Transgender Athletes

[JohnZSmith27]

there is a whole host of reasons why someone who is trans may choose not to transition. the abuse, discrimination, and prejudice they receive by doing so being a large part of it I imagine. it's very much the equivalent of being a closeted gay person from say 30 years ago, and even still today.

people are born trans. nobody chooses it.

How is someone who transitions due to severe body dysmorphia and depression from early childhood sexual trauma with no gender dysphoria "born trans"?

How is someone who through childhood circumstances developed a fetish for women's clothes which carries on into later life at which point they decide to transition full time. Doing so because, by their own admission, it turns them on (again no dysphoria) "born trans"?

Both are two real life examples I've encountered.

With regards to the dysphoric, as I've said each individual makes their own choice how to deal with it. If they transition, they are trans. If they don't, they're not. The same way we should not tell trans people how they are allowed to identify, putting a trans label on someone who does not identify as such is not cool and you should refrain from doing so.

 

[Halftrack]

It's very obviously not the same thing.

In what way is transitioning not a choice? Keep in mind theres dysphoric people who don't transition. And there's people who transition that are not dysphoric. Conflating that decision with sexual orientation is dishonest.

Being trans isn't a choice, the treatment for gender dysphoria could arguably be seen as one. Coming out as trans/transitioning can lead to discrimination, social rejection and ostracization the prospect of which will leave some unwilling to do it.

Why assume bigotry is the only reason a person would choose not to transition? I've met people who treat their dysphoria in ways other than transition who might be very offended by the suggestion they are not being who they really are if they don't transition.

And what about people who are not dysphoric but still transition? They don't feel they were "born in the wrong body" as you put it. What about those who transition and transition and then transition back? They're all making a decision to do so. I have no doubt it's an extremely difficult path to take and anyone who gets relief from their dysphoria by transitioning has my utmost admiration. They should be free from any abuse for trying to live a life on the outside that best reflects how they feel on the inside. But it is very clearly a choice. Nobody makes a choice to be straight/gay/bi so equating being trans as the same as sexual orientation is incorrect.

Gender dysphoria can resolve itself, but it's rare for it to do so if it persists through puberty. According to studies (though they have been criticised, and a lot of the criticism is fair) up to 80% of children diagnosed with GD will desist, and those that do often turn out to be cis and bi/gay. We don't know why, but maybe there's a chance being gay/bi can manifest that way in children. Studies have also shown that there's a pattern among children who desist; while those who persist tend to feel like they were born in the wrong body, those that desist generally tend to cite a desire to fulfill the opposite gender role as a primary motivator.

If someone is actually trans and suffer from gender dysphoria, and make the choice not to transition, but rather seek other alternatives, that's their right, but I'd think it's likely they're doing it out of fear of the ramifications, internalised transphobia or because gender affirming treatments/surgery is prohibitively expensive.

As for the bolded; there are trans folks who don't suffer from dysphoria, but they're still just as trans as those who do.

About those who transition and then transition back; The vast majority (80%+) of those who de-transition cite social rejection, discrimination, ostracization, or prohibitive costs of treatment as the reason for why they chose to do so.

I saw that man sized trans athlete stood next to those female swimmers and thought, surely they must think whats the point? Trans athletes need their own category. it's not fair on women.

She's only 5'7", though obviously somewhat broader over the shoulder/chest area.

 

[JohnZSmith27]

Being trans isn't a choice, the treatment for gender dysphoria could arguably be seen as one. Coming out as trans/transitioning can lead to discrimination, social rejection and ostracization the prospect of which will leave some unwilling to do it.

Gender dysphoria can resolve itself, but it's rare for it to do so if it persists through puberty. According to studies (though they have been criticised, and a lot of the criticism is fair) up to 80% of children diagnosed with GD will desist, and those that do often turn out to be cis and bi/gay. We don't know why, but maybe there's a chance being gay/bi can manifest that way in children. Studies have also shown that there's a pattern among children who desist; while those who persist tend to feel like they were born in the wrong body, those that desist generally tend to cite a desire to fulfill the opposite gender role as a primary motivator.

