Yesterday's and today's game mirrored how both our best Premiership teams were taken apart in similar fashion. I would say the Premiership has a better depth of teams. Only Bayern, Barca, Real, and PSG are on different level to our teams.
Toni Kroos | Madridista
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I thought City would have given a far better account but that was cruise control from Barca, I guess Chelsea under Mourinho will be our leagues best bet, unless we find some miracle cure for our form.
I would think top players would force a change of direction from the coaches if warranted. Anyway, I don't think our system is draconian. A few months ago we were champions with the same system and were unlucky not to progress further in the Champions league. We were also in 3 finals of Europe with similar system in the last 5 years.
I have the film "Tower Heist" on in the background. Just as I clicked on this thread, it panned to a parade down 5th Avenue or some such iconic American boulevard. What was centre stage? Only a giant floating Kermit the frog. It's a sign. Tony's coming. Believe, my friends.
I like a good narrative as much as the next man, but this is getting a bit silly. Draconion systems?
Draconian coaching methods?
Our system isn't the same though, is it? It's become a caricature of what we once were. No discretion or guile. Just pump it wide and look for an opening or play it back to a fullback or midfielder and rinse repeat.
Where has this come from ? It's not even relative by definition really, media spin or have we come up with this ourselves.
It's the same system. The issue is in it's execution. It's been debated to death in Moyes threads.
Twelve months ago we were one of the most attractive clubs in the world, and should have been buying players of that quality for years, instead of the crap Fergie was signing. But a year is a long time in football; and now we're seventh in the table, with no hope of Champions League, playing poor football, under an inept manager, and facing a real struggle to turn things around. Why would a world class player buy a ticket for that? unless he was stuck, like Mata.
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It's a personal, albeit shared, suspicion that our coaching staff only know how to play one way. Their way isn't an inherently bad way, not for a club like Everton, but it doesn't lend itself well to a club like United.
I don't know what we do in training, so I can only speculate. But judging by what I've seen on the pitch I can only come to that conclusion.
Are you arguing it's down to the players rather than the manager?
No!
It's a combination of factors. It's far too simplistic to blame all our failings on the manager.
Oh god the Kroos threads not even safe.
Anyway, there's a thread in the United forum to discuss Moyes.
There is? Jesus, nobody tells me anything around here.
You mean the Gerrard that went to the CL finals twice, stop talking out your ass.
I know but i don't see him being as assertive with 11 men on the pitch, Arsenal themselves weren't doing badly before the sending off.
Anyway, Kroos is awesome. Somebody should GIF that outside of the foot pass he made out to Lahm in the first half. Classy.
I don't think players see things through the gloom and doom, drama queenish fatalism of a vocal minority of fans who are pissed about Moyes. Irrespective of this year's results, United are one of the biggest clubs in the world and can attract any footballer as long as the fees are met. Some may prefer playing in Spain because of cultural/linguistic/climate issues, but the fact remains that footballers will generally play for clubs that are willing to pay them and clubs are going to sell to other clubs willing to meet their transfer valuations. We've seen this over and over again with players flocking to a mid table club like Man City, very good players going to Chelsea; plus Malaga, Monaco, Anzhi, PSG. The list goes on. If a club is willing to pay the right transfer fee and wages, the deal will happen. When the club is a global giant like United, the chances of such deal going through are even greater; especially if going forward, we are willing to spend some money for once.
The main factor for me which kills my hope is the use of Valencia. With a system that has been failing so badly when we have be so impotent because we are so dependant on a player that has no attacking contribution.
It's his job to find our weaknesses and change things up to sort it out. He's persisted with him and he's been completely void of any tactical intuition.
EDIT - maybe move this to an appropriate thread, I don't mean to pollute this one.
Kroos is the level of player Fergie should of aimed for in CM. Cleverley, Anderson, Fellaini... They are clearly not good enough. His 'rebuild' of that area post-Champions League win was practically non-existant and that was when we were the world's best side. Hopefully if not Kroos we have some players of similar ilk lined up in the summer...
You can be a parody of irony at times.
Don't get it mate.
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Oh you mean the fact i put an extra s, at the end of final by accident, yeah great joke almost as funny as your initial point.
Just because a players been to a couple of finals, dragged his team through one, can't dramatically change his history into a player that's gone toe to toe and bettered Europes elite over the whole course of a career.
The fact a player can drag a team to a CL, appear in another final in a team that wouldn't crack into the top 10 CL teams in the last 15 years, goes in his favour not against.
