I definitely don't have the answers either that's for sure.It's not done because a boy says "I'm a girl", there's a years long process involving physicians and mental health professionals before it ever gets to the point where one would consider medical transition. Many children do desist and go on to identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. The goal isn't to make children trans, it's to identify those who are early and allow them the treatment that will allow the to be comfortable with themselves and lead happy lives, hopefully preventing years of suffering and anguish. If gender dysphoria persist into puberty (or into the years where one would enter puberty if on blockers) it's very likely to be permanent.
And to add, most places don't allow actual surgeries before they reach age of majority.
Not only their teen years, potentially significant parts of the rest of their lives.
I won't claim to know all the answers, I'm merely pointing to an available solution. I trust the professionals to know how best to go about it.
See, while I understand with what you're saying in relation to sports, there's no way i can get behind letting a child transition before puberty. They're far too young to make that decision, in medical terms imo. I mean you're talking what 10 or 11 years old
With the jockey, gender disparities are very small to basically non-existant, it would seem.Not sure if right place to write/ask this.
But heard about the female jockey who won a big event recently. Not really a horse racing fan so know very little.
Would horse racing be a sport where gender isn't a big issue? Wouldn't it maybe favour women due to the whole size and weight issues?
If so why haven't more women won bigger events in horse racing?
NB: totally out of my depth with horse racing so sorry if it's a daft question.
As a novice the horse is the most important aspect and to my knowledge not many female horses (mare?) have won much of anything.Not sure if right place to write/ask this.
But heard about the female jockey who won a big event recently. Not really a horse racing fan so know very little.
Would horse racing be a sport where gender isn't a big issue? Wouldn't it maybe favour women due to the whole size and weight issues?
If so why haven't more women won bigger events in horse racing?
NB: totally out of my depth with horse racing so sorry if it's a daft question.
With the jockey, gender disparities are very small to basically non-existant, it would seem.
https://horsenetwork.com/2021/06/jockey-gender-isnt-an-advantage-in-racing-finds-economic-study/
With the horse, however… only 3 fillies have ever won the Kentucky Derby in its 146 year history.
Better explained than I didAs a novice the horse is the most important aspect and to my knowledge not many female horses (mare?) have won much of anything.
It's a weird one. Must be very difficult for the parents of these kids. Like I understand wanting to pause puberty if it helps the child figure themselves out. But theres studies to suggest the majority of dysphoric kids will indentify with their biological sex if left to pass through puberty normally. Whereas the overwhelming majority who take puberty blockers will go on to take opposite sex hormones according to that tavistock report. Plus although we hope it's completely safe, the long term studies are scarce at best.
Not sure if right place to write/ask this.
But heard about the female jockey who won a big event recently. Not really a horse racing fan so know very little.
Would horse racing be a sport where gender isn't a big issue? Wouldn't it maybe favour women due to the whole size and weight issues?
If so why haven't more women won bigger events in horse racing?
NB: totally out of my depth with horse racing so sorry if it's a daft question.
This topic I wish would just stop being brought upThis topic always reminds me of Bill Burr.
We're talking about making irreversible changes to a person, so I can definitely understand why some would be uncomfortable with it as an alternative.I definitely don't have the answers either that's for sure.
My wife works with a woman and her daughters best friend was born a boy but identifies a girl, she's 1st year in secondary school here in NI which I think is 11.
The kid has only just be allowed a mobile phone for example. I just don't know how you can honestly allow that kid to begin whatever it takes to transition.
My wife has no doubt the kid will eventually but at that age, I just wouldn't ever be able to wrap my head around it. Il
Disgusting? What's disgusting about it?The thing is.... kids wouldn't even know this was a thing if it wasn't written so much about in media/social media. Sure, they might feel different, i have no clue, but you don't know how others feel, so you have noone to compare with.
I always felt different to people around me, nothing related to this subject at all, but i didn't know how others were thinking, maybe they were thinking the same? So i didn't talk to anyone about it, got my little diagnosis last year, so now i know, and things make sense. Seeing tweets posted on Reddit (i know, it's always the worst that are linked there, but those people are real anyway) where people talk about their kids' genders, kids under 10, and giving them blockers, is disgusting.
Let kids grow up and then figure shit out, you don't have to wear blue if you're a boy and pink if you're a girl!
This is the biggest pile of shit I've ever read, must be a joke!We're talking about making irreversible changes to a person, so I can definitely understand why some would be uncomfortable with it as an alternative.
