Transgender Athletes

[RedC]

No, this isn't true. The accusation of bigotry came after. You know this.

I don't 'know this', I am taking the poster's opinion at face value, maybe I missed a sentence in one of his posts as it turned into a bit of an essay fest. I'm going to withdraw from the discussion anyway as it will go nowhere productive, as usual.

 

[Carolina Red]

I know what transitioning is. I’m not even sure you’re keeping up with the conversation anymore.

Then if you know what it is, what is your problem?

Saying “yes” or “no” to a medical treatment / procedure is by definition a choice. “Transition” is a verb… an action… one must choose to initiate an action.

 

[NotThatSoph]

I don't 'know this', I am taking the poster's opinion at face value, maybe I missed a sentence in one of his posts as it turned into a bit of an essay fest. I'm going to withdraw from the discussion anyway as it will go nowhere productive, as usual.

You just replied to my post where I directly quoted the guy talking about how trans people "choose to identify".

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I'd hope that most people would consider that non-elite/youth sport should be about inclusion and socialisation.

100%. It's only a discussion point when we get to elite competition.

 

[RedC]

You just replied to my post where I directly quoted the guy talking about how trans people "choose to identify".

Yes, I was explaining the potential error in my initial statement which you questioned in that post?

 

[Carolina Red]

Yes, and what do you think that changes?

The fact that he’s clearly talking about the verb “transition” and not the adjective “transgender”.

 

[Wibble]

Are people born trans or do they choose to be trans?

I strongly suspect people are largely born mentally trans but physical transition including hormone therapy is a choice, albeit a choice often made as a personal imperative as not to do so would be mentally harming.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Yes, I was explaining the potential error in my initial statement which you questioned in that post?

Right. And I'm letting you know that it was an error, not a potential error.

The fact that he’s clearly talking about the verb “transition” and not the adjective “transgender”.

Who's choosing to identify as what, then? People either transition or they don't, so you cannot choose to identify as someone who has transitioned.

 

[Acheron]

I think you're just arguing about semantics at this point but both points have come across and haven't seen anyone saying anything that could be labelled as bigoted.

If we legislate that you have to compete as your biological birth sex or the sex you were when you went though puberty doesn't that mean that trans men who have had hormone treatment would be forced to compete in the women's comp? Or would they effectively also be banned as they would probably contravene doping regulations?

If they take hormones I don't think they should be allowed to compete with women so yeah the rules would need to different depending if we're talking about a transgender man or woman.

You have both a transgender man and transgender woman competing as females and one could argue their choosing specifically to compete at such because it's at their best interest. Neither would get the same results when competing against men but this enters in conflict with the integrity of the sport in the female category so at the end of the day the goal should be to protect women's sports overall.

 

[Carolina Red]

Who's choosing to identify as what, then? People either transition or they don't, so you cannot choose to identify as someone who has transitioned.

Read all of his posts in the discussion the last few pages and you’d know. He explained himself at length. But that’s not convenient for you. You’d rather try and take a sentence out of context so your tactic of throwing up the bigot card makes sense.

Actually, it is patently clear what he’s saying in that post alone… if you’re not jumping at the bit to call someone a bigot.

Competing with males may or may not affect a trans womans dysphoria. Not all trans people are dysphoric. But it is the fairest way for them to compete. The integrity of the sport should not be compromised to accommodate what was ultimately a choice made by that individual to transition.

More power to them for making that choice if it makes them more comfortable in themselves but we cannot and should not expect them to be given an unfair advantage due to how they choose to identify.

Edit: and the one immediately following it…

In what way is transitioning not a choice? Keep in mind theres dysphoric people who don't transition. And there's people who transition that are not dysphoric. Conflating that decision with sexual orientation is dishonest.

 

[Moby]

Literally all you do in this thread(for years at this point) is call people trying to make reasoned arguments bigots

Yep.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Read all of his posts in the discussion the last few pages and you’d know. He explained himself at length. But that’s not convenient for you. You’d rather try and take a sentence out of context so your tactic of throwing up the bigot card makes sense.

No, he explained himself at length about transitioning being a choice. Saying that being gay is a choice and that engaging in gay sexual acts is a choice, and then going on to write pages about why engaging in gay sex is a choice, does not explain why being gay is a choice. Same applies here. He blatantly said both things.

I have not called anyone a bigot. I have also not obected to anyone saying that transitioning is a choice. You're saying that, I have not said that you're a bigot or that you're saying being trans is a choice. Wibble has said that transitioning is a choice, as has Conor. I have not called either of them bigots, I have not said that they believe being trans is a choice. If what I took issue with was saying that transitioning is a choice, then I would take issue with all of you. I don't, you're obviously wrong.

