Top 4 race 2016/17

Dumbstar said:
The real question is does Mourinho have the bottle to try to take three points against us? Those three points will actually be worth 6 points if so. Another bore draw will basically mean you've effectively dropped 4 points against us. Just imagine if Mourinho had had more courage when he came to Anfield. Take those points and be 1 behind us or maybe even ahead of us by now.

The PL is all about bottle and Ferguson had it in spades. He who dared, won.
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I think the Anfield game came at a time at a when we struggling.

In the month before we were beat by City, Feyenoord and Watford, squeaked by past Zorya 1-0 and drew with Stoke (both at home). A 4-1 Leicester win is in there but looking at what came before and after, it was a bit of an anomaly.

Liverpool were on a tear at the time winning their last five games and were well rested with no European football. Although I didn't like it, Jose was probably right to be cautious but I wouldn't expect the same game plan at OT.
 
Treble said:
Anyway, I think that if Spurs had Kane in all games and had Costa been out for 2 months, Spurs would have been at least 2nd and Chelsea probably 5th.
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Sorry, but this hypothetical talk is dead end, as there is nothing we can use to support our side of opinion. Tottenham had transfer window as everyone to prepare for bad scenario, and they spent plenty of time penny picking on Janssen.

We can't wish (opponent) players getting injury here, so why discussing matter of injury (free) here?
 
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Dumbstar said:
One header from Ibrahimovic does not constitute 'almost winning the match'. In that case he who didn't dare...now sits 7 points behind scratching his head.

Honestly, Ferguon will be turning in his bedsheets with that sort of ambition.
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It does though - in a game where chances are hard to come by, one chance or error is more than enough to take all 3 points (Check :Gerard Slip). And the second part is absolute non sense. In my entire life time, I have only seen once where we were so comfortable at Anfield and that was when we won 2-1 under LVG. Ferguson always gets it right at home but Liverpool away has always been tough even under him.

we are 7 points behind you not because we didn't attack Liverpool but we failed to capitalize our home domination against smaller sides.
 
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MannyB said:
I think the Anfield game came at a time at a when we struggling.

In the month before we were beat by City, Feyenoord and Watford, squeaked by past Zorya 1-0 and drew with Stoke (both at home). A 4-1 Leicester win is in there but looking at what came before and after, it was a bit of an anomaly.

Liverpool were on a tear at the time winning their last five games and were well rested with no European football. Although I didn't like it, Jose was probably right to be cautious but I wouldn't expect the same game plan at OT.
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So a manager struggling to win games saw a better opponent and accepting their superiority, played accordingly. Nothing wrong with accepting that, lots of PL teams think the same way. Now the same team is playing at home and is playing a little better so may play a bit more openly. Lots of PL teams do that too. Remains to be seen how much is risked but we'll only know on the day.
 
Dumbstar said:
The real question is does Mourinho have the bottle to try to take three points against us? Those three points will actually be worth 6 points if so. Another bore draw will basically mean you've effectively dropped 4 points against us. Just imagine if Mourinho had had more courage when he came to Anfield. Take those points and be 1 behind us or maybe even ahead of us by now.

The PL is all about bottle and Ferguson had it in spades. He who dared, won.
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You should be asking yourself why Klopp didn't try to win the game.

Never seen a home Liverpool team so negative against us. Barely out of your own half for 60 minutes.

Not trying to win home games is incredibly damaging to title bids.
 
Kraftwerker said:
You should be asking yourself why Klopp didn't try to win the game.

Never seen a home Liverpool team so negative against us. Barely out of your own half for 60 minutes.

Not trying to win home games is incredibly damaging to title bids.
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We weren't thinking of, and still are not thinking of, a title bid. Clubs that spend ridiculous amounts of net money in summer sprees think of title bids. Or at least I used to think that. Maybe under Ferguson they did. :wenger:
 
Dumbstar said:
We weren't thinking of, and still are not thinking of, a title bid. Clubs that spend ridiculous amounts of net money in summer sprees think of title bids. Or at least I used to think that. Maybe under Ferguson they did. :wenger:
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Of course you were. It's what you do.

Title contenders try to win their home games though.

United are not currently competing for the title but we'll show far more intent to win our home game against you than you did us.
 
Dumbstar said:
One header from Ibrahimovic does not constitute 'almost winning the match'. In that case he who didn't dare...now sits 7 points behind scratching his head.

