A more than fair point.
Toni Kroos | Retired
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Retiree representative, and overachiever in that, as always.
You require a high level of IQ to understand Kroos’ dogwhistling
Iv’e seen Toni Kroos say worse things than this before.
This. I’ve read him say he is un-ironically a huge fan of Robbie Williams.
I actually alluded to the opposite earlier. I don't Kroos has much authority on the topic. But it's typical caf nonsense to pass judgment based on a few translated quotes on Twitter. In particular after demanding that people don't speak about stuff they don't know anything about.
Insofar I remember, Kroos was largely okay with the mass migration to Germany and spoke in favour of their integration a few years ago.
This feeling of unsafety is in large part also a product of social media and sadly too many people don't seem to realize this. Nowadays basically every news story and crime will be pushed right into your face whereas >15 years ago you had to actively seek out the news. Sadly this is weaponized by far right populist like the AFD who want to make it appear that Germany of the past was this crime free wonderland when in fact the opposite is true.
Btw doesn't Spain have a big problem with violence against women? I'm pretty sure I read something about that.
Btw doesn't Spain have a big problem with violence against women? I'm pretty sure I read something about that.
It probably also has to do with Kroos' sources being family members in Germany which likely refers to his parents. And with all due respect, I doubt that they have been going out a late past 23 in big German cities. Worth noting by the way that Kroos family stems from Greifswald which is far into the east of Germany. Within that demographic segment, these views are probably the most open minded you can expect.
Don't want to turn this thread into a debate of basic political beliefs but I'm far from having socialistic views. In its core, democracy is about fairness and equality and I believe that this principle means that one's wealth should reflect the value you've created for society, and since this idea revolves around the concept of property, I guess I'm a liberal/capitalist at heart. The issue is rather that the market mechanism isn't working out in the slightest because information and education are inequally distributed and public goods like environmental health aren't accounted for correctly. And if you try to reallocate the wealth, especially sustainably (maximum salaries as multiples of lowest salaries, inheritance taxes, graduated capital gain taxes, higher investments in education, basic incomes, ...) politicians will just point out that this wouldn't be feasible as the rich would just take their companies to another country where the public is more grateful for being exploited. So they rather turn the poor against each other ("all the lazy leftists ever demand are taxes and wealth without having to work") and watch them envy each other for the scraps they acquired. And I wonder, can you still call something so macabre and injust "democratic"?
Don't want to turn this thread into a debate of basic political beliefs but I'm far from having socialistic views. In its core, democracy is about fairness and equality and I believe that this principle means that one's wealth should reflect the value you've created for society, and since this idea revolves around the concept of property, I guess I'm a liberal/capitalist at heart. The issue is rather that the market mechanism isn't working out in the slightest because information and education are inequally distributed and public goods like environmental health aren't accounted for correctly. And if you try to reallocate the wealth, especially sustainably (maximum salaries as multiples of lowest salaries, inheritance taxes, graduated capital gain taxes, higher investments in education, basic incomes, ...) politicians will just point out that this wouldn't be feasible as the rich would just take their companies to another country where the public is more grateful for being exploited. So they rather turn the poor against each other ("all the lazy leftists ever demand are taxes and wealth without having to work") and watch them envy each other for the scraps they acquired. And I wonder, can you still call something so macabre and injust "democratic"?
100% of people speak about things they know nothing about, happens all the time.
Its just opinions, its not gospel or anything.
Ok, now Toni crossed the line.
Cancel him immediately!
Didn't necessarily have the fairytale ending we were hoping for with him coming back for the tournament, but where does he rank all time in terms of German central midfielders?
Don't think anyone would put him in front of Matthaus but what about Schweinsteiger, Ballack, Netzer, Schuster, Overath? I already know what @Zehner will say so I'm not asking you
It's difficult to split club career with national career because obviously with his club career he outshines pretty much every German player in history, let alone midfielder, but for the national team I don't think his performances are at the level of Ballack and Schweinsteiger (amongst the players I've seen). Ballack and Basti never had the club success Kroos had but then again Kroos was in a much better situation than they ever were where he played with one of the greatest players of all time and one of the greatest midfielders as his running mate, neither Ballack or Schweinsteiger had anywhere close to that support.
Don't think anyone would put him in front of Matthaus but what about Schweinsteiger, Ballack, Netzer, Schuster, Overath? I already know what @Zehner will say so I'm not asking you
It's difficult to split club career with national career because obviously with his club career he outshines pretty much every German player in history, let alone midfielder, but for the national team I don't think his performances are at the level of Ballack and Schweinsteiger (amongst the players I've seen). Ballack and Basti never had the club success Kroos had but then again Kroos was in a much better situation than they ever were where he played with one of the greatest players of all time and one of the greatest midfielders as his running mate, neither Ballack or Schweinsteiger had anywhere close to that support.