Disgusting? What's disgusting about it?
Kids generally learn to differentiate between genders before they're 2 years old, and become aware of their own gender before they're 3. Gender dysphoria can set in as early as age 4-5. I doubt these kids do a lot of reading on the topic. Are there those, among the somewhat older, who might decide they're trans because they want to be special? Probably, but that's why there should be professionals involved. Are there parents who might want their kid to be trans to be special? I don't know, I hope not, but Münchhausen-by-proxy is a thing, so I'm sure they exist. But again, that's why professionals should be involved.
"Let kids grow up and figure things out" is terrible advice, as a huge portion of them suffer a great deal of distress as a result of the mismatch between their assigned and perceived genders. If a kid keeps insisting that they're the opposite gender, you should get in touch with professionals who can help them. Even if you're opposed to prescribing them puberty blockers and hormones, then at the very least let them talk to a professional who can help them sort through their thoughts and feelings, and if they do suffer from gender dysphoria, let them socially transition. If that helps them and resolves their dysphoria, or at least alleviates it, maybe consider actually allowing blockers and later hormones, so that puberty doesn't make irreversible changes that may bother them for the rest of their lives or might require expensive surgeries to fix.
Really now. Why, if I may ask?This is the biggest pile of shit I've ever read, must be a joke!
Weird argument. There's many things people don't have to care about as a hobby or interest but still feel it's necessary to call out something they deem unjust or unfair.I don't know the answer to this as it's certainly a very complex issue. What annoys me though is seeing people (I'm not talking about anyone here) who don't give two fecks about women's sports suddenly outraged women's sports are being ruined. So much transphobia disguised as concern makes it almost impossible to discuss this seriously in society at large.
Nothing weird about it, just replace "don't give two fecks about women's sports" with "treats women's sports as a punchline" and it might make more sense.Weird argument. There's many things people don't have to care about as a hobby or interest but still feel it's necessary to call out something they deem unjust or unfair.
Weird argument. There's many things people don't have to care about as a hobby or interest but still feel it's necessary to call out something they deem unjust or unfair.
I mustn't have explained myself well. Some people who are only interested in attacking transgender women and couldn't care less about women's sports presenting themselves as defenders of women's sports leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You see a lot of "oh no I'm not transphobic, I just care about women's sports being fair, that's all" when it's obviously not the case.
The thing is.... kids wouldn't even know this was a thing if it wasn't written so much about in media/social media. Sure, they might feel different, i have no clue, but you don't know how others feel, so you have noone to compare with.
I always felt different to people around me, nothing related to this subject at all, but i didn't know how others were thinking, maybe they were thinking the same? So i didn't talk to anyone about it, got my little diagnosis last year, so now i know, and things make sense. Seeing tweets posted on Reddit (i know, it's always the worst that are linked there, but those people are real anyway) where people talk about their kids' genders, kids under 10, and giving them blockers, is disgusting.
Let kids grow up and then figure shit out, you don't have to wear blue if you're a boy and pink if you're a girl!
#554 to #1...
"A Look At the Numbers and Times: No Denying the Advantages of Lia Thomas
Just how much of an advantage does Lia Thomas possesses over biological females? The numbers paint a clear picture. The fact that the University of Pennsylvania swimmer has soared from a mid-500s ranking (554th in the 200 freestyle) in men’s competition to the top-ranked swimmer in women’s competition tells the story of the unfairness which is unfolding at the NCAA level."
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.c...imes-no-denying-the-advantages-of-lia-thomas/
Really now. Why, if I may ask?
edit: like really, what the feck is objectionable about suggesting people should get help they need, from professionals at that? Is it preferable we leave them to suffer in silence, so that you lot don't have to be disgusted at the idea that they exist?
Thomas was ranked #554 as a male in the 200 and then went to being ranked #1 as a female in the 200 going into the NCAA finals. It literally says that in the article.I have no idea how Thomas has done pre or post transitioning, but 500m and 200m freestyle are quite different. Saying that she went from 554 to 1 makes no sense.
Thomas was ranked #554 as a male in the 200 and then went to being ranked #1 as a female in the 200 going into the NCAA finals. It literally says that in the article.
Thomas still finished 5th in the country in the 200… that’s 549 places higher than the expected finish against men and also knocked someone else off the podium and kept them from being an All-American in that event.Sorry, I didn't realize you were talking about pre tournament seasonal bests. She ended up more than two seconds behind the winner, and would've finished third if she matched her best race.