Scholes only has 1 more CL more than Gerrard, having played for much greater teams.
CL's are incredibly hard to get, they're not given out like freebies.
Kroos is an exceptional player, not yet better than the Gerrards or Scholes of this world though, although he can get there.
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Take the fact that Kroos is only 24, and then compare him to 24 year old Gerrard and 24 year old Scholes. He is pretty much there.
I can't stop thinking about him and Vidal in the same team. Keane and Scholes all over again.
Pirlo and Xavi at 24 were probably about the same level too. Kroos is ludicrously talented and his potential is just massive.
Ok, someone fill me in on this. Why would he leave? He's getting first team football at the best club in the world (which just happens to be the one he came through the academy of) under one of the best managers in the world.
Money, simple as that.
True it's nothing like it used to be in the old European cup days
Kroos is incredibly close to anything you could call Scholes like, he's still young but his positioning, his passing range is there, his availability off the ball and can he hit the ball ? Well
He's the type of player that draws a team together, the team aligns itself with and looks to, out of defence and into attack, and then can sit in and dictate play while the opposition tires running after the changes in play. Uniteds late winners were often born of of sheer fatigue of the opposition. Kroos is easily the best midfielder this generation if you want to win a war of attrition.
You do have a point; I may be taking too depressive a view of things. The cloud of gloom hanging over Old Trafford is obscuring the light.
The summer will tell the tale, I guess.
True it's nothing like it used to be in the old European cup days
Kroos is incredibly close to anything you could call Scholes like, he's still young but his positioning, his passing range is there, his availability off the ball and can he hit the ball ? Well
He's the type of player that draws a team together, the team aligns itself with and looks to, out of defence and into attack, and then can sit in and dictate play while the opposition tires running after the changes in play. Uniteds late winners were often born of of sheer fatigue of the opposition. Kroos is easily the best midfielder this generation if you want to win a war of attrition.
Yes he is very Scholes like, both incredible passers of the ball, and like you said have that additional threat of being able to pop out of nowhere and stick it into the back of the net. Funny though certain people call Vidal the best in the world, but similarly play down Gerrards ability(although i think thats down to club bias), there is more than one way to skin the cat. i'm not a fan of this one track mind people have in regards to midfielders these days, since the dawn of Barcelona and Guardiola.
I wouldn't say easily actually, for me Veratti is pretty close to him, as is Pogba(at least ability wise) and also can't forget Gundogan. In time the likes of Ramsey, Wilshere, Coutinho, Kovacic, Thiago, may prove to be on a similar level as well.
Can't argue with that he is, arguably the best CM in the world already.
One thing noticeable is the patience, did you see Bayern at any point try and rush the ball into the net ? They got in behind in the area on more than a few occasions but they just turned it round and played the percentage game, you need an exceptional creator to have that confidence. We never rushed it with Scholes, Gerrard was explosive, totally different, definitely not better though.
True it's nothing like it used to be in the old European cup days
Kroos is incredibly close to anything you could call Scholes like, he's still young but his positioning, his passing range is there, his availability off the ball and can he hit the ball ? Well
He's the type of player that draws a team together, the team aligns itself with and looks to, out of defence and into attack, and then can sit in and dictate play while the opposition tires running after the changes in play. Uniteds late winners were often born of of sheer fatigue of the opposition. Kroos is easily the best midfielder this generation if you want to win a war of attrition.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's a no brainer what we need to do, we need to out a financial package together that Bayern don't want to match.
If you ask any manager what he'd want if he were to take over United and succeed like Fergie did,
I think they'd reply "Paul Scholes". Well he's right there for all to see. As clear as day.
I am one argumentative git at times but I can't find fault with this idea really, he's exceptional, you don't see a player capable of controlling games in that fashion very often, I would sell all the shite and risk the house on him. Bayern won't allow his exit though, let's hope he's an adventurous type.
I've been reading Fergie's book again the last few days, just flitting back in at random points and I don't have it here to quite directly and I can't even remember his examples but he spoke of the money he had wasted on some players, it started with Milne I think at "only" £170k he then went on to say that in the early 2000's he wasted money on mediocre players basically saying you get what you pay for. (Just remembered, I think it was in Rio's chapter) He went on to say that when you pay for quality you get your money's worth and over the last few years we've repeated those mistakes again. I'm just hoping that we've learnt from them.
This summer is going to define the club for a long time. If we don't manage to secure the right quality of players we are in big trouble because we just don't have a manager capable of getting the most out of a squad.
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