wedge issue (loathed to use that term) that both sides can use as a cudgel. Combine this with social media and it becomes a toxic wasteland. It doesn't help trans people and it doesn't help women. It just creates a divide.

In regards to the athlete question, which I have spent a lot of time thinking about, I think this is a decision made to protect the integrity of women's sports which is a good, but doesn't address the need to allow trans athletes to compete which is a bad.
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I think they are adding an open event for them. they aren't going to be prevented from competing
 
Stacks said:
I think they are adding an open event for them. they aren't going to be prevented from competing
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I have a feeling the argument against this might be that affirmation is an important part of gender identity and defacto competing in a non-female group might cause distress.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I have a feeling the argument against this might be that affirmation is an important part of gender identity and defacto competing in a non-female group might cause distress.
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This would also be the case for trans men having to compete in a non-male category which I am sure many would prefer it this way. I am sure trans people realise they are different so not sure why it would cause distress. Being able to compete in sport is the main thing rather than an outright ban.
 
Stacks said:
This would also be the case for trans men having to compete in a non-male category which I am sure many would prefer it this way. I am sure trans people realise they are different so not sure why it would cause distress. Being able to compete in sport is the main thing rather than an outright ban.
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Well I always got the impression from the most ardent commentators on this subject that dysphoria was so intense that any reference to it was dangerous to the MH of that person, hence why affirmation in kids and teenagers is the preferred therapy focus.
 
I haven't read the science behind the decision but assuming it's airtight and the report gets released for everyone to have a look at then it's by no means an inherently bigoted move - it's a difficult and fraught issue and all anyone can do is try to be as fair as possible in the knowledge that no ruling can be perfectly fair for all.

Regardless, it seems very harsh on the current generation of trans people who have done absolutely nothing wrong but who now find themselves the wrong side of this ruling. Most of the trans people I know wanted to transition a lot earlier than they did, but that option wasn't available to them for a variety of reasons, whether it was a lack of knowledge or support from parents, gatekeeping by bigoted medical professionals perpetuity, a lack of access to support. It feels as though trans athletes are being doubly punished for the failings of others, once because they weren't able to get the medical support they needed earlier, and again because the failure to give them that support when they needed it may now cost them careers they've worked very hard for.

I think, in here at least, that the majority of those who are supportive of this ruling bear no ill-will towards trans women. I'd ask those people to lend their support to campaigns working to ensure young people questioning their gender get the support they need, including access to puberty blockers where appropriate. Because ultimately, unless that support is there, there's little difference between a tough but science-led decision which unfortunately excludes this generation of trans women athletes and a de-facto ban on trans women competing in top-level sport in perpetuity on purely ideological grounds.
 
It's tricky because one of the main reasons I love sports, is because it doesn't discriminate. If you're good enough, you will be respected by your peers whether you're black/white/fat/thin it doesn't matter, as long as we all play by the same rules.

The way many MTF athletes dominate in the women's division actually hurt the integrity of the sport and the athletes who dedicate their lives for that sport. They cannot compete against someone who transitioned from male to female. Everybody loses. The winner still loses because people will question their biological advantage and the runners up will be highly discouraged from ever trying to compete again.

That's where life gets unfair and you have to draw a line imo.
 
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jeff_goldblum said:
I haven't read the science behind the decision but assuming it's airtight and the report gets released for everyone to have a look at then it's by no means an inherently bigoted move - it's a difficult and fraught issue and all anyone can do is try to be as fair as possible in the knowledge that no ruling can be perfectly fair for all.

Regardless, it seems very harsh on the current generation of trans people who have done absolutely nothing wrong but who now find themselves the wrong side of this ruling. Most of the trans people I know wanted to transition a lot earlier than they did, but that option wasn't available to them for a variety of reasons, whether it was a lack of knowledge or support from parents, gatekeeping by bigoted medical professionals perpetuity, a lack of access to support. It feels as though trans athletes are being doubly punished for the failings of others, once because they weren't able to get the medical support they needed earlier, and again because the failure to give them that support when they needed it may now cost them careers they've worked very hard for.

I think, in here at least, that the majority of those who are supportive of this ruling bear no ill-will towards trans women. I'd ask those people to lend their support to campaigns working to ensure young people questioning their gender get the support they need, including access to puberty blockers where appropriate. Because ultimately, unless that support is there, there's little difference between a tough but science-led decision which unfortunately excludes this generation of trans women athletes and a de-facto ban on trans women competing in top-level sport in perpetuity on purely ideological grounds.
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Agree, support is so important
 
This is obviously a sensitive topic. But I really think we must disassociate the notion that banning transgender people from participating in professional sports in their non-biological gender is not a direct attack on transgender people. It’s difficult because you can say you’re discriminating against them because of it, and curtailing their rights. But I don’t think this decision is actually about them. It’s actually more about those who aren’t transgender. Biologically, transgender have an advantage / disadvantage inherently and as such does not allow for fair participation. Just as when we separate mens and womens competition except in designated mixed sports, it’s not about creating an inferior view of women. It’s about sporting fairness.

There are grey areas. A biological man converting to a woman creates more imbalance than an athlete who biologically is naturally genetically mixed (not the r of it way to describe it but you know what I mean).