It looks like the US swim team isn't at their best, though. Thomas would've won a narrow victory last year, before that we have to go back to 2013. Katie Ledecky did compete for a bit, which isn't quite fair, but even without her the winning times have been around 4:31, two seconds faster than Thomas.
I have no idea how Thomas has done pre or post transitioning, but 500m and 200m freestyle are quite different. Saying that she went from 554 to 1 makes no sense.
Thomas still finished 5th in the country in the 200… that’s 549 places higher than the expected finish against men and also knocked someone else off the podium and kept them from being an All-American in that event.
Thomas still finished 5th in the country in the 200… that’s 549 places higher than the expected finish against men and also knocked someone else off the podium and kept them from being an All-American in that event.
Do you feel that a mountain is being made out of a molehill regarding Lia Thomas?"Expected finish" is a bit of a weird term. She was #554 in what year, 2018 at the latest? At what events, competing against who and at what age? Not even including the fact that people progress at different rates (as a Norwegian, a poignant example is that in biathlon Vetle Sjåstad Christiansen used to dominate Johannes Thingnes Bø as a junior, while JTB went on to become probably the best ever, but that will mean nothing to anyone else), the 2022 winning time was 1.41.12 while it was 1.39.80 in 2018.
Even if Thomas has a physical advantage, the fact that she was supposedly ranked 554 4+ years ago does not mean that she would be expected to finish at 554 today. These are clickbait numbers.
Do you feel that a mountain is being made out of a molehill regarding Lia Thomas?
I don't find this to be a convincing counter argument. Today a record isn't broken, tomorrow it might.Depends what you mean. If she has an unfair advantage, that is something that should be talked about.
In general, though, with people using her to talk about trans women dominating women's sports, then absolutely. Here we have one trans woman performing at a high level, and she's not dominating. Her 500m win was 9 seconds behind Ledecky's record.
One of the big battles is keeping the debates on this away from the vitriolic and keeping them sensible and balanced. Lots of people in this thread are doing exactly that. One fear I have is the longer the decision making process takes or the working out of how to handle this issue takes the easier it will be for the nasty side of the debate to appear. This needs to be an issue that is tackled coherently and also quickly by the authorities.I don't find this to be a convincing counter argument. Today a record isn't broken, tomorrow it might.
A Lia Thomas is already doing very well for herself. Should we really wait until an even better transwoman comes along and shatters all records before concerns about transwomen athletes are deemed valid?
I think the bigger point here is that the trend has been set that transwomen are competing with biological females and the question is whether this trend is good or bad. I myself am conflicted on it. But there are already biological females losing to transwomen at this moment.
I don't find this to be a convincing counter argument. Today a record isn't broken, tomorrow it might.
A Lia Thomas is already doing very well for herself. Should we really wait until an even better transwoman comes along and shatters all records before concerns about transwomen athletes are deemed valid?
I think the bigger point here is that the trend has been set that transwomen are competing with biological females and the question is whether this trend is good or bad. I myself am conflicted on it. But there are already biological females losing to transwomen at this moment.
Depends what you mean. If she has an unfair advantage, that is something that should be talked about.
In general, though, with people using her to talk about trans women dominating women's sports, then absolutely. Here we have one trans woman performing at a high level, and she's not dominating. Her 500m win was 9 seconds behind Ledecky's record.
What do you think would have to happen for you to change your mind on this issue? I assume by your answer, it could be if there was sufficient evidence to show there is an unfair advantage?
Note: For the purposes of clarity, I’m undecided on the issue. It’s very complex and will be hard to solve.
Literally defeated 2 Olympic silver medalists en route to a national championship. That is a dominant performance.Here we have one trans woman performing at a high level, and she's not dominating.
She does.If she has an unfair advantage, that is something that should be talked about.
They’re not clickbait. They’re what we have to go on for comparison for that one individual. Can’t make numbers up that don’t exist.Even if Thomas has a physical advantage, the fact that she was supposedly ranked 554 4+ years ago does not mean that she would be expected to finish at 554 today. These are clickbait numbers.
It isn’t overblown to the people who lose to them in athletic competition, as has been pointed out many times.Is all this just overblown in the sense that very few people are transgender and very few of those who are become professional athletes?
That's the nature of sports though isn't it? There's always someone bigger, faster, more skillful, more intelligent, more determined, richer, luckier.It isn’t overblown to the people who lose to them in athletic competition, as has been pointed out many times.