If someone is actually trans and suffer from gender dysphoria, and make the choice not to transition, but rather seek other alternatives, that's their right, but I'd think it's likely they're doing it out of fear of the ramifications, internalised transphobia or because gender affirming treatments/surgery is prohibitively expensive.

As for the bolded; there are trans folks who don't suffer from dysphoria, but they're still just as trans as those who do.

About those who transition and then transition back; The vast majority (80%+) of those who de-transition cite social rejection, discrimination, ostracization, or prohibitive costs of treatment as the reason for why they chose to do so.

She's only 5'7", though obviously somewhat broader over the shoulder/chest area.

But who are you to label people trans who don't except that label? If someone is dysphoric and their choice of treatment is not transition, why would label them that way?

And I never said people who aren't dysphoric aren't trans. I said they made a choice to transition based on their life experiences, therefore weren't "born trans".

One look on r/detrans will tell you that stat is most likely a survey of people who have transitioned back rather than actual destransitioners. But that's besides the point. The issue was whether it was a choice or not. And if someone can make a decision to transition or not, and people can transition for reasons other than dysphoria, then it cannot be equated to homosexuality. You can de-trans, you can't de-gay.

 

[Halftrack]

But who are you to label people trans who don't except that label? If someone is dysphoric and their choice of treatment is not transition, why would label them that way?

I don't, I'm just saying that if it's persisted, then they're likely doing it for other reasons than not actually being trans.

And I never said people who aren't dysphoric aren't trans. I said they made a choice to transition based on their life experiences, therefore weren't "born trans".

Plenty of studies suggest that what causes someone to be trans is biological and happens in the womb, which would suggest that they were, in fact, born trans. What varies is when they realise that they are.

One look on r/detrans will tell you that stat is most likely a survey of people who have transitioned back rather than actual destransitioners. But that's besides the point. The issue was whether it was a choice or not. And if someone can make a decision to transition or not, and people can transition for reasons other than dysphoria, then it cannot be equated to homosexuality. You can de-trans, you can't de-gay.

And your anecdotal evidence, gathered by looking at a wildly transphobic reddit sub (and that is, since we're making is assumptions, likely full of false stories written by transphobes) , trumps acual research on the topic? There are several studies and surveys that have been done, and all point in the same general direction, namely that external factors are the driving force behind the vast majority of detransitions.

In short: no, being trans is not a choice any more than being bi or gay is. Then again, by your logic, gay people can submit themselves to conversion therapy. The majority choose not to, so being gay is clearly a choice, too.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I do not really want to get into this debate in isolation as it is something that I feel is very difficult to navigate.

What I will say, however is that the current Transgender debate has brought us, imho, to the edges of an sociological epoch.

I have been reading up on this debate quite a bit as I am someone who is interested in sociology, history and politics. As a result, what I see with this debate is not as simplistic as to whether a transgender women should compete with biological females (sorry, if that is wrong, I do not intend to offend anyone) but rather the conclusion of feminism/the birth of it's successor.

I say this as feminism was born in the late 18th century/early 19th century with the yearning to bring equality to the sexes. Initially this started with education and then evolved/progressed/branched off into separate strands to other areas such as; the right to vote, hold public office, equal pay, contraception, rights within marriage etc.

Throughout this evolution, their have always been feminists who have agreed/disagreed with each other and others' who supported one strand, then disavowed the other. However, what underpinned all of this was that there is no real reason for there to be differentiation between the sexes as a women could do what a man could do.

However, with the transgender strand, it, imho, brings into question the founding principle of feminism; that equality between the sexes can ever truly be achieved.

I say this, as if you play the founding notion of feminism (true equality between the sexes) to it's end point/it's last strand, it is always bound to end with whether their is any need for for categorisation/differentiation to those born with different genitalia/hormonal differences.

Therefore, I am of the belief that this current debate needs to be looked at as a whole when people debate it. By that, I mean, do you believe that true equality between the sexes can/should exist? If so, then I do not see how one can argue, imho, that transgender people cannot compete in biological female sports or that there is a need for categorisation in sport/pretty much anything. However, if you do support this, then is there a need for a new socio-categorisation/movement?

