Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances

[Brightonian]

You're having a laugh. I've never seen him rated as highly anywhere than on here. He was our best player last season while he was injured.

I wish that was my experience of it. I see a lot of people just waiting for every tiny insignificant error and blind to the vast majority of his football, which is excellent.

He did have a poor game against Chelsea. He gave the ball away a lot, uncharacteristically. He was then dropped for a while. He played similarly against West Ham, I recall him giving the ball away quite a bit then

91% pass completion. Ok, for him that's not great, but only Carrick was better, and for most people that's a perfectly good stat.

He and Carrick are our best midfield pairing. This, to me, is obvious.

Agreed. Shame they've barely been played together all season despite both being available throughout. I like it when we throw Anderson in there with them, the three complement each other beautifully.

 

[Decotron]

For me when it comes to Cleverley I simply go on the fact that Eric Harrison, who knows a bit about this sort of stuff, said that Tom's the best young player to come through the academy since Scholes and if he doesn't make it he'll jump in the Manchester ship canal. If, after all he's seen, Eric is that adamant that Cleverley is that good then I'm happy to jump on his bandwagon.

Me too! Glad someone quoted him correctly! I couldnt remember it...

Love when hes on MUTV. Havent seen him a while though. Fantastic bloke to listen to.

 

[charlenefan]

I think he's great, looking forward to seeing him in our first XI for years to come

 

[Crackers]

I think he's great, looking forward to seeing him in our first XI for years to come

Totally agree, the last few weeks he has come on leaps and bounds, and has really impressed me.
I've been a huge fan of his for quite some time and knew he'd do well, but seeing it actually happen is such a great sight to see.
The way he partners Carrick in midfield is a great thing to see.

 

[Rozay]

I will own up and say that I have been 'critical' of him in the past, although I don't even believe it's as extreme as that. I've been critical of his lack of authority on the pitch. I said in another thread the other day that I get the impression that he goes onto the pitch aiming to 'not do anything wrong', as opposed to imposing himself on a game and making a difference. This doesn't make him a poor player to e, I still always thought him a 'good' player, but a player that doesn't really make a difference will never really be a great one to me.

I always thought/hoped he had it in him to improve this, as I felt this was ore a mental deficit than a technical one. I was happy to see him score on Saturday, as he was very purposeful in what he was trying to do. Usually, when he has gotten chances I have got the impression that he almost didn't want them. Like, I'd found it hard to imagine him throwing his arms in the air or being furious at a teammate for not squaring the ball to him so he can shoot. He does the basics very well; gets it, gives it, but he's still appeared to be in a shell to me.

Saturday reminded me that there is potentially a lot more to come from him, and he has the potential to play a more leading role for us. I think he can go on to be as good as someone like Lampard for us, which would be a great achievement. I watched him from youth level, and he's always looked a player who has 'learned' the game as opposed to being born with it, like Jack Wilshere for instance, which is why he was never going to pull up trees at 18 in the same way- but with the right character, he can still go on to become a very good footballer.

 

[#07]

Me too! Glad someone quoted him correctly! I couldnt remember it...

Love when hes on MUTV. Havent seen him a while though. Fantastic bloke to listen to.

Just for you.



People like Eric H really should be on MUTV more. The things they've seen and done in football...

There are few people better qualified to talk about youth and potential and Eric never gobs for the sake of it. He tells it straight. You know when he runs the rule over a kid whatever he says is his genuine opinion and, 9 times out of 10, he's probably right.

I just loved when they did the sit down between Eric and Sir Alex and they spoke about the class of '92 and all the players they nurtured and watched grow.

It would be great to do a sit down piece with Eric and have him give his honest appraisal of all the young players coming through at United. Possibly MUTV wouldn't dare do a show like that cos Eric wouldn't be afraid to point out where some of the kids needed to do more work if they're going to make it but I'd be fascinated by his insight and analysis. I also wonder what he thinks of the mentality of the modern player.

Honestly with someone like him more of what he's done in his life and how he went about doing it should be committed to film. So many people could learn from what he has to say.