I am fully supportive of transgender athletes competing under their “new” gender, if there is a fair and balanced way for that to happen. Would welcome all such viable suggestions. But in the absence of that, I really do not see an alternative to a ban?
 
Stacks said:
This would also be the case for trans men having to compete in a non-male category which I am sure many would prefer it this way. I am sure trans people realise they are different so not sure why it would cause distress. Being able to compete in sport is the main thing rather than an outright ban.
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I'd assume most people are aware that they're different but the problem also originates from the reluctance to admit they're different. It already has been mentioned it could be due to compassion, being afraid of being labeled as transphobic, or something like that. So I think that has been one of the problems, pretend they're equal in every sense (specially biologically) and transmit that to sports.

Having the sports divided in male and female categories is discriminating but it's that way because of the glaring differences in athletic performance. It can be seen as unfair but no one gets to choose their sex, appearance, race, country they're born, etc. I mean I don't know how else to explain it but it is the way it is. There are also categories for handicapped people in order for them to have their space to compete.

So what I'm trying to say is that everyone is different and people must accept their difference or cope with them the best they can. As of now technology and medicine are not advanced enough to the point were able to biologically turn a man into a woman. That's not happening anytime soon and despite the hormone therapy I don't think trans women should be allowed to compete with women in most sports at the highest level.
 
Wibble said:
Transgender swimmers prohibited by FINA due to significant performance advantage.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...rred-from-female-competitions-after-fina-vote
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Nice to see some common sense in sport being used, i'd personally get rid of the transition before 12, but how many people fit in that category realistically must be minimal.

all for a separate category for trans people, you can't just turn a blind eye to significant biological advantages more so in some sports then others.
 


Article with some detail. Don't agree with all of it but an overview in some respects, using McKinnon's photo is harsh. Also the account @fondofbeetles goes into deep detail on athletic difference.
 
I've played cricket at a decent level when I was younger but have been off the scene for a few years. 2 of my younger brothers play for a local team and due to change in job I had a Saturday free so went to watch them.

This is local league cricket and I was watching the seconds play. I had heard that teams were now "mixed". Although it's not truly mixed as in 50/50 more like teams have one or two female players.

The opposition had two female players and when I went to the ground I saw them and I was quite happy to see it. Once the game started though I felt a bit of sympathy for the girls and also for the lads. It was just uncomfortable. These girls would be decent cricketers in a women's team but were pretty much made to look inferior players and I noticed the fast bowlers kind of slowed down for them too.

The whole scene looked uncomfortable from the banter to the celebrations to the actual game.

These girls pay like everyone else (subs) and huge kudos to them. I just felt that a women's only team would enhance their experience. Maybe see more participating?

Not transgender and I don't want to derail the thread, just feel that talking about something and then seeing it played out live gives you a different feeling/perspective. Just didn't feel fair or equal. To me anyway.
 
Kanu said:
It's tricky because one of the main reasons I love sports, is because it doesn't discriminate. If you're good enough, you will be respected by your peers whether you're black/white/fat/thin it doesn't matter, as long as we all play by the same rules.
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That's just historically not true. Sport is incredibly discriminatory whether it be social class or race.

The way many MTF athletes dominate in the women's division actually hurt the integrity of the sport and the athletes who dedicate their lives for that sport. They cannot compete against someone who transitioned from male to female. Everybody loses. The winner still loses because people will question their biological advantage and the runners up will be highly discouraged from ever trying to compete again.

That's where life gets unfair and you have to draw a line imo.
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This is also wrong, MTF trans athletes often lose to CIS athletes and aren't winning championships en masse. There seems to be little evidence that MTF trans athletes are having any significant effect on competition outside of niche examples. There was one big story where a female runner complained about losing to an MTF athlete and launched a lawsuit, only for her to then go on to beat that trans athlete on merit anyway.
 
Roane said:
I've played cricket at a decent level when I was younger but have been off the scene for a few years. 2 of my younger brothers play for a local team and due to change in job I had a Saturday free so went to watch them.

This is local league cricket and I was watching the seconds play. I had heard that teams were now "mixed". Although it's not truly mixed as in 50/50 more like teams have one or two female players.

The opposition had two female players and when I went to the ground I saw them and I was quite happy to see it. Once the game started though I felt a bit of sympathy for the girls and also for the lads. It was just uncomfortable. These girls would be decent cricketers in a women's team but were pretty much made to look inferior players and I noticed the fast bowlers kind of slowed down for them too.

The whole scene looked uncomfortable from the banter to the celebrations to the actual game.

These girls pay like everyone else (subs) and huge kudos to them. I just felt that a women's only team would enhance their experience. Maybe see more participating?

Not transgender and I don't want to derail the thread, just feel that talking about something and then seeing it played out live gives you a different feeling/perspective. Just didn't feel fair or equal. To me anyway.
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You didn't see this play out though, not even close. This assumes that if a male transitions to a female she then carries on at the same level of performance and that just isn't true. The gulf you witnessed between those two genders would not have been present if it were females plus male to female trans athletes, but the discussion so often happens as if this would be the case.
 
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