Equally, if you do believe there is a difference/there is a need for categorisation, then where do you stop? (remember that throughout the history of feminism, there have always been people who agree with one strand and disavow the other.) In addition, is there a need to re-evaluate the founding principal of feminism and acknowledge that true equality cannot ever be achieved due to biological differences or if you disagree with this, then where will feminism go from here with it's founding principal being undermined?

I recognise this is a highly philosophical interpretation of this debate, however I really think it needs to be considered when debating this issue at hand as for me it is interconnected and whatever way it goes, it will ultimately see if true equality between the sexes can be achieved or whether will be concluded it cannot.

I think this angle misses an important distinction. There is a difference between seeking political/economic/legal equality, equal access, equality of opportunity, and not recognizing any biological difference between the sexes. The former can most certainly be achieved without a blanket literal statement that 'men and women are equal in every way'. It's more like men and women should be treated equally under any legal/political/economic system.

We already make this distinction, that people should be treated equally but that doesn't equate to biological equivalence, with, for instance, people in a wheelchair. We build ramps, elevators and other components of ADA access so there is equality of access and equality of opportunity. We don't claim that people in a wheelchair are biologically "equal" to people not in a wheelchair because that would mean just building stairs and not accommodating the biological differences. Or pertinent to this example, Title IX in America grants women equal access to sports and athletic scholarships but it doesn't insist men and women all play on the same teams together.

Acknowledging that there are a few important biological differences (and this should be obvious as men do not get pregnant and give birth) should, in no way affect any of the rights and equality under political-economic systems. I believe its also okay that these differences can even grant some extra rights such as maternity leave being longer than paternity leave (for those countries/companies where paternity leave is even a thing). We can provide equality under the system without claiming that men and women are equal in every way.

 

[JohnZSmith27]

I don't, I'm just saying that if it's persisted, then they're likely doing it for other reasons than not actually being trans.


Plenty of studies suggest that what causes someone to be trans is biological and happens in the womb, which would suggest that they were, in fact, born trans. What varies is when they realise that they are.


And your anecdotal evidence, gathered by looking at a wildly transphobic reddit sub (and that is, since we're making is assumptions, likely full of false stories written by transphobes) , trumps acual research on the topic? There are several studies and surveys that have been done, and all point in the same general direction, namely that external factors are the driving force behind the vast majority of detransitions.

In short: no, being trans is not a choice any more than being bi or gay is. Then again, by your logic, gay people can submit themselves to conversion therapy. The majority choose not to, so being gay is clearly a choice, too.

None of what you're saying makes sense unless you equate being dysphoric as being trans. If someone who is dysphoric does not transition, they are not trans. If someone told you they were dysphoric but not trans, would you just tell them you know better?

If you believe the posters on Reddit are lying or transphobes, that's fine. It's the internet, some probably are. This might be more your speed.
It's a webinar for detrans awareness day. Plenty of real life de-trans people talking about their experiences.

And your last paragraph is just homophobic. Please don't compare someone's choice to transition to the immutable fact of being gay.

 

[Carolina Red]

She's only 5'7", though obviously somewhat broader over the shoulder/chest area.

If you mean Lia Thomas, then no. She’s much taller than 5’7”.

Anna Kalandanze is 5’9” per her recruiting profile:
https://www.ncsasports.org/womens-s...ore/lower-merion-high-school1/anna-kalandadze


CNN even reported her as “nearly 6’4”’ earlier this year.

“How an Ivy League swimmer became the face of the debate on transgender women in sports
By Eric Levenson, CNN

Updated 1710 GMT (0110 HKT) March 22, 2022

Boston (CNN)Lia Thomas stood tall and smiled wide atop the championship podium, her nearly 6-foot-4 frame pushing her head past the top of the Ivy League's green photo backdrop.”
https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/22/us/lia-thomas-transgender-swimmer-ivy-league/index.html

 

[Acheron]

trans women are not dominating competitions and we shouldn't be banning them just because maybe, possibly, one day they will.

yes, the same Iszac Henig that beat Lia.

Ok, I think we have a very different interpretation on the recent events and the participation on athletes such as Lia Thomas.

You say she's not dominating because she's not winning every single race but we're talking about finals at the highest level at college level in United States, which is a country that produces some of the best talent in swimming.

