Tour De France 2013

The readings are taken virtually everyday though. The only rider who never doped up and has been firmly against it is Greg LeMond. The toughest stages are the mountains, there is no doubt about that to be honest. So, the power output of riders is put under scrutiny and analysed. Remember, on a sprint or if it is a time trial, these guys will produce in excess of 1,000 watts every hour that they ride. However, when they are climbing a mountain of 21+ kms at a gradient of 7.9% and they do it in a near-record time, then the power output has to be analysed. As I mentioned earlier, the likes of Lance Armstrong who was juiced up in every single Tour De France would have beaten Froome only once by a time of 37 seconds. This does beg the question, is Froome doped up? A juiced up Armstrong only produced a maximum 450 watts of power, Miguel Indurain produced an incredible 455 watts, and Froome with 433 watts of power.

For information:

For years elite riders would generate a bit over 400 watts on long difficult climbs. Then suddenly in the early 90s, and continuing right on through Armstrong’s era, the riders were putting up superhuman efforts of close to 450 watts. Miguel Indurain, winner of five straight tours from ’91 through ’95 was suddenly producing 450 watts on alpine climbs, including a staggering 455 watts during his fifth tour win in ’95, when just a few years earlier no rider could produce much over 410 watts.
Click to expand...

Is there anyone that can explain this at all? 410 was normal for a brilliant climber.

Armstong generated super human EPO boosted power outputs of close to 440 watts throughout his career. Today riders power outputs are less than in the doping infused Tours from the ’90s and mid 2000s and for the most part are back to the pre-EPO values of about 410 watts
Click to expand...

Again, it must mean that Froome is beyond human if he isn't taking anything.
 
King_Eric said:
Well, his bike really didn't change that much at the time of the crash itself. Veelers on the other hand moved to the right of the road. You can see it clearly if you follow the white lines on the road. It's just the shoulder he's placing there that's causing Veelers to fall. But that's a natural reflex any sprinter has when someone is getting close to them. Veelers was drifting to the right, Cav sets his shoulder, but unlike what usually happens in a sprint (other sprinter also places the shoulder to counter), Veelers was not paying attention and loses his balance.

I don't believe Cav did this on purpose. Just an accident. There have been several similar almost-incidents today with riders from the sprint train dropping out through the middle of the peleton. They often don't have the alertness anymore and that way accidents can happen.
Click to expand...

Veelers was slightly drifting to the right of the center line, and Cavendish was drifting left towards the centre line, simple as that then.

Elliott said:
No, they wouldn't. These things happen every year but the only rider to have been tossed out because of it in the last decade is that complete spazzer Mark Renshaw. Surprised Cav avoided a stage relegation, though.
Click to expand...

You cannot compare shoving someone to a headbutt, that is ridiculous!!!!
 
I think we should expect some increase in wattage from the best riders now compared to the best riders of the late 80s with advancement in training methods, diets, etc.

The question really is, how much should we expect? We have a near 20 year gap where any measurement of how advanced knowledge might have help push the limits of wattage has been utterly obfuscated by the overriding and utterly dominating presence of EPO and its successors.

Basically, we just have to guess at who have been clean in latter years and cross our fingers they can serve as benchmarks. Ie, what kind of wattage is someone like Cadel Evans producing?

Lemond's best wattage was in the 430s region. Evans is, IIRC, around 440.Just l

But really, you need to examine wattage against VO2max of the individual riders if you want to get a better idea of how doped they are. Armstrong never had much in the way of VO2max. That was also why he benefited so incredibly much from doping (none of Armstrong, Ulrich or Indurain were climbers before the got on the juice. EPO made it possible for them).

Without knowing more, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Froome clean could produce 430 on an isolated stage early in the tour, although it does poke at the edges of credibility.

If Froome is so confident he is clean though, he should release his VO2max to the public. Evans has, fwiw (his VO2max has always been crazy high. Not as good as Lemond's, but still very very high. around 87 IIRC).
 
Proud_Lyon said:
You cannot compare shoving someone to a headbutt, that is ridiculous!!!!
Click to expand...

I'm not. Renshaw was disqualified for repeated dangerous and unsporting behavior, including shoving, butting and blocking off other riders. What Cavendish did today wasn't pretty, but it happens each and every year, and it doesn't warrant being thrown out of the Tour. And that's coming from someone who doesn't like the guy.
 
B20 said:
I think we should expect some increase in wattage from the best riders now compared to the best riders of the late 80s with advancement in training methods, diets, etc.