Honestly, Ferguon will be turning in his bedsheets with that sort of ambition.
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The same Ferguson that sat back when we played at Anfield most times, especially in the latter years, that's the Ferguson you're referring to?
 
Kraftwerker said:
Of course you were. It's what you do.

Title contenders try to win their home games though.

United are not currently competing for the title but we'll show far more intent to win our home game against you than you did us.
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You are, and have been for years, a really bad wind up merchant.
 
Doesn't Wenger's contract finish at the end of the season and I think there's been some rumours he might step down if it keeps going shit? After the two losses the wenger out brigade will be coming out and hopefully getting the signs back out

The uncertainty over Wenger might lead to a
dodgy second half of the season

Shame we didnt manage to beat them. Would have been 1 point behind them
 
Attila said:
Doesn't Wenger's contract finish at the end of the season and I think there's been some rumours he might step down if it keeps going shit? After the two losses the wenger out brigade will be coming out and hopefully getting the signs back out

The uncertainty over Wenger might lead to a
dodgy second half of the season

Shame we didnt manage to beat them. Would have been 1 point behind them
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The issue with Arsenal, from our perspective, is that they excel at winning routine games.
 
ti vu said:
Sorry, but this hypothetical talk is dead end, as there is nothing we can use to support our side of opinion. Tottenham had transfer window as everyone to prepare for bad scenario, and they spent plenty of time penny picking on Janssen.

We can't wish (opponent) players getting injury here, so why discussing matter of injury (free) here?
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Counterfactual reasoning plays an important role in everyday life and science and this alone shows that it isn't groundless at all. It is common sense that some players are more important than other players, thus their absence is likely to influence the performances of the team negatively.
 
ti vu said:
Sorry, but this hypothetical talk is dead end, as there is nothing we can use to support our side of opinion. Tottenham had transfer window as everyone to prepare for bad scenario, and they spent plenty of time penny picking on Janssen.

We can't wish (opponent) players getting injury here, so why discussing matter of injury (free) here?
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You don't think that having our 1st choice goalkeeper, best defender, best midfielder and best striker all out for significant periods of time (as well as obviously many other players) has had an impact at all?

I imagine if Courtois, Luiz? I guess, Hazard and Costa were injured for bits of the season, Chelsea may have found things slightly more difficult. Its probably why these players are first choice and the ones behind them....aren't?

As for fixtures, we've played most of the top 10 away now so have them to come to WHL (where we've barely dropped points so far this season). And I'd rather have Crystal Palace and Swansea away still to play than Man Utd and Chelsea for example.


I don't even know how to begin to call this tbh. I found it a bit ridiculous when loads of you were panicking a few weeks ago because its a difficult league to bunch up wins in and the top teams were clumped together. So a win against us and two losses in a row from Arsenal and suddenly, you're very much in reach. All 5 are good teams with different strengths and weaknesses. Will be very interesting to see how the season pans out.
 
africanspur said:
You don't think that having our 1st choice goalkeeper, best defender, best midfielder and best striker all out for significant periods of time (as well as obviously many other players) has had an impact at all?

I imagine if Courtois, Luiz? I guess, Hazard and Costa were injured for bits of the season, Chelsea may have found things slightly more difficult. Its probably why these players are first choice and the ones behind them....aren't?

As for fixtures, we've played most of the top 10 away now so have them to come to WHL (where we've barely dropped points so far this season). And I'd rather have Crystal Palace and Swansea away still to play than Man Utd and Chelsea for example.


I don't even know how to begin to call this tbh. I found it a bit ridiculous when loads of you were panicking a few weeks ago because its a difficult league to bunch up wins in and the top teams were clumped together. So a win against us and two losses in a row from Arsenal and suddenly, you're very much in reach. All 5 are good teams with different strengths and weaknesses. Will be very interesting to see how the season pans out.
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Not my point. The thing is the counterfactual thing @Treble doing there is not applicable for this instance. Costa wanted out all summer but Conte & Chelsea recognized his importance. They actively searched for a back up forward, bought that Belgium guy but was keen on even taking Morata at some point. Good thing is Costa didn't get injury, but they actively prepared for the bad scenario.