You see her finishing 5th or 8th it's not dominating as there are a few girls who did better than her, and thus everything is fair, but we're talking about she being amongst the best the country and in the world respective to her category. Before transitioning she wasn't at that level within the men, so the way I see it she's already jumped into a more competitive category.

I didn't want to bring this up as I thought it was irrelevant but some people, swimmers and teammates of her suspect she was holding back on some of the finals after getting so much backlash after winning the 500 yards. For me it's irrelevant because it's already very noticeable the advantages she withholds as a biological male, in the prelims and classification she was already projected as the favorite in various events because of the times she was registering. In short she's performing a lot better competing against women than what she was doing competing against men. It's not something magical, or that she suddenly became a better swimmer, her times are even slower but that is the difference in athletic performance between men and women. Anyone that has been training since an early age and then transitions from male to female is going to have an advantage when competing against biological women. It might not be enough to make them the best but they're going to be surely competing at a higher tier, so that's why it's seen as an unfair advantage.

Like I said you're not interpreting this the same way I do, I think Lia Thomas has it very rough right now if you've seen some of the videos of her competing. All the swimmers congratulate each other at the end of every race while actively ignoring her. She doesn't get any cheers and when they say her name people goes silent at best or were yelling mean things to her at worse when she won the 500 yards. So I really can't see how this can continue, the girls are clearly upset about her presence and everything it implies and it's also something the public doesn't approve as it's damaging the sport and it's integrity.

 

[Halftrack]

None of what you're saying makes sense unless you equate being dysphoric as being trans. If someone who is dysphoric does not transition, they are not trans. If someone told you they were dysphoric but not trans, would you just tell them you know better?

As I said, some people's gender dysphoria does desist, and people are free to choose whatever option they're most comfortable with when it comes to how to deal with it. Not transitioning does not equal not being trans, and I've given you several reasons for why.

If you believe the posters on Reddit are lying or transphobes, that's fine. It's the internet, some probably are. This might be more your speed. It's a webinar for detrans awareness day. Plenty of real life de-trans people talking about their experiences.

Mmm, yes, I'll watch a 5+ hour video by an anti-trans org. That's not to say the perspectives of the people featured aren't valid or real, but it's not relevant to what we were discussing, namely the causes for detransitioning. It's not like I denied it happens, nor that there aren't those who do so because they realise they aren't trans.

And your last paragraph is just homophobic. Please don't compare someone's choice to transition to the immutable fact of being gay.

No, I'm just applying logic wrt trans people to bi and gay people, which would include me.

I also noticed that you conveniently skipped the part about the suspected pre-natal biological factors.

If you mean Lia Thomas, then no. She’s much taller than 5’7”.

Anna Kalandanze is 5’9” per her recruiting profile:
https://www.ncsasports.org/womens-s...ore/lower-merion-high-school1/anna-kalandadze


CNN even reported her as “nearly 6’4”’ earlier this year.

“How an Ivy League swimmer became the face of the debate on transgender women in sports
By Eric Levenson, CNN

Updated 1710 GMT (0110 HKT) March 22, 2022

Boston (CNN)Lia Thomas stood tall and smiled wide atop the championship podium, her nearly 6-foot-4 frame pushing her head past the top of the Ivy League's green photo backdrop.”
https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/22/us/lia-thomas-transgender-swimmer-ivy-league/index.html

My bad, saw that number bandied about elsewhere and assumed it was correct.

 

[JohnZSmith27]

As I said, some people's gender dysphoria does desist, and people are free to choose whatever option they're most comfortable with when it comes to how to deal with it. Not transitioning does not equal not being trans, and I've given you several reasons for why.

Mmm, yes, I'll watch a 5+ hour video by an anti-trans org. That's not to say the perspectives of the people featured aren't valid or real, but it's not relevant to what we were discussing, namely the causes for detransitioning. It's not like I denied it happens, nor that there aren't those who do so because they realise they aren't trans.

No, I'm just applying logic wrt trans people to bi and gay people, which would include me.

I also noticed that you conveniently skipped the part about the suspected pre-natal biological factors.

My bad, saw that number bandied about elsewhere and assumed it was correct.