The question really is, how much should we expect? We have a near 20 year gap where any measurement of how advanced knowledge might have help push the limits of wattage has been utterly obfuscated by the overriding and utterly dominating presence of EPO and its successors.

Basically, we just have to guess at who have been clean in latter years and cross our fingers they can serve as benchmarks. Ie, what kind of wattage is someone like Cadel Evans producing?

Lemond's best wattage was in the 430s region. Evans is, IIRC, around 440.Just l

But really, you need to examine wattage against VO2max of the individual riders if you want to get a better idea of how doped they are. Armstrong never had much in the way of VO2max. That was also why he benefited so incredibly much from doping (none of Armstrong, Ulrich or Indurain were climbers before the got on the juice. EPO made it possible for them).

Without knowing more, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Froome clean could produce 430 on an isolated stage early in the tour, although it does poke at the edges of credibility.

If Froome is so confident he is clean though, he should release his VO2max to the public. Evans has, fwiw (his VO2max has always been crazy high. Not as good as Lemond's, but still very very high. around 87 IIRC).
Click to expand...

LeMonds best power output was actually 410 watts.Which brings us back to the Eddy Merckx was he or wasn't he doping on a regular basis? You brought up advanced training methods, diets, training at altitude or what have you. You are right in that sense, but there is one slight flaw in that over 20 years separates Eddy Merckx's one-hour record and Chris Boardmans. Eddy Mercxk was really a sprinter, yet Boardman was. So, they both do the one hour record; one in Mexico City 2,000m above sea level, the other does it in good old England. The result was a win by Boardman by 10 metres. This is nothing as far as the advancement in training methods are concerned. In cycling, it is very much different and the seeds of doubt as to who is clean and who isn't is clearly up for debate and will continue to be like that for years to come unfortunately. However, we will soon see if Froome is clearly taking stuff or not, because he is going to tackle Mont Ventoux where he will cycling uphill for almost an hour solid and which is tough. I found a list of best times for that particular mountain but lost them.
 
B20 said:
fwiw, Bike Pure do not endorse Froome as a clean rider precisely because he won't release his numbers.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/06/news/bike-pure-removes-froome-ahead-of-tour_292019
Click to expand...

They did actually work it out though with a simple equation and they reckoned he produced 433 watts of power. As mentioned before, even the best climbers in the world are not close to that, and even if they had been, they have been found to be cheating. As far as I'm concerned, if you have nothing to hide, then give the results.

Here is an interesting graphic from last year for one rider:

http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/KB47SXGBPXJWZPYRZYDQSPG4TA
 
Cav had urine thrown at him during today's stage. What a disgrace some fans are

Proud_Lyon said:
They did actually work it out though with a simple equation and they reckoned he produced 433 watts of power. As mentioned before, even the best climbers in the world are not close to that, and even if they had been, they have been found to be cheating. As far as I'm concerned, if you have nothing to hide, then give the results.

Here is an interesting graphic from last year for one rider:

http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/KB47SXGBPXJWZPYRZYDQSPG4TA
Click to expand...
Did you even read the article??

Teams and riders, however, typically guard those performance numbers closely, claiming they do not want to tip off their competition or to have the numbers misrepresented in the media or by detractors.
Click to expand...

Maybe he didn't release the numbers because Sky don't want him to. sky have been one of the most anti drugs campaigning teams so this witch hunt from you is bordering on obesession. Sky made all riders and staff sign contracts to say they haven't ever and aren't currently doping, anyone who refuses to sign it was sacked immediately. I don't see any other teams doing that.
 
Nice :eek:


A spectator has thrown urine at Britain's Mark Cavendish as he was competing in the Tour de France.
It happened on stage 11 during the time trial from Avranches to Mont Saint Michel on Wednesday.
The liquid was thrown from a bottle and the 28-year-old initially thought it was water but quickly realised what it was from the taste.
Cavendish has declined to discuss the incident, but he is said to have been left "upset and disappointed".
It is not know whether Cavendish was targeted.
Click to expand...



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23251598
 
Froome extends his lead further over the rest. It's going to take something extraordinary for him to lose this now
 
Yeah......Chris Froome......just wow. Still performances like this at the TdF will never get the praise they'll deserve again. Thanks Lance.
 
akash02 said:
Froome extends his lead further over the rest. It's going to take something extraordinary for him to lose this now
Click to expand...