In the other hand, Tottenham spent all summer for Janssen, knowing full well Kane has played too much football in the last 2 years, and maybe overloaded at some point especially for the style Poch used, let alone injury is inevitable. That's bad planning right there not checking for another proven player while conveniently ignoring the clear sign of a slowed down/ burnt out Kane since the run in of last season until now? Hypothesize about a injury free & top form Kane after that much of nonstop football is borderline wishful thinking.

Too many kneejerk on here I give you that. But then there is still rational people who were positive about our performance back then. With the reachable gap to 4th of course another kneejerk is expected. Like you said, this season is very interesting, not the time to draw any conclusion yet.
 
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africanspur said:
You don't think that having our 1st choice goalkeeper, best defender, best midfielder and best striker all out for significant periods of time (as well as obviously many other players) has had an impact at all?

I imagine if Courtois, Luiz? I guess, Hazard and Costa were injured for bits of the season, Chelsea may have found things slightly more difficult. Its probably why these players are first choice and the ones behind them....aren't?

As for fixtures, we've played most of the top 10 away now so have them to come to WHL (where we've barely dropped points so far this season). And I'd rather have Crystal Palace and Swansea away still to play than Man Utd and Chelsea for example.


I don't even know how to begin to call this tbh. I found it a bit ridiculous when loads of you were panicking a few weeks ago because its a difficult league to bunch up wins in and the top teams were clumped together. So a win against us and two losses in a row from Arsenal and suddenly, you're very much in reach. All 5 are good teams with different strengths and weaknesses. Will be very interesting to see how the season pans out.
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The discussion on fixtures is a pointless one, teams go through phases of being in and out of form. Also, if your last game of the season was against one of the 'big' clubs, who had nothing to play for, or Palace who needed a point to stay up, who would you rather play?

It's completely and utterly irrelevant.
 
I'm not as down on the prospect of top four as I was a few weeks ago, but I still think we need consistent title winning form between now and the end of the season to be in with a shot.

Massive ask, but less impossible than I originally thought. Arsenal seem like the weakest link to jump ahead of, but they just seem magnetised to those top four spots every year...
 
In a weekend where a juicy Xmas bonus was anticipated, it seems Utd got the bare minimum amount. Arsenal losing helped nobody really.
 
Dumbstar said:
In a weekend where a juicy Xmas bonus was anticipated, it seems Utd got the bare minimum amount. Arsenal losing helped nobody really.
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Dunno, I think Arsenal Fan TV brought everyone some festive cheer...
 
Dumbstar said:
In a weekend where a juicy Xmas bonus was anticipated, it seems Utd got the bare minimum amount. Arsenal losing helped nobody really.
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Why not? Arsenal losing does consolidate your fight for the top 4 position, doesn't it?
 
Hemil said:
Why not? Arsenal losing does consolidate your fight for the top 4 position, doesn't it?
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I'd rather a draw first and then City losing before the Arsenal result. Because Arsenal will always finish top four as sure as they won't win the league come May. City on the other hand falling further behind would have been better. Even from an outside shot it's a not so great a result for Chelsea as City are now still in with a shot when really you'd rather have Arsenal who would hand you the league on a plate (no bottles though). :)

So the worst of the three possible outcomes. I'm sure Utd and Spurs fans think exactly the same.
 
Kraftwerker is definitely not a WUM. He's just lost since Ferguson left and is trying to make sense in this post apocalyptic world. In a way I pity him as I remember the days after Dalglish MK1.

I would say I see Kraftwerker as the future Dumpstar in times to come. :)
 
Dumbstar said:
I'd rather a draw first and then City losing before the Arsenal result. Because Arsenal will always finish top four as sure as they won't win the league come May. City on the other hand falling further behind would have been better. Even from an outside shot it's a not so great a result for Chelsea as City are now still in with a shot when really you'd rather have Arsenal who would hand you the league on a plate (no bottles though). :)

So the worst of the three possible outcomes. I'm sure Utd and Spurs fans think exactly the same.
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From my point of view, I feel Arsenal are stronger than City right now in PL. City have still not adjusted well to PL and will have drop a lot of points. Arsenal have clear fixtures now and should win them all. Hence, Arsenal dropping points should be better for all including us, Liverpool and Utd.
 