 

[Stack]

But do you get that at some point, the child and/or the parents made the decision to change name, start puberty blockers etc? It may have seemed inevitable based on the childs dysphoria but at some point the decision was made that transition was best for the child. Other parents and children in the same situation may make a difference choice.

I'm not sure how this has ended up with me being painted as someone who is against trans people or their transition as that is simply not the case. My belief that the act of transition is a choice is based on the fact that some people choose to transition and some don't. Some choose to transition and change back. Some change where dysphoria is not the driver. And if a conscious decision is being made on whether or not to transition i don't see why such an autonomous action is being equated with the immutable fact of homosexuality. Not to mention as someone said above the majority of kids will end up growing out of their dysphoria if they pass through puberty without blockers etc. This isn't something that happens with homosexuality so again another weird comparison.

I don't know why I'm bothering to reply as people seem to have decided I'm some evil bigot but there it is.

Sorry I wasnt suggesting you are evil or bigotted, I havent made any assertion along those lines, I was just responding to the choice thing. Im not sure if your interpretation of the use of the word choice would work in this situation. I may be getting this wrong but what your saying sounds similar to Gay people having a choice and that choice being whether or not to come out. The fact they choose to come out seems sinilar to me that trans people choose to head down the path of operations etc.

 

[stepic]

My belief that the act of transition is a choice is based on the fact that some people choose to transition and some don't. Some choose to transition and change back. Some change where dysphoria is not the driver. And if a conscious decision is being made on whether or not to transition i don't see why such an autonomous action is being equated with the immutable fact of homosexuality.

As @NotThatSoph has pointed out already, you originally said that ‘we cannot and should not expect them to be given an unfair advantage due to how they choose to identify’. I said it wasn’t a choice (because trans people are born trans). You then quickly pivoted to saying transitioning is a choice, to which I and others said that there are a host of reasons why a trans person may decide not to transition (abuse, discrimination?).

but firstly that doesn’t mean they wouldn't if we lived in a more tolerant society and secondly, it’s irrelevant to the original point about identification.

If you're born trans, you don’t choose your gender identification, that’s what we are talking about, not the incredibly literal and basic point you guys now seem to be making about ‘choosing’ to transition because one has to ‘choose’ to undertake a medical operation, I mean come on.

 

[stepic]

I strongly suspect people are largely born mentally trans but physical transition including hormone therapy is a choice, albeit a choice often made as a personal imperative as not to do so would be mentally harming.

Agreed

And the more we can create a tolerant environment in which trans people can transition safely and easily, the better. Discriminating against trans people because they were born with a misaligned gender identification, and then justifying it as ‘well you chose to transition’ is the absolute antithesis of that.

 

[Carolina Red]

No, he explained himself at length about transitioning being a choice. Saying that being gay is a choice and that engaging in gay sexual acts is a choice, and then going on to write pages about why engaging in gay sex is a choice, does not explain why being gay is a choice. Same applies here. He blatantly said both things.

I have not called anyone a bigot. I have also not obected to anyone saying that transitioning is a choice. You're saying that, I have not said that you're a bigot or that you're saying being trans is a choice. Wibble has said that transitioning is a choice, as has Conor. I have not called either of them bigots, I have not said that they believe being trans is a choice. If what I took issue with was saying that transitioning is a choice, then I would take issue with all of you. I don't, you're obviously wrong.

I’d say this post fully explains the point he was making.

None of what you're saying makes sense unless you equate being dysphoric as being trans. If someone who is dysphoric does not transition, they are not trans. If someone told you they were dysphoric but not trans, would you just tell them you know better?

If you believe the posters on Reddit are lying or transphobes, that's fine. It's the internet, some probably are. This might be more your speed.
It's a webinar for detrans awareness day. Plenty of real life de-trans people talking about their experiences.

And your last paragraph is just homophobic. Please don't compare someone's choice to transition to the immutable fact of being gay.

As to the second part, if you opened up the discussion with “okay let’s…” with pure intentions, then my apologies.

 

[NotThatSoph]

I’d say this post fully explains the point he was making.

As to the second part, if you opened up the discussion with “okay let’s…” with pure intentions, then my apologies.

As a direct reply to the not at all condescending "let’s all take a deep breath and find a dictionary", come on. You're not being serious. And yes, I did read that post where he linked to Genspect (!!, I have to assume that you, and hopefully Phil, isn't familiar). This doesn't bring up anything that isn't covered by your original objection, and I've already said that I disagree and why. When talking about gender dysphoria, or when talking about transitioning, "choosing to identify" makes no sense. The only context where this could imply is when talking about gender identity. We've been over this. I've said it, you've said the opposite. We're wasting time, as always.