 

[Brightonian]

I watched him from youth level, and he's always looked a player who has 'learned' the game as opposed to being born with it, like Jack Wilshere for instance, which is why he was never going to pull up trees at 18 in the same way- but with the right character, he can still go on to become a very good footballer.

I still don't buy this at all. Wilshere is better, but that doesn't make him some sort of born genius and Cleverley a hard-working self-improver with little natural ability. If those old Harrison quotes prove anything, it's that Cleverley has always had it in him to play the sort of football he's been showing us over the last couple of seasons, it's just taken a while for it to really flower. And similarly it's not like Wilshere's the same player he was at 16.

 

[Liam147]

91% pass completion. Ok, for him that's not great, but only Carrick was better, and for most people that's a perfectly good stat.

Well I might have seen it wrong, I was there so you're not getting the same view or analysis of things, but he did get taken off fairly (just after the hour?), and I didn't think he'd played particularly well.

Just checked the ratings thread, and neither did the caf https://www.redcafe.net/f6/ratings-against-west-ham-362430/

Agreed. Shame they've barely been played together all season despite both being available throughout. I like it when we throw Anderson in there with them, the three complement each other beautifully.

I'd agree with that, but in reality, it's just not going to be our best when you're misplacing Rooney, leaving out Kagawa, not playing wingers etc.

I do love the energy and drive Cleverley and Anderson bring, but Carrick just brings tactical discipline and awareness.

 

[Platato]

I don't know if it is that.

I think it is more a case of the wider coverage on younger players (youtube and the like, streaming and televised coverage) and people think that throwing money at problems is the first and tried tested way of fixing a problem in a squad.

Every new/young player for me I look at as a 70%. Even if they are amazing they are still playing at 70% until they peak. If they peak early then it's obvious and you acknowledge but it is like a lot of the posters on this board think that 22 is your peak and if you aren't good enough by then it's curtains on your career. Also a lot of people don't seem to see past the black and white of a player and what he produces at the end of a result (of a game) and see what a player brings to the table. Passing, movement, energy, passion, finishing etc.

Boggles my mind sometimes. He was outstanding though in this Sunderland game. I saw Carrick as well having the confidence to play with him rather than just stay static and play out of the playbook which helps Cleverley a lot. A couple of times MC played a one two with him and moved into space and then a one two to keep play moving and that is something that Carrick tends to bog other players down with when he is not nearing the peak of his ability.

Hmm. Couldn't you say wider coverage potentially leads to fans making up their minds up too quickly?

Anyway good post. Nice to see more United fans pick up on what this lad can produce. Excited to see how he progresses.

 

[Platato]

Just for you.



People like Eric H really should be on MUTV more. The things they've seen and done in football...

There are few people better qualified to talk about youth and potential and Eric never gobs for the sake of it. He tells it straight. You know when he runs the rule over a kid whatever he says is his genuine opinion and, 9 times out of 10, he's probably right.

I just loved when they did the sit down between Eric and Sir Alex and they spoke about the class of '92 and all the players they nurtured and watched grow.

It would be great to do a sit down piece with Eric and have him give his honest appraisal of all the young players coming through at United. Possibly MUTV wouldn't dare do a show like that cos Eric wouldn't be afraid to point out where some of the kids needed to do more work if they're going to make it but I'd be fascinated by his insight and analysis. I also wonder what he thinks of the mentality of the modern player.

Honestly with someone like him more of what he's done in his life and how he went about doing it should be committed to film. So many people could learn from what he has to say.

I miss people like Eric. We need more people like him. Say it straight. 100% honesty. One of those who I admire for his nous on youth development. Where is he now?

 

[Platato]

I still don't buy this at all. Wilshere is better, but that doesn't make him some sort of born genius and Cleverley a hard-working self-improver with little natural ability. If those old Harrison quotes prove anything, it's that Cleverley has always had it in him to play the sort of football he's been showing us over the last couple of seasons, it's just taken a while for it to really flower. And similarly it's not like Wilshere's the same player he was at 16.

It might be a case of both. The kid learns so quick, I sometimes forget what aspect of his game is natural or not. From what I've seen, Wilshire simply expresses his talent more than Tom. That's the big thing in the UK. You've got to show your stuff. Although most football people knew Xabi Alonso was an important player for Liverpool, they couldn't really outline why. If they did, it was a quick summary but nothing elaborate.