Dumbstar said:
The real question is does Mourinho have the bottle to try to take three points against us? Those three points will actually be worth 6 points if so. Another bore draw will basically mean you've effectively dropped 4 points against us. Just imagine if Mourinho had had more courage when he came to Anfield. Take those points and be 1 behind us or maybe even ahead of us by now.

The PL is all about bottle and Ferguson had it in spades. He who dared, won.
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I think so. I can't blame Jose for doing what he did at Anfield, confidence was low at that time and for him it was most important to not lose the game as a priority. At OT the mood will hopefully be different, we've seen the progression compared to the start of the season and converting performances into wins is slowly but surely beginning to build confidence.

I expect Mourinho to do something similar against Liverpool at OT, but he will set up the counter attack more effectively. Carrick and Mkhi should increase our potency offensively and that was really our biggest flaw in the Anfield game IMO. When we got on the ball we just didn't create enough. Now the team seems to be finding that understanding (especially Zlatan and Pogba), and Utd will be much more dangerous as a result.

Don't think a draw at Anfield can ever be considered dropping 2 points, unless we absolutely dominated the game. It was a fair result for both on the occasion. Regardless, for me it's the games not won such as Stoke, Burnley and Everton that separate Utd from Liverpool, as opposed to not beating Liverpool themselves.
 
Dumbstar said:
Kraftwerker is definitely not a WUM. He's just lost since Ferguson left and is trying to make sense in this post apocalyptic world. In a way I pity him as I remember the days after Dalglish MK1.

I would say I see Kraftwerker as the future Dumpstar in times to come. :)
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The big difference is Liverpool ran out of money in the early 90s when their sugar daddy owners got shafted by the National Lottery. They then ran out of gloryhunters to support them so they never came close to catching United in terms of popularity or size. Even after winning loads for around 30 years United still had higher average attendances.

United are in much better shape than Liverpool were in the early 90s. There is a magic about United than Liverpool just never had.
 
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We've also not beaten Burnley, Southampton and Bournemouth. These games happen in the PL. It's not just Utd that have come away from other games wondering how they didn't win.
 
Dumbstar said:
We've also not beaten Burnley, Southampton and Bournemouth. These games happen in the PL. It's not just Utd that have come away from other games wondering how they didn't win.
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I agree but its unfair to accuse Jose of 'lacking bottle' for not beating Liverpool under the circumstances he was under at that time. The point it's not just that 1 game that's the difference, other games could've been. Like you say you have also not won games you probably should've and that would put you closer to or above Chelsea.

As for what he does at OT, we will have to wait and see. I just don't think that game at Anfield can be considered 2 points dropped though.
 
Dumbstar said:
In a weekend where a juicy Xmas bonus was anticipated, it seems Utd got the bare minimum amount. Arsenal losing helped nobody really.
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We were 10 points behind Arsenal with a difficult game v Spurs and tricky fixtures away to Palace and West Brom to come. Win our next two very winnable games and we are guaranteed to be either within 4 off City or 4 off Liverpool.
December was always going to be a huge month for our season.
 
PickledRed said:
Digging a win out in an intense local derby where quality takes a back seat to passion. Probably Liverpool's best win of the season and the result that suggests strong character. It's these wins that count. Really count.
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The results is the only thing that matters. We do all agree about this. But you were still far from impressive. You are a team who rely a lot on their physical condition, as your style of play is very aggressive and fast.
 
Dumbstar said:
Kraftwerker is definitely not a WUM. He's just lost since Ferguson left and is trying to make sense in this post apocalyptic world. In a way I pity him as I remember the days after Dalglish MK1.

I would say I see Kraftwerker as the future Dumpstar in times to come. :)
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Unless I get diagnosed with some severe mental impairment and decide to spend every waking hour on a Liverpool website, I think I'm pretty safe from becoming you.

Unless United decide to halve the size of their stadium, cancel all commercial and sponsorship deals, and start behaving like a small-time parochial club, then they're pretty safe from becoming Liverpool.
 
Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87 said:
The results is the only thing that matters. We do all agree about this. But you were still far from impressive. You are a team who rely a lot on their physical condition, as your style of play is very aggressive and fast.
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Indeed, physical condition is key hence a 94th minute winner with Everton dead on their feet.
 
Kraftwerker said:
Unless I get diagnosed with some severe mental impairment and decide to spend every waking hour on a Liverpool website, I think I'm pretty safe from becoming you.