Don't think anyone would put him in front of Matthaus but what about Schweinsteiger, Ballack, Netzer, Schuster, Overath? I already know what @Zehner will say so I'm not asking you
There is one person at the very least, he's called Lothar Matthäus
The fact that he said that would mean it's not true
Ah
So I was right, but you take issue with the fact I was passing a - correct! - judgement because I didn't read/hear the whole thing in German. On a quite problematic interview talking - badly - about a sensitive social issue, involving the repeated use of dogwhistles. That about it? Do me a favour and put me on ignore
There is no clear right and wrong in his interview, the host steered the conversation towards migration, with a negative spin and Kroos made some vague statements, that could mean a whole lot of things, some interpretations racist, some of them not. But he was never prompted to clarify, so we don't know how he meant them.
But luckily we have the redcafe analytical squad, who read some quotes on Twitter to clear everything up for us.
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Germany has undergone a surge of violent crime though?
A large part of it is obviously the end of lockdowns but still there has been an increase compared to the past.
A large part of it is obviously the end of lockdowns but still there has been an increase compared to the past.
Matthaus can stake a claim to the all time XI so he's definitely at the top but otherwise he has to be second, for his club career alone.Didn't necessarily have the fairytale ending we were hoping for with him coming back for the tournament, but where does he rank all time in terms of German central midfielders?
Don't think anyone would put him in front of Matthaus but what about Schweinsteiger, Ballack, Netzer, Schuster, Overath? I already know what @Zehner will say so I'm not asking you
It's difficult to split club career with national career because obviously with his club career he outshines pretty much every German player in history, let alone midfielder, but for the national team I don't think his performances are at the level of Ballack and Schweinsteiger (amongst the players I've seen). Ballack and Basti never had the club success Kroos had but then again Kroos was in a much better situation than they ever were where he played with one of the greatest players of all time and one of the greatest midfielders as his running mate, neither Ballack or Schweinsteiger had anywhere close to that support.
Didn't necessarily have the fairytale ending we were hoping for with him coming back for the tournament, but where does he rank all time in terms of German central midfielders?
Don't think anyone would put him in front of Matthaus but what about Schweinsteiger, Ballack, Netzer, Schuster, Overath? I already know what @Zehner will say so I'm not asking you
It's difficult to split club career with national career because obviously with his club career he outshines pretty much every German player in history, let alone midfielder, but for the national team I don't think his performances are at the level of Ballack and Schweinsteiger (amongst the players I've seen). Ballack and Basti never had the club success Kroos had but then again Kroos was in a much better situation than they ever were where he played with one of the greatest players of all time and one of the greatest midfielders as his running mate, neither Ballack or Schweinsteiger had anywhere close to that support.
I think Kroos was the best midfielder in the 2014 World Cup they won, he was superb. He was good in Euro 2016 too, but had more 'bad' days than Ballack and Schweinsteiger after that. Had a great moment against Sweden at the 2018 World Cup but not as good overall and Euro 2020 I don't think he was too good.
I think on the second bolded point, the lack of quality around him helped Ballack in 2002, it can have the other effect where if you have a lot of talent around you, you stand out less. Ballack was so much better than those around him then. Kroos would have been too in 2002, although his style was less aggressive offensively.
As it's virtually impossible to avoid a thread on here that hasn't been derailed by certain political views, I'll say well done Toni on getting the far left foaming at the mouth yet again although obviously it doesn't take much to do. Personally, I'll remember you as a sublime footballer and think about what could have been. What a player.
The part about sticking out in a bad team is true, especially for Ballack over his years at Germany. But, especially for his later years, it wasn't sticking out for a team that was doing horribly, which is why he would held in very high regards. His Germany teams went to two finals and a semi final over 6 years, they only failed in one competition (Euro 2004) and ironically he was in the team of the tournament eventually even though they got knocked out of the group stage. Contrast that with Germany disappointing a lot with a similar squad (I don't want to say better because I do rate players from the 2006-08 teams) at multiple tournaments with Kroos the leader in midfield, after Schweinsteiger left.
For 2014, Kroos was great but I still think Schweinsteiger was more important to the team. He was injured for the start of the tournament and we did start off a bit inconsistent. When Schweinsteiger was starting we looked more controlled (bar the crazy tactics in the Algeria game). Then there is the amazing final performance, while Kroos was a bit poor.
You talk so much sense there but your verdict to be a "liberal/capitalist by heart" just doesn't add up. You'd obviously want to relocate wealth, that's not liberalism/capitalism. In capitalism information and education have never been distributed equally and they never will. Education may have become more attainable because capitalist societies needed better educated workers. But ultimately you will need a big mass of those upon which you can build your wealth on. The classic workers and increasingly the uninformed customers who are working in jobs irrelevant for the community, so they can buy trashy mass goods that destroy our environment and climate.
In my book, you're held back by the concept of property. In a classless society you'd still have a home, a car (electric of course), whatever you need. You'd just wouldn't be able to own the means of production. You may feel that this is a loss of freedom, but instead most of us would gain scope while the few rich would lose their power.