The way I see it, it could go two ways. It could go in Froomes favour if Valverde has another off-day like he did when Quintana attacked Froome 4 times but Valverde didn't want to follow which could suggest that Valverde maybe carrying an injury of sorts. If that is the case, then Froome will win the Tour De France for sure. However, should movistar ride like they did the other day and leave Froome all alone, then they have a good chance of leaving Froome stranded behind. To regain 3 minutes over Froome is possible, but this depends on Valverde. Same with Contador, another rider who is not really firing on all cylinders this year it seems.
 
Proud_Lyon said:
The way I see it, it could go two ways. It could go in Froomes favour if Valverde has another off-day like he did when Quintana attacked Froome 4 times but Valverde didn't want to follow which could suggest that Valverde maybe carrying an injury of sorts. If that is the case, then Froome will win the Tour De France for sure. However, should movistar ride like they did the other day and leave Froome all alone, then they have a good chance of leaving Froome stranded behind. To regain 3 minutes over Froome is possible, but this depends on Valverde. Same with Contador, another rider who is not really firing on all cylinders this year it seems.
Click to expand...

It will make for very interesting mountain stages, that's for sure. Evans, I think has all but given up already but all of Contador, Quintana and Valverde will have to attack at some point during the alps and while Contador and Valverde have looked sluggish, this Quintana guy looks the real deal to me. Pity Schleck had such a shocker though, wanted him to do well
 
akash02 said:
It will make for very interesting mountain stages, that's for sure. Evans, I think has all but given up already but all of Contador, Quintana and Valverde will have to attack at some point during the alps and while Contador and Valverde have looked sluggish, this Quintana guy looks the real deal to me. Pity Schleck had such a shocker though, wanted him to do well
Click to expand...

For me, Quintana has been an inspiration, a breath of fresh air on this Tour De France. However, you have left one cyclist out of the list, and it is not your fault either. Suffice to say, for me, he is a pretty good rider; his name being Thomas Voeckler. He is a brilliant rider and he did well to keep the yellow jersey for a long period of time which suggests he was a serious contender (last year I think), yet this year he really has dropped off the pace. Is it simply that the likes of Froome have got better, or have the likes of Contador, Schleck, Evans and Voeckler just having a really bad tour? I am swinging towards the latter. It is not that Froome is great, it is simply because the serious contenders for this years Tour have not turned up and by the looks of it, don't feel motivated either. That is the impression that I am getting. An old Contador would have forced the race in the mountains yet he has done nothing, same with Evans or Voeckler.
 
Proud_Lyon said:
For me, Quintana has been an inspiration, a breath of fresh air on this Tour De France. However, you have left one cyclist out of the list, and it is not your fault either. Suffice to say, for me, he is a pretty good rider; his name being Thomas Voeckler. He is a brilliant rider and he did well to keep the yellow jersey for a long period of time which suggests he was a serious contender (last year I think), yet this year he really has dropped off the pace. Is it simply that the likes of Froome have got better, or have the likes of Contador, Schleck, Evans and Voeckler just having a really bad tour? I am swinging towards the latter. It is not that Froome is great, it is simply because the serious contenders for this years Tour have not turned up and by the looks of it, don't feel motivated either. That is the impression that I am getting. An old Contador would have forced the race in the mountains yet he has done nothing, same with Evans or Voeckler.
Click to expand...


Voeckler as a serious contender?:lol:

Ask the man himself and he would laugh at you!
 
NM said:
Voeckler as a serious contender?:lol:

Ask the man himself and he would laugh at you!
Click to expand...

Perhaps you should read the statement again. I said after last years performance, he "WAS" a serious contender. Even the French thought he was going to do well, but alas no. Even with a serious knee problem, he did well last year which shows the rider has spirit. However, that was last year, which I did specify and you have obviously forgotten to read. This year, he is either having a bad Tour De France compared to last year or he has been asked by the boss of Europcar to do the job of a lieutenant; that is to say, help Pierre Rolland as much as he can so that Rolland can win the "Best Climber", at the Champs Elysée. Just as there is money in wearing the yellow jersey everyday, there is also a great deal of money for keeping the polka-dot jersey.
 
Proud_Lyon said:
Perhaps you should read the statement again. I said after last years performance, he "WAS" a serious contender. Even the French thought he was going to do well, but alas no. Even with a serious knee problem, he did well last year which shows the rider has spirit. However, that was last year, which I did specify and you have obviously forgotten to read. This year, he is either having a bad Tour De France compared to last year or he has been asked by the boss of Europcar to do the job of a lieutenant; that is to say, help Pierre Rolland as much as he can so that Rolland can win the "Best Climber", at the Champs Elysée. Just as there is money in wearing the yellow jersey everyday, there is also a great deal of money for keeping the polka-dot jersey.
Click to expand...