We have a hard describing players who seemingly do their work behind the scenes. Hence, why Carrick gets so much flak even when he's not having a poor game. It's like the players with the ability to grab your attention tend to get lauded more, even if they're not doing anything. Then this sort of emotional attachment arises and well you know how male fans are when they find a man crush.

But back to the main point, right now, I take the perspective that Cleverley is fine with slowly establishing his way into the side and growing more comfortable with the role he's given. As a result, he showcases his talents less often compared to Wilshire. We saw a glimpse of what he can do on Saturday and we're all looking forward to see more. There might be games where he has less impact, but at least we know what we can do. Central midfield is a tough position and it will probably take a year or so before we see any consistency from Cleverley. Very good prospect and I think Eric Harrison is spot on in that clip.

Who is better between Tom or Jack? I don't know. Don't care. I'm not sure why others care but each to their own. I just hope they are used correctly in the England setup. I look forward to seeing them complement each other. It defintely won't be a Gerrard-Lampard () type partnership.

 

[#07]

I miss people like Eric. We need more people like him. Say it straight. 100% honesty. One of those who I admire for his nous on youth development. Where is he now?

Last I heard he was working at one of Beckham's football academies bringing young players through. Those kids couldn't hope for a better mentor, eh?

 

[Rozay]

I still don't buy this at all. Wilshere is better, but that doesn't make him some sort of born genius and Cleverley a hard-working self-improver with little natural ability. If those old Harrison quotes prove anything, it's that Cleverley has always had it in him to play the sort of football he's been showing us over the last couple of seasons, it's just taken a while for it to really flower. And similarly it's not like Wilshere's the same player he was at 16.

Nah, Wilshere has already made his Arsenal debut and looked pretty damn good in midfield at 16, while Cleverley was getting a game at left-back in our youth at a similar age.

There's nothing wrong with being a self-improver anyway. There is a clear difference between a young Cleverley and a young Giggs for instance. Regardless of what Eric Harrisson said, which for me are the sort of comments you take with a pinch of salt anyway, given the capacity in which they know each other, it was clear that people watching Clev as a kid did not think 'wow', this boy is a genius. It was 'he could ake it if he works hard'. For a start, he's 23! Not 19.

 

[Adebesi]

For people with better memories than me, how does he compare to Carrick at a similar age?

 

[Brightonian]

Who is better between Tom or Jack? I don't know. Don't care. I'm not sure why others care but each to their own. I just hope they are used correctly in the England setup. I look forward to seeing them complement each other. It defintely won't be a Gerrard-Lampard () type partnership.

I don't care, exactly, but I think it's pretty apparent that Wilshere's better. But not by much, and I agree that it's because his game is louder, so to speak, that the gap between them gets exaggerated.

They'll complement each other beautifully. The more of that sort of footballer you put together, the more exponentially the team play improves. See Barcelona for details. Those two in front of Carrick would be a superb midfield for England, especially if you surround them with players suited to that style - Rooney, Welbeck, Oxlade-Chamberlain etc. A whole different prospect to the dysfunctional gaggle of hollywood-passing stars represented by Lampard and Gerrard.

 

[#07]

Nah, Wilshere has already made his Arsenal debut and looked pretty damn good in midfield at 16, while Cleverley was getting a game at left-back in our youth at a similar age.

There's nothing wrong with being a self-improver anyway. There is a clear difference between a young Cleverley and a young Giggs for instance. Regardless of what Eric Harrisson said, which for me are the sort of comments you take with a pinch of salt anyway, given the capacity in which they know each other, it was clear that people watching Clev as a kid did not think 'wow', this boy is a genius. It was 'he could ake it if he works hard'. For a start, he's 23! Not 19.

Eric Harrison knows a lot of our kids and prospects pretty well. I genuinely don't think he'd go on record to say Cleverley is the best since Scholes if he didn't believe it. He didn't make those kind of comments about Darron Gibson, for example. Harrison's not one of these rent a quotes who you go to every time a United youngster has a decent game.