Some peoples dysphoria does not desist and yet they still don't transition. Some people transition and their dysphoria persists so not sure why you think that proves anything. Again being dysphoric is not being trans.

Don't watch the video then. You dismissed the accounts of people on Reddit so I was merely giving you the chance to listen to real-life de-trans people tell their stories.

If you're gay or bi it's even more perplexing why you would think someone choosing to undergo transition is the same as being born gay/bi. How can you equate a condition that can desist with homosexuality?

With regards to your point about pre natal. The evidence suggests that pre natal factors along with genetics, environmental factors can contribute to the susceptibility of development of dysphoria. So not only are people not born trans, they're not born gender dysphoric as it's a condition that develops due to a myriad of factors. I didn't respond because you continually confuse transitioning with dysphoria.

 

[Superden]

Its this isnt it. its such a small issue thats been turned into a major one by culture war warriors and right wing press.

 

[Carolina Red]

My bad, saw that number bandied about elsewhere and assumed it was correct.

No worries. There’s something going on online where folks are changing / misrepresenting Lia Thomas’ height recently to say she’s around 5’8”. Just do a Twitter search for “Lia Thomas height” and you’ll see what I mean.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

No worries. There’s something going on online where folks are changing / misrepresenting Lia Thomas’ height recently to say she’s around 5’8”. Just do a Twitter search for “Lia Thomas height” and you’ll see what I mean.

Like a Manchester United transfer fee.

 

[Halftrack]

Some peoples dysphoria does not desist and yet they still don't transition. Some people transition and their dysphoria persists so not sure why you think that proves anything. Again being dysphoric is not being trans.

Contradicts literally nothing I've said anywhere, but do go on tilting at windmills.

Don't watch the video then. You dismissed the accounts of people on Reddit so I was merely giving you the chance to listen to real-life de-trans people tell their stories.

My original claim wasn't that no one detransitions because they realise they aren't trans, it was that the vast majority do so for other, external reasons. Your response to which was to counter it by citing a controversial reddit sub, then linking a video with individual accounts. None of which counters or refutes the stats I referenced, so I'm unsure as to what you're even trying to prove at this point. You're certainly not arguing against anything I said.

If you're gay or bi it's even more perplexing why you would think someone choosing to undergo transition is the same as being born gay/bi. How can you equate a condition that can desist with homosexuality?

Because it's generally accepted that those who are trans have been so from birth. Most report having felt different for as long as they can remember, what varies is usually when they realised why. Hence I don't believe it's a choice anymore than I believe sexuality is a choice. As should have been clear by me prefacing the example with "by your logic."

With regards to your point about pre natal. The evidence suggests that pre natal factors along with genetics, environmental factors can contribute to the susceptibility of development of dysphoria. So not only are people not born trans, they're not born gender dysphoric as it's a condition that develops due to a myriad of factors. I didn't respond because you continually confuse transitioning with dysphoria.

No, I acknowledge the very strong correlation between dysphoria and being trans. You're the one who seems to think being trans is a result of gender dysphoria. It isn't. There are people who aren't trans who suffer from GD, the majority children, most of whom turn out to be bi or gay. Which hints at a link between nascent homo-/bisexuality and GD, but we've yet to understand how or why. There are also trans people who haven't suffered from GD, and still transitioned because they identified as something other than their assigned gender, just without significant distress resulting from that mismatch.

And the reality is that the majority of adolescents and adults who suffer from GD are also trans. Not all, but the majority. This is borne out by the data.

 

[MarylandMUFan]

Science Vs. podcast has a really nice episode on trans children and trans athletes (as kids). I wish they went into more but there is not a lot of data out there:
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aH...Q4aUDahcKEwjo9f7ghN32AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAQ&hl=en

 

[NotThatSoph]

I can't believe we're doing the "being trans is a choice" thing. I'm lying, but feck.

 

[MarylandMUFan]

I can't believe we're doing the "being trans is a choice" thing. I'm lying, but feck.

Yeah, after that vast majority got past the "gay is a choice" bit, you would think they would come to the logical conclusion that trans isn't either but I don't think logic is where they are getting their "beliefs" from.

 

[stepic]

I can't believe we're doing the "being trans is a choice" thing. I'm lying, but feck.