 

[Carolina Red]

As a direct reply to the not at all condescending "let’s all take a deep breath and find a dictionary", come on. You're not being serious. And yes, I did read that post where he linked to Genspect (!!, I have to assume that you, and hopefully Phil, isn't familiar). This doesn't bring up anything that isn't covered by your original objection, and I've already said that I disagree and why. When talking about gender dysphoria, or when talking about transitioning, "choosing to identify" makes no sense. The only context where this could imply is when talking about gender identity. We've been over this. I've said it, you've said the opposite. We're wasting time, as always.

Look… you led this off with your post here, that stepic responded to with the bigot claim. So yeah, I questioned your motives.

I can't believe we're doing the "being trans is a choice" thing. I'm lying, but feck.

As far as the rest of it, yes, I do indeed just think you’re reading what you want into it. Same as I said earlier. Either way, me saying accusations of bigotry need to stop stands. Nobody’s been a bigot here, and the last page and a half have absolutely been a massive waste of time and bandwidth because that accusation was made.

 

[Zarlak]

The impact of backwards could be dependant on your baseline. If you are likely to have started off much taller and with more, larger and stronger muscle than your cis-gender counterparts that you now compete against, then losing 14% of your grip strength might be a meaningless statistic relative to your competition.

Other potentially important physical metrics don't change significantly like height or foot size, which in the swimming example can be important to performance.

Muscle memory is another consideration that may not be negatively impacted by transitioning.

Some of the studies also measured a wide range of trans people including non-athletic individuals making the results less applicable to athletics.

So it's maybe not quite as cut and dried when it comes to top performing athletes.

I agree with you to an extent, nobody can disagree there's no advantage but my counter is that if you don't care about that advantage existing naturally between CIS competitors then it's not the presence of the advantage itself that people have an issue with.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I agree with you to an extent, nobody can disagree there's no advantage but my counter is that if you don't care about that advantage existing naturally between CIS competitors then it's not the presence of the advantage itself that people have an issue with.

It's clear that the majority of men develop to be bigger, stronger, faster etc than women. So to develop as a man and transition likely confers an unusual advantage if you are an athlete. All sports have rules that penalize advantages advantages like being offside, face-masking, and ball scuffing and disqualify other advantages like those gained from pseudo-ephedrine, HGH, diuretics, and even testosterone.

My question is does growing to adulthood as a man and then transitioning give a similarly unfair advantage over cis-women that should disqualify a person from competing in the upper levels of athletics?

 

[Acheron]

My question is does growing to adulthood as a man and then transitioning give a similarly unfair advantage over cis-women that should disqualify a person from competing in the upper levels of athletics?

In short, yes it doesand the problem is that that type of advantage is not seen as something natural. In general if a group of men and women dedicate their lives to a certain sport, let's say swimming or athleticism, and if they put the same amount of effort and time on average the men will perform significantly better because of the sex they were born into.

Is seen as something unfair as the gap isn't because the men have more talent, train harder, or anything along the lines of merit but because of their inherent physical qualities. So yes, transitioning gives and unfair advantage as a woman can't physically develop the same way a man does.

 

[Halftrack]

It’s literally a medical decision that you have to consult with medical professionals about. Goddamn

Transitioning doesn't equal medical intervention.

If someone is suffering from gender dysphoria and is encourage to experiment with how they express their gender and the pronouns they want to be addressed by, and find that it really helps to alleviate their distress, how much of a choice is it really?

The fact that he’s clearly talking about the verb “transition” and not the adjective “transgender”.

He's repeatedly stated that people aren't born trans, and seems to think choosing to transition is what makes them so, thus they're choosing to be trans. That contravenes professional consensus.

 

[Bobcat]

If we legislate that you have to compete as your biological birth sex or the sex you were when you went though puberty doesn't that mean that trans men who have had hormone treatment would be forced to compete in the women's comp? Or would they effectively also be banned as they would probably contravene doping regulations?

Its does, so really there is no "perfect" soloution here imo

The case of Lia Thomas...i get that people are having issues with that, i do as well. She transitioned in 2019, after pubety, which means she got a massive does of testosterone and upper body strength that her competitors did not. Thats a pretty huge advantage in swimming

If trans women transitioned and did hormone treatment before puberty? Not a problem in my view, but in cases like these its going to be problematic.

I think trans people deserve equal treatment and respect as everyone else, but in thise case trans rights collide with womens rights and the latter far outnumber the former so that has to be taken into consideration.