There is only one answer to your last question. And I think that, actually, you know the answer. We don't live in a democratic system. A capitalist system can't be democratic. Even if you think communism can't work, capitalism doesn't either. And it will lead us to men-made mass extinction.
Well, I shouldn't derail the thread too much, so: Kroos can play some ball, can't he?
This "far right" occupies like 80% of the political spectrum, no? Maybe you should start calling it "non-far left".
If you don't like the fact, that the antifascist consensus in Germany and the so-called west in general rapidly erodes, you maybe shouldn't let stupid shit-for-brains with much influence but no sense for the reality of the common people off the hook too easily if they fall publicly for the dull stories fascists created.
Jesus Christ how is that possible?
Don't think it is related to Kroos' roots whatsoever. He has a football academy and a mansion in Cologne and would have been shocked by the 2015-16 New Year's Eve assaults in that city.
I listen to his podcast a lot and he does not come across as an AfD type at all
Disclaimer: i have not heard the interview in question. I just wanted to add that everything I've heard from Kroos so far suggests that he is against the AFD and that his heart is fundamentally in the right (pun intended) place. That's why I can't/won't believe that he harbours right-wing ideas.
The lack of "woke" and "snowflake" brought the post down a notch for me.
People write and say this stuff with a straight face
Can’t even say you’re German without getting arrested these days
He said that his views are based on his family's opinions if I'm not mistaken.
Has Toni just committed social suicide by talking about immigration?
Yes, if you dare to say that mass immigration to Europe has been anything but the social equivalent of candy cotton, you are sentenced to public spanking, butt naked.
You guys have a very livid fantasy.
Freudian slip?
In all seriousness though…I do think that we’re almost in Orwellian territory when it comes to that particular issue.
Ffs I tried to keep the thread on topic but it seems I failed.
Freudian slip?
In all seriousness though…I do think that we’re almost in Orwellian territory when it comes to that particular issue.
I just googled the meaning of 'livid' and have to say, it fits even better than 'vivid'
On a more serious note, I can't agree on your second statement. You guys pretend Kroos is getting cancelled because it would support your opinion but in reality, no such thing happened. Kroos isn't being cancelled because his opinion isn't on the extreme spectrum. If you're being cancelled because of your take on immigration, you more than likely deserved it. But I guess that's doesn't fit the narrative some folks like to tell.
I just googled the meaning of 'livid' and have to say, it fits even better than 'vivid'
I’m not one of those guys and haven’t even read his comments yet. I was commenting on the initial reaction to it.
I don’t really agree with this part, or at least I don’t fully agree. Regardless however, I have come to think that this whole issue of immigration has almost entered the realm of an Orwellian thought crime…which is dangerous for society as a whole.
Anyway, tangent over.
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Who is “you guys”, its literally just me, I speak for myself only, I and I.
There are topics I lean left on, some of them are completely unconditional, and there are topics I lean right, to me that seems normal, more people should be that way.
Regarding the fantasy comment, well, Toni is a beautiful man so you may have a point there.
I’m anti politics in general, politicians are some of the worst people in the world, the problem is humanity is hundreds years away from being able to function in a society where there is real justice and every human being takes responsibility for their action, anarchy.
Also no one should be cancelled over topics like this, whether you were sarcastic or not.
Germany is cool, we all love your cheap speed and beer and currywurst, and you folks really know how to party but its obviously an unusual place, given the history, so it sort of makes sense that certain topics are very extreme.
Thankfully I live in a place where we can still say whatever we want (not merica) and make dark jokes like its ninety nineteen fecking four and offend each other slightly, and its fine, being offended is a human experience, its part of our trip on this wee sphere sailing through space.
But, tbh we all have our red lines and triggers, to you it may be immigration, to me its cruelty to animals and violence against Women.
As for Toni Kroos, I believe he deserves a far better retirement topic that this, but it is what it is.
I still dream on what could’ve been if Moyes never got sacked and we could enjoy the Kroos - Fellaini pivot for years to come.
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The thing is, Kroos is not getting cancelled for these words. It's right wing populists who have you believing he is because it drives their narrative that they themselves are being cancelled. You don't have to agree with Kroos but if you voice your concerns in this fashion, nobody will demonise you. Well, "nobody" is exaggerated because you will always find one or two who will but it won't be a majority.
What you're (rightfully) being cancelled for by the lefts is scapegoating immigrants for problems they have nothing to do with just to deflect attention from the actual issues. You know, for example when people blame immigrants/refugees for unaffordable housing prices while wealth is distributed completely unfairly and corrupt politicians/lobbyists rip the public off billions of tax money with nobody batting an eye. Or blame sexual violence on immigrants as if European men weren't every bit as bad. As somebody said earlier, easy answers for complicated problems. Kroos didn't do that, he even pointed out how complicated that topic is. Many will not agree with what he said, which is fine, but he won't be cancelled.
Toni Kroos was a great player, but a difficult personality.
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