Undoubtedly Cleverley hasn't had the same route to the top flight as someone like Wilshere and maybe Wilshere is more talented? For Cleverley his struggles as a kid were in large part cos some of the coaching staff thought he was too small. We all know the story about he wasn't given a full time pro contact at 16 cos they wanted to know how he'd develop physically. It was people like Eric H who were saying give the kid a chance. Cos he's had to scratch out a career at United Clev probably has more of a rep as a grafter than a gifted kid but its not like he's without natural ability: The close control that Cleverley has is not all down to mechanical repetition (although I'd like to think it is cos that would mean anyone could learn it!)

 

[Rozay]

Eric Harrison knows a lot of our kids and prospects pretty well. I genuinely don't think he'd go on record to say Cleverley is the best since Scholes if he didn't believe it. He didn't make those kind of comments about Darron Gibson, for example. Harrison's not one of these rent a quotes who you go to every time a United youngster has a decent game.

Undoubtedly Cleverley hasn't had the same route to the top flight as someone like Wilshere and maybe Wilshere is more talented? For Cleverley his struggles as a kid were in large part cos some of the coaching staff thought he was too small. We all know the story about he wasn't given a full time pro contact at 16 cos they wanted to know how he'd develop physically. It was people like Eric H who were saying give the kid a chance. Cos he's had to scratch out a career at United Clev probably has more of a rep as a grafter than a gifted kid but its not like he's without natural ability: The close control that Cleverley has is not all down to mechanical repetition (although I'd like to think it is cos that would mean anyone could learn it!)

Fair enough if that's what you feel about Harrison, I'm not convinced myself. Easy for him to say Cleverley was a more talented kid than Ra'vel Morrison now, for instance, but if he had his head straight and was still at the club, I have my doubts.

 

[Platato]

I don't care, exactly, but I think it's pretty apparent that Wilshere's better. But not by much, and I agree that it's because his game is louder, so to speak, that the gap between them gets exaggerated.

They'll complement each other beautifully. The more of that sort of footballer you put together, the more exponentially the team play improves. See Barcelona for details. Those two in front of Carrick would be a superb midfield for England, especially if you surround them with players suited to that style - Rooney, Welbeck, Oxlade-Chamberlain etc. A whole different prospect to the dysfunctional gaggle of hollywood-passing stars represented by Lampard and Gerrard.

You mean I can actually watch England and not be bored?!?

 

[Rozay]

I don't care, exactly, but I think it's pretty apparent that Wilshere's better. But not by much, and I agree that it's because his game is louder, so to speak, that the gap between them gets exaggerated.

They'll complement each other beautifully. The more of that sort of footballer you put together, the more exponentially the team play improves. See Barcelona for details. Those two in front of Carrick would be a superb midfield for England, especially if you surround them with players suited to that style - Rooney, Welbeck, Oxlade-Chamberlain etc. A whole different prospect to the dysfunctional gaggle of hollywood-passing stars represented by Lampard and Gerrard.

One of my pet gripes when I see Oxlade referred to as some boy genius. He's physically immense, but he is more of a brute than people realise I reckon. A speedster but with a clumsy, heavy touch and an untidy technique. I can't count the amount of times I've seen him literally just run the ball straight out for a goal-kick all on his own. If you compare his control over the ball to someone like Nani for instance, the difference is huge.

In a nutshell, I believe Oxlade is grossly overrated, and in a few years when his speed/strength seems a bit more normal for his age, he will struggle I believe. Definitely can't see him being the 100+ cap England man many expect.

 

[shaggy]

One of my pet gripes when I see Oxlade referred to as some boy genius. He's physically immense, but he is more of a brute than people realise I reckon. A speedster but with a clumsy, heavy touch and an untidy technique. I can't count the amount of times I've seen him literally just run the ball straight out for a goal-kick all on his own. If you compare his control over the ball to someone like Nani for instance, the difference is huge.

In a nutshell, I believe Oxlade is grossly overrated, and in a few years when his speed/strength seems a bit more normal for his age, he will struggle I believe. Definitely can't see him being the 100+ cap England man many expect.