 

[stepic]

Look… you led this off with your post here, that stepic responded to with the bigot claim. So yeah, I questioned your motives.

As far as the rest of it, yes, I do indeed just think you’re reading what you want into it. Same as I said earlier. Either way, me saying accusations of bigotry need to stop stands. Nobody’s been a bigot here, and the last page and a half have absolutely been a massive waste of time and bandwidth because that accusation was made.

i didn't even call anyone a bigot, i said his arguments are the same bigoted ones used against gay people 30 years ago. 'attack the post, not the poster', right?

the notion that gay people aren't born gay is a long outdated view. yet here we are again, same argument, different hat. bringing men with fetishes or people suffering from childhood abuse into the conversation about trans people is also completely unnecessary, but that same line of argument has also been used against gay people in the past too.

 

[arnie_ni]

Transitioning doesn't equal medical intervention.

If someone is suffering from gender dysphoria and is encourage to experiment with how they express their gender and the pronouns they want to be addressed by, and find that it really helps to alleviate their distress, how much of a choice is it really?

He's repeatedly stated that people aren't born trans, and seems to think choosing to transition is what makes them so, thus they're choosing to be trans. That contravenes professional consensus.

That's not what he's saying though. It terms of sport he's saying these men that make the medical decision to transition (hormone blockers etc) have made a decision. That is what this whole topic is about.

Hes obviously not talking about men thay haven't made the decision to medically transition and just identify as a women because they would never meet the criteria to compete in women's sport, with tout the medical treatments.

Ergo if no men make the decision to medically transition, this conversation doesn't need to be had.

It was turned into something its not, maybe because he left out the word "medically" but anyone that wasn't out hunting for a bigot knew what he meant.

 

[RedC]

Right. And I'm letting you know that it was an error, not a potential error.

Not really, people can misspeak on the internet just as much as in real life when discussing something. I believe he has expanded on his point enough for my point to still stand. I'm out anyway, enjoy your continued streak of never, ever, ever 'losing' on the internet.

 

[Halftrack]

That's not what he's saying though. It terms of sport he's saying these men that make the medical decision to transition (hormone blockers etc) have made a decision. That is what this whole topic is about.

Hes obviously not talking about men thay haven't made the decision to medically transition and just identify as a women because they would never meet the criteria to compete in women's sport, with tout the medical treatments.

Ergo if no men make the decision to medically transition, this conversation doesn't need to be had.

It was turned into something its not, maybe because he left out the word "medically" but anyone that wasn't out hunting for a bigot knew what he meant.

Phil has been consistently arguing that no one is born trans and that it's the act of transitioning that makes one such, while also citing edge cases of people with fetishes and some who've suffered trauma who transitioned, in what I can only assume is an attempt to back his claim. Thus he seems to think people choose to be trans. This is the assertion I've challenged him on.

 

[arnie_ni]

Phil has been consistently arguing that no one is born trans and that it's the act of transitioning that makes one such, while also citing edge cases of people with fetishes and some who've suffered trauma who transitioned, in what I can only assume is an attempt to back his claim. Thus he seems to think people choose to be trans. This is the assertion I've challenged him on.

Maybe he has and I'm the one who misinterpreted what he's said. I thought when he spoke about decision he meant the actual decision to transition medically. I'll bow out again incase i have misinterpreted

 

[Carolina Red]

Transitioning doesn't equal medical intervention.

If someone is suffering from gender dysphoria and is encourage to experiment with how they express their gender and the pronouns they want to be addressed by, and find that it really helps to alleviate their distress, how much of a choice is it really?

He's repeatedly stated that people aren't born trans, and seems to think choosing to transition is what makes them so, thus they're choosing to be trans. That contravenes professional consensus.

He literally covered what you’re saying here in a post to you. A post I’ve quoted above. Quite frankly, I’m done talking about it, because it is clear what has and hasn’t happened.
Next time, maybe someone should use the report function for what they think is bigotry instead of derailing a thread again.

i didn't even call anyone a bigot, i said his arguments are the same bigoted ones used against gay people 30 years ago. 'attack the post, not the poster', right?

You were involved in a very similar derailing of this thread last summer. You’ve got a pattern of this, as has been pointed out.

And yes, this is calling someone a bigot.

Go back 30 years and pretty much all of PhilQ’s points were used exactly the same against gay people. Bigotry under a new hat.

 

[Ajr]

Phil has been consistently arguing that no one is born trans and that it's the act of transitioning that makes one such, while also citing edge cases of people with fetishes and some who've suffered trauma who transitioned, in what I can only assume is an attempt to back his claim. Thus he seems to think people choose to be trans. This is the assertion I've challenged him on.