Tell me about it.

Go back 30 years and pretty much all of PhilQ’s points were used exactly the same against gay people. Bigotry under a new hat.

 

[Redlyn]

So now being trans is a choice. What is this medieval thinking. I wonder if he himself CHOSE to be cis or he just IS.

 

[JohnZSmith27]

Tell me about it.

Go back 30 years and pretty much all of PhilQ’s points were used exactly the same against gay people. Bigotry under a new hat.

I have said nothing bigoted. I said transitioning was a choice. Based on the fact that someone has a choice whether to transition or not. I didn't say dysphoria was a choice. I never said trans people don't exist. I never said I disliked trans people or thought they deserved abuse. In fact I've stated the opposite. I've stated my admiration for trans people and the struggle they face. Yet you come here calling me a bigot.

 

[Tibs]

Are there trans mens - gone from a woman to a man - who are competing with men in sport and doing well?

Serious Q

 

[stepic]

I have said nothing bigoted. I said transitioning was a choice. Based on the fact that someone has a choice whether to transition or not. I didn't say dysphoria was a choice. I never said trans people don't exist. I never said I disliked trans people or thought they deserved abuse. In fact I've stated the opposite. I've stated my admiration for trans people and the struggle they face. Yet you come here calling me a bigot.

You don’t think trans people are born trans. Same argument as gay people 30 years ago.

You’ve given anecdotal evidence of people transitioning because of some kind of fetish or childhood trauma, as if this relates to trans people in any way. This same kind of mental gymnastics was used to explain why people ‘turned’ gay 30 years ago, too.

And whilst you say some nice things about trans people I’m not convinced you accept trans women as women, nor trans men as men.

 

[JohnZSmith27]

You don’t think trans people are born trans. Same argument as gay people 30 years ago.

You’ve given anecdotal evidence of people transitioning because of some kind of fetish or childhood trauma, as if this relates to trans people in any way. This same kind of mental gymnastics was used to explain why people ‘turned’ gay 30 years ago, too.

And whilst you say some nice things about trans people I’m not convinced you accept trans women as women, not trans men as men.

I've given you examples of people who didn't transition due to dysphoria. You are aware you don't need to be dysphoric to transition? Just because they are in a minority, are they any less trans than people who are dysphoric?

 

[Stack]

I've given you examples of people who didn't transition due to dysphoria. You are aware you don't need to be dysphoric to transition? Just because they are in a minority, are they any less trans than people who are dysphoric?

Its unusual I know but I have two sets of friends who have had a child transition. These are 2 kids I have known since they were born, now both in their early 20s and I know this is anecdotal but for both of them it wasnt a choice, its something they had to do because of who they were as people. Its an incredibly nuanced and complex thing and having hard and fast, blanket beliefs on choice or not is pretty naive.

 

[The Purley King]

Are there trans mens - gone from a woman to a man - who are competing with men in sport and doing well?

Serious Q

No
Quod erat demonstrandum.

 

[RedC]

Tell me about it.

Go back 30 years and pretty much all of PhilQ’s points were used exactly the same against gay people. Bigotry under a new hat.

Literally all you do in this thread(for years at this point) is call people trying to make reasoned arguments bigots. There is no before and after point for someone who is gay(strawman), there is clearly a physical one for people that transition. We are talking about individuals competing in gender segregated sport, and how transitioning impacts the current setup in sports. I'm sure you know exactly what he is saying but it just gives you a nice jumping off point to call someone else a bigot.

 

[stepic]

Literally all you do in this thread(for years at this point) is call people trying to make reasoned arguments bigots. There is no before and after point for someone who is gay, there is clearly a physical one for people that transition. I'm sure you know exactly what he is saying but it just gives you a nice jumping off point to call someone else a bigot.

Are people born trans or do they choose to be trans?

 

[Carolina Red]

Maybe before calling folks bigots, let’s all take a deep breath and find a dictionary and read the difference between the words “transgender” and “transition”.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Literally all you do in this thread(for years at this point) is call people trying to make reasoned arguments bigots. There is no before and after point for someone who is gay(strawman), there is clearly a physical one for people that transition. We are talking about individuals competing in gender segregated sport, and how transitioning impacts the current setup in sports. I'm sure you know exactly what he is saying but it just gives you a nice jumping off point to call someone else a bigot.