"After last year's performance, he WAS a serious contender." No he wasn't. Voeckler never was or will be an overall threat. Sorry.
 
NM said:
"After last year's performance, he WAS a serious contender." No he wasn't. Voeckler never was or will be an overall threat. Sorry.
Click to expand...

Perhaps not, but you are trying to tell me that Froome is a better climber than Voeckler? :lol: In that case Voeckler would be laughing at you. Remember, he started the 2012 Tour De France with a knee injury and he still won the "Best Climber", award on the Champs Elysée. Imagine if he hadn't had a leg injury. Anyway, that is the past now, but this year, he is not a serious contender it seems, because he simply not in the race for either the reason stated above about being a support rider or, he is not 100% there mentally.
 
Proud_Lyon said:
Perhaps not, but you are trying to tell me that Froome is a better climber than Voeckler? :lol: In that case Voeckler would be laughing at you. Remember, he started the 2012 Tour De France with a knee injury and he still won the "Best Climber", award on the Champs Elysée. Imagine if he hadn't had a leg injury. Anyway, that is the past now, but this year, he is not a serious contender it seems, because he simply not in the race for either the reason stated above about being a support rider or, he is not 100% there mentally.
Click to expand...


The "best climber" rarely wins that award.. How long have you been following cycling PL? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just confused.
 
Voekler has done shit all this tour. Haven't heard much from him at all.

Just watching this Froome ride - Didn't Tony Martin get royally fecked up on the first day??!
He's feckin won it. What a beast!

Can't see Cadel making up more than 15mins. <- LOL, I meant 6 minutes.
 
NM said:
The "best climber" rarely wins that award.. How long have you been following cycling PL? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just confused.
Click to expand...

We know that, only the all-rounders have a great chance. All I am saying is that there is no way in this world that Froome could beat Voeckler on a hill, unless something is wrong with Voeckler. There is also a possibility that Voeckler could have had added time-trialing or sprints to his game too. It is not beyond the realms of possibilityn since Wiggins was a specialist sprinter and he somehow added climbing to his game and he somehow won. Weird.
 
Froome extending his lead after the time trial really has killed some of the interest I had in this tour. Feels a bit of a forgone conclusion now. Really hope the others that may be within touching distance put him under serious pressure when they re enter the mountains.
 
Voeckler was never a contender. The only surprise was how long he held the yellow before he could no longer keep up. And he only ever got the yellow because he was allowed to. Because no one feared him.
 
He was the random guy that got the yellow jersey after a big break away during the last tour before the big guns started to come into play? I would hardly say that he was ever a contender. I actually remember all the talk about how many days he could hold onto the jersey for, no one thought for a minute that he could actually win the tour
 
B20 said:
Voeckler was never a contender. The only surprise was how long he held the yellow before he could no longer keep up. And he only ever got the yellow because he was allowed to. Because no one feared him.
Click to expand...

Exactly! I like him because he made the race interesting, but he was never going to be a threat to the big boys.
 
Looking at the Cavendish incident I thought the Veeler was just as at fault by intentionally blocking Cavendish's path. Pretty sure Veelers was attempting to protect Kittel's back wheel. He has a look where Cavendish is going starts drifting that way and then veers into his path. Cavendish foolishly attempted to cut in front of him But by then the gap had gone. To be honest I'm not sure what rules they have in place for this sort of thing because the sprinters change course so often.
 
tbh I am pleasantly surprised we don't have more nasty crashes in the bunch sprints
 
Dargonk said:
Froome extending his lead after the time trial really has killed some of the interest I had in this tour. Feels a bit of a forgone conclusion now. Really hope the others that may be within touching distance put him under serious pressure when they re enter the mountains.
Click to expand...

Why is it a foregone conclusion though? He is only 3 minutes ahead, and there is a possibility that Valverde is the main rider for movistar so, the likes of Quintana will probably accelerate the peloton on Mont Ventoux and make sure Richie Porte is no longer near Froome. This will also keep Valverde in the peloton and then they will probably mount an attack that could leave Froome well behind. It is quite easy to reduce a gap of 3 minutes on a climb, especially Mont Ventoux. It takes roughly 59 minutes to attack Mont Ventoux for those who have done it before and Froome has never climbed Mont Ventoux before so, it will be a test of his patience and courage. One hour going up at 7.9% will make the best crack in the end.