Sterling's comfortably the better talent IMO.

 

[Pexbo]

For people with better memories than me, how does he compare to Carrick at a similar age?

I was championing us signing Carrick a season or two before we did. I thought he was an excellent prospect with a brilliant range of passing. Difficult to compare the two, Toms style is a lot more hurried while Carrick has always been languid. I always felt Carrick probably had more quality than he actually did. He had that time on the ball that some youngsters have and I expected him to mature into a real beast but I don't think the mentality was there to do that. I think a big part of Carricks development or lack of was the Scholes factor. He was exactly the player Scholes needed next to him and as a result I think he played within himself a bit.

I think Tom has got a bit more of an ego there which will help keep him from shying away from being the main man in midfield. For what it's worth I've been very pleased with Carricks contribution at the club but after wanting him here for so long and telling everyone he was the player we needed I hoped he would be a bit more of a star.

 

[Rozay]

I was championing us signing Carrick a season or two before we did. I thought he was an excellent prospect with a brilliant range of passing. Difficult to compare the two, Toms style is a lot more hurried while Carrick has always been languid. I always felt Carrick probably had more quality than he actually did. He had that time on the ball that some youngsters have and I expected him to mature into a real beast but I don't think the mentality was there to do that. I think a big part of Carricks development or lack of was the Scholes factor. He was exactly the player Scholes needed next to him and as a result I think he played within himself a bit.

I think Tom has got a bit more of an ego there which will help keep him from shying away from being the main man in midfield. For what it's worth I've been very pleased with Carricks contribution at the club but after wanting him here for so long and telling everyone he was the player we needed I hoped he would be a bit more of a star.

Interesting, my observation is the total opposite. Clev doesn't really take ownership for me. Before Saturday for example, almost every time he's been through on goal or in a scoring chance, he barely gets a good connection on the ball. Not that he isn't technically tidy, but he seems nervous and shy. This is why he has missed so many big chances I think. At that time, I believe he'd rather not have had them in the first place.

As has been well documented, his passing has always been fairly basic to the guy next to him too.

Seems to be coming out of his shell a bit more now and taking more responsibility. Perhaps Fergie dropping Scholes for him for a run of games has made him feel more secure. Dunno.

 

[Platato]

For people with better memories than me, how does he compare to Carrick at a similar age?

Quite similar actually except Carrick's range of passing was very good back then and he also had much more mobility than he does now. He played in a box-to-box role then. IF there is one category where Cleverley betters at a similar age is movement. That doesn't mean Carrick's movement wasn't good but it definitely wasn't his standout characteristic either. You can see why SAF moved him to a more defensive role. He's always had that aspect to his game.

Not too much has changed. If I was to give an assessment, I would take Carrick simply because he showed more of his attacking qualities back then and he could also mop up if necessary. Fine margins though.

 

[Rozay]

Sterling's comfortably the better talent IMO.

Indeed. Even Zaha potentially. His next move will be crucial.

 

[ghaliboy]

Hmm. Couldn't you say wider coverage potentially leads to fans making up their minds up too quickly?

Anyway good post. Nice to see more United fans pick up on what this lad can produce. Excited to see how he progresses.

Well it is a swirling vortex of thought and idea's that has been in my head for a couple of years now (really started thinking about it when Danny Welbeck and Macheda were about to break onto the scene and Danny went on loan.)

It's a point that I don't really have a handle on articulating properly that just throwing money at a problem is the new 'lets try and get more out of this player who clearly has talent'. The fast track to success so to speak. It now transfers to fan's philosophy that simply buying new players who they think are better seems to be the new in thing rather than backing your youngsters and spotting that little bit extra and getting a kick out of the extraction process.

Re: the larger net comment I think with youtube you have a medium to view what a player does that is good that does anything of note and ignore anything bad he does or not get a real reading of his talent and ability. There are probably 20 young 'messi's' now for every 3 or 4 new Zidane's about 10 years ago. The mediums in which we view some players these days loses the scope to see a players attitude and the way a player deals with the aspect of the game behind the raw production on the field.