Unless United decide to halve the size of their stadium, cancel all commercial and sponsorship deals, and start behaving like a small-time parochial club, then they're pretty safe from becoming Liverpool.
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Well you were all celebrating performances for a while this season so that's a start.
 
PickledRed said:
Well you were all celebrating performances for a while this season so that's a start.
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Eh?

There's a difference between thinking a performance was good despite the poor result and actually celebrating the poor result.

I can only think of one team recently who celebrated drawing at home...

We'll know we're proper f*cked when our players start doing Klinsmanns in front of the Stretford End after a 2-2 draw against WBA.
 
Kraftwerker said:
Eh?

There's a difference between thinking a performance was good despite the poor result and actually celebrating the poor result.

I can only think of one team recently who celebrated drawing at home...

We'll know we're proper f*cked when our players start doing Klinsmanns in front of the Stretford End after a 2-2 draw against WBA.
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I've just been reading how great a side that draws consecutive games are playing wonderful football. It seemed to become the prevailing talking point rather than an inability to get over the line.

Anyway Krafty, you're working very hard today to dampen Liverpool positivity - keep going, it's lovely to read. Usually means Liverpool are doing well.
 
PickledRed said:
I've just been reading how great a side that draws consecutive games are playing wonderful football. It seemed to become the prevailing talking point rather than an inability to get over the line.

Anyway Krafty, you're working very hard today to dampen Liverpool positivity - keep going, it's lovely to read. Usually means Liverpool are doing well.
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Well we certainly wouldn't see you here if Liverpool were doing shit. You're the new njred - appears when Liverpool win.

I suppose doing well is relative. A few months ago your team was playing well and you were talking about a title challenge, now your team's playing poorly and you're camped out in the top 4 race thread. More false dawns than the dark side of the moon.
 
Kraftwerker said:
Well we certainly wouldn't see you here if Liverpool were doing shit. You're the new njred - appears when Liverpool win.

I suppose doing well is relative. A few months ago your team was playing well and you were talking about a title challenge, now your team's playing poorly and you're camped out in the top 4 race thread. More false dawns than the dark side of the moon.
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I've not ruled Liverpool out of either top 4 or the title - it's December.

I guess I do appear when Liverpool win, pretty regular this season. For purposes of balance and full disclosure here's me appearing immediately after a defeat to United: https://www.redcafe.net/matches/liverpool-vs-manchester-united.35/discussion?page=91#post-17266060
 
PickledRed said:
I've not ruled Liverpool out of either top 4 or the title - it's December.

I guess I do appear when Liverpool win, pretty regular this season. For purposes of balance and full disclosure here's me appearing immediately after a defeat to United: https://www.redcafe.net/matches/liverpool-vs-manchester-united.35/discussion?page=91#post-17266060
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Pffft you're fooling no one with that token post. Looking at that thread it's a microcosm of your life on RedCafe. About 40 posts preceding the match turgidly talking up Liverpool, doing the positive PR spin, biting on every slight criticism... then a whimpering exit and a slither under your rock post-defeat.

Nice try though!
 
That was a great result for Liverpool and the timing of the goal was very disappointing to the rest of us looking for a CL place.
 
Kraftwerker said:
Pffft you're fooling no one with that token post. Looking at that thread it's a microcosm of your life on RedCafe. About 40 posts preceding the match turgidly talking up Liverpool, doing the positive PR spin, biting on every slight criticism... then a whimpering exit and a slither under your rock post-defeat.

Nice try though!
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Right, but I did appear. Anyway, Liverpool are very good though aren't they?
 
Kraftwerker said:
Pffft you're fooling no one with that token post. Looking at that thread it's a microcosm of your life on RedCafe. About 40 posts preceding the match turgidly talking up Liverpool, doing the positive PR spin, biting on every slight criticism... then a whimpering exit and a slither under your rock post-defeat.

Nice try though!
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Yeah but at least he came on. That's all he claimed to have done and it's what he did do.

I wouldn't agree with your claim that they are "playing poorly". They totally dominated Everton in 2nd half last night and definitely deserved to win. They were excellent also against a dogged Middlesbrough. They may not be as fluid as they were pre-Coutinho injury but their record has kept them in 2nd so I won't sniff at that. We'll be doing very well to overhaul a 7 point gap.

Anyone claiming we'll do it easily is arroganthe in the extreme imo.
 
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