Bestie07 said:
Really hope one of Contador, Quintana or Valverde mount a serious attack on the Ventoux. Will make the final week as exciting as it looks like it can be.
Click to expand...

He will help Valverde up Mont Ventoux, it is his job.
 
Just seen yesterdays sprint at the end. It was a close thing at the line, but Kittel absolutely flew past Cavendish like he wasn't there. Cavendish is fast, but this guy really is something else. It seems as though that the last stage to Paris isn't written on the wall as everyone thinks. Kittel has done brilliantly in this Tour and I hope he wins the best stage of the race.
 
He's amazing. Cav almost looked up as if to say "You are absolutely fecking kidding me?...." :lol: the look on his face was great.
 
Proud_Lyon said:
Which brings us back to the Eddy Merckx was he or wasn't he doping on a regular basis?
Click to expand...

He probably was. The use of doping in those days is actually pretty well known and documented. Throughout the peleton, riders were being given pills by their team directors and doctors. The riders would often not even know what they were swallowing. These 'supplements' would usually contain amfetamines, next to more innocent stuff such as caffein. These amphetamines would allow the riders to numb the pain and fatigue and go a bit further maybe than they would have otherwise. But it didn't really make them ride much faster than they would without the doping.

I've said it before, doping pre-89 is incomparable with the doping of the last 25 years. EPO could make a racehorse out of a donkey. What they used in the 50s-80s didn't have that much effect.

And as far as Froome is concerned, we should wait till after this Tour ends and then look at the data that is available. I really expect a serious difference to what was observed during the Armstrong years.
 
Proud_Lyon said:
Why is it a foregone conclusion though? He is only 3 minutes ahead, and there is a possibility that Valverde is the main rider for movistar so, the likes of Quintana will probably accelerate the peloton on Mont Ventoux and make sure Richie Porte is no longer near Froome. This will also keep Valverde in the peloton and then they will probably mount an attack that could leave Froome well behind. It is quite easy to reduce a gap of 3 minutes on a climb, especially Mont Ventoux. It takes roughly 59 minutes to attack Mont Ventoux for those who have done it before and Froome has never climbed Mont Ventoux before so, it will be a test of his patience and courage. One hour going up at 7.9% will make the best crack in the end.
Click to expand...

Can you honestly see Froome losing 3 minutes from here on in?? There's still one more time trial left and he'll increase his gap by at least another minute in that. The alps will be tough but he proved in last year's tour that he's a fantastic climber and I can't see him losing more than a few seconds here and there. In all likelihood he'll extend his lead if anything over the next week or so
 
Proud_Lyon said:
For me, Quintana has been an inspiration, a breath of fresh air on this Tour De France. However, you have left one cyclist out of the list, and it is not your fault either. Suffice to say, for me, he is a pretty good rider; his name being Thomas Voeckler. He is a brilliant rider and he did well to keep the yellow jersey for a long period of time which suggests he was a serious contender (last year I think), yet this year he really has dropped off the pace. Is it simply that the likes of Froome have got better, or have the likes of Contador, Schleck, Evans and Voeckler just having a really bad tour? I am swinging towards the latter. It is not that Froome is great, it is simply because the serious contenders for this years Tour have not turned up and by the looks of it, don't feel motivated either. That is the impression that I am getting. An old Contador would have forced the race in the mountains yet he has done nothing, same with Evans or Voeckler.
Click to expand...

You seem to be quite the fan of Voeckler. I like to see him ride because he's an attacking cyclists. And while he's a very good allround rider, he's not in the same league as Contador, Schleck, Froome, etc in the mountains. He simply isn't a real climber. The yellow jersey he held a few years ago gave him wings, but that was actually the only Tour he could follow the real climbers in the mountains. I'm actually not sure what your point is with Voeckler. He participated in 10 Tours and only made the top 50 three times. (4th, 26th and 18th)
 
Well there you go. Valverde struggling after a tyre problem. If the gap remains then it's definitely race over
 
Cavendish been taken out of the Dutch Boxmeer race:
"Simply put, we find his actions not very good. The jury may think he is not responsible for the fall of Tom Veelers – we absolutely believe otherwise."
I looked at the incident again and I think they are way off. Veelers was just as guilty if not more so. Veelers started to peel off left and then saw Cav going right so then he changed course and drifted right with his head down. Very dangerous. Cav did cut over too soon though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.