(of course not discriminating against people who genuinely watch a player for the entire package not YT compilations etc etc)

edit: I think I was trying to say that the wider coverage leads to fans player hopping on who they think has talent and essentially being to impatient to give a player time to develop? Maybe I am agreeing with you.

 

[Andrew~]

Cleverley seems to suffer from this especially badly:

Post-match after a good game, especially when he's not been given much playing time recently: 'Yeah, he was ok, but he's not done much this season and remember that mistake he made two years ago.'

Post-match after a bad game, regardless of how many good ones he's had before: 'Was shit, he's massively overrated, he's done nothing this season, remember that mistake he made two years ago.'

It's incredibly unfair. Fans of other clubs tend to get behind their promising players, not look for any opportunity to run them down. I've noticed that the 'he's not creative enough' crowd are nowhere to be seen after the rain of through-balls and snap passes in behind the defensive line which he produced to go with his goal on Saturday.

I'll respond since we've had this talk before. The last two games, Cleverley has been playing extremely well. And I remarked as such over the last one or two pages of this thread. No one was ever attempting to 'run Cleverley down', where do I benefit from that? If he plays really well, the team I love wins, it's all great. I like Cleverly, and I think he's a good player, I just don't view is [current] capabilities in the same light as some in this thread seem to. I'm glad to see him improving in the exact areas where I thought he was lacking, because a more effective Cleverley means a more effective United. Fantastic.

But as I said, he did well the last two games, but still has to improve his game - which thankfully he has shown an extreme willingness to do, credit to him.

 

[Plechazunga]

Interesting, my observation is the total opposite. Clev doesn't really take ownership for me. Before Saturday for example, almost every time he's been through on goal or in a scoring chance, he barely gets a good connection on the ball. Not that he isn't technically tidy, but he seems nervous and shy. This is why he has missed so many big chances I think. At that time, I believe he'd rather not have had them in the first place.

As has been well documented, his passing has always been fairly basic to the guy next to him too.

Seems to be coming out of his shell a bit more now and taking more responsibility. Perhaps Fergie dropping Scholes for him for a run of games has made him feel more secure. Dunno.

Don't agree with all those points.

He's a grafter, but he's always been a very confident lad who likes to show what he can do. Never the sort to retreat inside his shell. You might have got that impression because he's coming back from injury and maybe looked a touch more tentative because of it.

And he has an excellent range of passing.

I do agree with you about the Harrison quote. Not that Harrison's the sort to say it without meaning it, but perhaps he didn't see enough of Morrison, or perhaps that video's from a few years ago.

 

[Platato]

Don't agree with all those points.

He's a grafter, but he's always been a very confident lad who likes to show what he can do. Never the sort to retreat inside his shell. You might have got that impression because he's coming back from injury and maybe looked a touch more tentative because of it.

And he has an excellent range of passing.

I do agree with you about the Harrison quote. Not that Harrison's the sort to say it without meaning it, but perhaps he didn't see enough of Morrison, or perhaps that video's from a few years ago.

I think it was right when Cleverley burst onto the scene. So before all the Morrison hoopla. But still, Morrison was something else. If there's something Eric saw that we didn't or havent already then I'm a wee bit excited.

 

[Platato]

Well it is a swirling vortex of thought and idea's that has been in my head for a couple of years now (really started thinking about it when Danny Welbeck and Macheda were about to break onto the scene and Danny went on loan.)

It's a point that I don't really have a handle on articulating properly that just throwing money at a problem is the new 'lets try and get more out of this player who clearly has talent'. The fast track to success so to speak. It now transfers to fan's philosophy that simply buying new players who they think are better seems to be the new in thing rather than backing your youngsters and spotting that little bit extra and getting a kick out of the extraction process.

Re: the larger net comment I think with youtube you have a medium to view what a player does that is good that does anything of note and ignore anything bad he does or not get a real reading of his talent and ability. There are probably 20 young 'messi's' now for every 3 or 4 new Zidane's about 10 years ago. The mediums in which we view some players these days loses the scope to see a players attitude and the way a player deals with the aspect of the game behind the raw production on the field.