It's just deliberate misunderstanding to support arguments and ignore anything other than it.

 

[Halftrack]

He literally covered what you’re saying here in a post to you. A post I’ve quoted above. Quite frankly, I’m done talking about it, because it is clear what has and hasn’t happened.
Next time, maybe someone should use the report function for what they think is bigotry instead of derailing a thread again.

And as I've said, he's chatting absolute shit because that's not how it works. The act of transitioning isn' what makes you trans, being trans leads to transitioning.

And miss me with bigotry shit, I haven't accused him of anything, despite him repeating and referring to some very questionable shit.

He did accuse me of homophobia though, so I suggest you have a go at him for that if you're going to throw a strop.

 

[Carolina Red]

And as I've said, he's chatting absolute shit because that's not how it works. The act of transitioning isn' what makes you trans, being trans leads to transitioning.

And miss me with bigotry shit, I haven't accused him of anything, despite him repeating and referring to some very questionable shit.

He did accuse me of homophobia though, so I suggest you have a go at him for that if you're going to throw a strop.

I was missing you with the bigotry shit. Because I was clearly talking to the other person I quoted in the post.

Can we get the thread back on the rails now?

 

[Halftrack]

I was missing you with the bigotry shit. Because I was clearly talking to the other person I quoted in the post.

Can we get the thread back on the rails now?

I think the discussion around whether someone "chooses" to be trans or are born that way is an important part of the debate, especially since the claim that being trans is a choice was used as a reason for why they shouldn't be allowed to compete against women.

 

[stepic]

And yes, this is calling someone a bigot.

no, it isn't. i mean i literally said Phil's points resemble points made against gay people in the past. which is a factual statement. i'm not sure why you can't see that distinction (well, I do, but anyway).

 

[stepic]

I think the discussion around whether someone "chooses" to be trans or are born that way is an important part of the debate, especially since the claim that being trans is a choice was used as a reason for why they shouldn't be allowed to compete against women.

it's rather telling that, when pressed, no one actually addresses this point.

 

[balaks]

It's the physical characteristics that I have an issue with - in simple biological terms the average transgender woman will be stronger and more physically able than the average woman (and in the same way the average trans man will not be as strong or physically able as the average man - you can build muscle but I don't think you can change bone density, etc.), that's a simple fact. Therefore to me it does feel that this is an unfair advantage trans women will have over women and in the fairness of sport I don't feel comfortable with it - in some sports this won't be evident of course and there is no issue but in some, particularly those based around speed and strength there is a clear biological advantage for a trans women.

How to overcome this issue I don't know - perhaps in those types of sports trans women and men could compete against other trans women and men to make it a fair playing field.

 

[arnie_ni]

I think the discussion around whether someone "chooses" to be trans or are born that way is an important part of the debate, especially since the claim that being trans is a choice was used as a reason for why they shouldn't be allowed to compete against women.

It's got nothing to do with the debate. It's only relevant to those that go through the medical transition and are elite level sports people.

Whether they were born trans or not has no bearing on any of this in my mind.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Not really, people can misspeak on the internet just as much as in real life when discussing something. I believe he has expanded on his point enough for my point to still stand. I'm out anyway, enjoy your continued streak of never, ever, ever 'losing' on the internet.

Where's this coming from? If by "losing on the internet" means being wrong, then I've lost plenty of times and have no qualms about saying so. Such a weird thing to make up about someone.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

So much bad faith debate in this thread (from the usual suspects). The decision to transition is obviously a choice. The clue is in the word “decision”. This is not the same thing as arguing that gender dysphoria (or, indeed, sexuality) is a choice. Calling someone a bigot for making this point is pathetic tbh. Albeit predictable.

 

[stepic]

So much bad faith debate in this thread (from the usual suspects). The decision to transition is obviously a choice. The clue is in the word “decision”. This is not the same thing as arguing that gender dysphoria (or, indeed, sexuality) is a choice. Calling someone a bigot for making this point is pathetic tbh. Albeit predictable.

repeating once again, because I have no idea how this is your takeaway if you've read the last few pages in full: the original comment from Phil was that trans people choose to identify as trans - i.e. they are not born trans. if he wants to clarify that statement, then by all means, but he has yet to do so thus far.

it's an important point, because if you are born trans, then transitioning is massively, fundamentally important to that individual's mental health and wellbeing. as I already said earlier, we should be creating a tolerant environment/society in which trans people can transition safely and easily, not creating even more obstacles to what they already face. What is being proposed is essentially discrimination against trans people because they were born with a misaligned gender identification, and then justifying it as ‘well you chose to transition’. that isn't the actions of a tolerant society.