That conversation is not about sports, it's about whether or not being trans is a choice. You read it, so you know.

 

[RedC]

Are people born trans or do they choose to be trans?

I don't know if there is even a definitive answer to this? Do you think every trans person ever was trans from the moment they were born?

 

[JohnZSmith27]

Its unusual I know but I have two sets of friends who have had a child transition. These are 2 kids I have known since they were born, now both in their early 20s and I know this is anecdotal but for both of them it wasnt a choice, its something they had to do because of who they were as people. Its an incredibly nuanced and complex thing and having hard and fast, blanket beliefs on choice or not is pretty naive.

But do you get that at some point, the child and/or the parents made the decision to change name, start puberty blockers etc? It may have seemed inevitable based on the childs dysphoria but at some point the decision was made that transition was best for the child. Other parents and children in the same situation may make a difference choice.

I'm not sure how this has ended up with me being painted as someone who is against trans people or their transition as that is simply not the case. My belief that the act of transition is a choice is based on the fact that some people choose to transition and some don't. Some choose to transition and change back. Some change where dysphoria is not the driver. And if a conscious decision is being made on whether or not to transition i don't see why such an autonomous action is being equated with the immutable fact of homosexuality. Not to mention as someone said above the majority of kids will end up growing out of their dysphoria if they pass through puberty without blockers etc. This isn't something that happens with homosexuality so again another weird comparison.

I don't know why I'm bothering to reply as people seem to have decided I'm some evil bigot but there it is.

 

[RedC]

That conversation is not about sports, it's about whether or not being trans is a choice. You read it, so you know.

The conversation has stemmed from that, and is going down a different path due to @stepic's usual action of just calling everyone within a certain radius a bigot.

 

[Wibble]

If we legislate that you have to compete as your biological birth sex or the sex you were when you went though puberty doesn't that mean that trans men who have had hormone treatment would be forced to compete in the women's comp? Or would they effectively also be banned as they would probably contravene doping regulations?

 

[stepic]

Maybe before calling folks bigots, let’s all take a deep breath and find a dictionary and read the difference between the words “transgender” and “transition”.

If we accept that trans people are born trans, then the argument ‘they choose to transition’ doesn’t hold any water whatsoever, whether there exists some trans people who have not transitioned or not.

 

[Carolina Red]

If we accept that trans people are born trans, then the argument ‘they choose to transition’ doesn’t hold any water whatsoever, whether there exists some trans people who have not transitioned or not.

It’s literally a medical decision that you have to consult with medical professionals about. Goddamn

 

[NotThatSoph]

Maybe before calling folks bigots, let’s all take a deep breath and find a dictionary and read the difference between the words “transgender” and “transition”.

Ok, let's:

More power to them for making that choice if it makes them more comfortable in themselves but we cannot and should not expect them to be given an unfair advantage due to how they choose to identify.

This is about identifying as trans, not about transitioning.

The conversation has stemmed from that, and is going down a different path due to @stepic's usual action of just calling everyone within a certain radius a bigot.

No, this isn't true. The accusation of bigotry came after. You know this.

 

[Carolina Red]

This is about identifying as trans, not about transitioning

Directly preceded by this sentence.

The integrity of the sport should not be compromised to accommodate what was ultimately a choice made by that individual to transition.

So yes, “let’s”.

 

[stepic]

It’s literally a medical decision that you have to consult with medical professionals about. Goddamn

I know what transitioning is. I’m not even sure you’re keeping up with the conversation anymore.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Directly preceded by this sentence.

So yes, “let’s”.

Yes, and what do you think that changes?

 

[Wibble]

I'd hope that most people would consider that non-elite/youth sport should be about inclusion and socialisation. At the elite level it seems to come down to balancing the mental wellbeing of transgender people (not just those who compete themselves) against fair competition for women. One "side" will consider legislation that restricts trans people's participation in sport as unnecessary and discriminatory, and the other "side" will consider it something necessary to ensure fair competition.

I'm not sure that these opposing views allow for a solution that pleases everyone.