(of course not discriminating against people who genuinely watch a player for the entire package not YT compilations etc etc)

edit: I think I was trying to say that the wider coverage leads to fans player hopping on who they think has talent and essentially being to impatient to give a player time to develop? Maybe I am agreeing with you.

I think you're agreeing with me

 

[Ruud10]

Sterling's comfortably the better talent IMO.

Gotta agree with you there, shaggy, as much as it pains me to do so (not because of you, but because Sterling is a Liverpool man).

 

[Nathan]

Cleverly has loads of talent and is at that stage in his career where he should be more comfortable playing in the first team. He is a regular and by scoring the second goal on Saturday he proves that he belongs in the team.

I think all of us would like to see him mature into a scholes type of player, range of passing and scoring great goals. We need to continue to nurture his talent and allow him to progress naturally without placing any undue pressure on his young shoulders. The future is looking bright for him and he needs to be comfortable in his own skin.

 

[Crackers]

Cleverly has loads of talent and is at that stage in his career where he should be more comfortable playing in the first team. He is a regular and by scoring the second goal on Saturday he proves that he belongs in the team.

I think all of us would like to see him mature into a scholes type of player, range of passing and scoring great goals. We need to continue to nurture his talent and allow him to progress naturally without placing any undue pressure on his young shoulders. The future is looking bright for him and he needs to be comfortable in his own skin.

Good post, totally agree with you on not putting any pressure on his shoulders.
We shouldn't put any "undue" pressure that causes him to stress, but I think it is important to give him a little stress to remind him now and again why he's on the first team. He's a superb player who can only get better, but needs the time, patience and support to get there.

 

[Plechazunga]

Although as has been rightly said his mobility and energy are great, and are really bringing the best out of Carrick, I think he actually sprints a bit too much.

He needs to pick his runs more, not go haring away every time he lays the ball off. That way he won't get so knackered in the second half and find himself drifting out the game. They things will come though.

 

[Sultan]

There's a rather simple way to judge a players quality. Cleverley does not look out of his depth playing with world class players. Rafael was the same when he made his debut. Phil Neville, and Gibson look world beaters playing for Everton, yet they looked average in a United team. Fletcher looks a world beater when he plays for Scotland yet he is in on a par with other players at United.

 

[Brightonian]

Nah, Wilshere has already made his Arsenal debut and looked pretty damn good in midfield at 16, while Cleverley was getting a game at left-back in our youth at a similar age.

There's nothing wrong with being a self-improver anyway. There is a clear difference between a young Cleverley and a young Giggs for instance. Regardless of what Eric Harrisson said, which for me are the sort of comments you take with a pinch of salt anyway, given the capacity in which they know each other, it was clear that people watching Clev as a kid did not think 'wow', this boy is a genius. It was 'he could ake it if he works hard'. For a start, he's 23! Not 19.

You've missed my point.

Wilshere back then was a very different player than he is now. He had almost no physical game, and was much more of a dribbler and less of a passer. Cleverley, too, was a different sort of player. He was generally used wide, and his strength was in his intelligence and movement, and less noticeably in his passing.

Wilshere is better than Cleverley now. Wilshere was better than Cleverley at a young age. But it is absolutely not the case that one was some untrained prodigy who's been the same ever since he was 16, and the other is some mr average who worked his way to being a good player. They're both somewhere inbetween.

On a different point, the fact that Cleverley has come good later than Wilshere is not so much a reflection of ability or playing style as circumstance. Tom was tiny for his age and was held back a year because of it. United don't look to blood our youngsters nearly so early as Arsenal do. And at the time when Tom came through, United's academy had only started taking steps towards a more European model, prioritising his sort of player over the more physical, dynamic, 'loud' sorts of player.

Again, just in case it's not obvious, I'm not arguing that Cleverley is as good or better than Wilshere. I'm not saying anything about their abilities at all. I'm just saying that this fantasy that one is a natural genius and the other a hard worker is just that, fantasy.

 

[Rozay]

Don't agree with all those points.

He's a grafter, but he's always been a very confident lad who likes to show what he can do. Never the sort to retreat inside his shell. You might have got that impression because he's coming back from injury and maybe looked a touch more tentative because of it.

And he has an excellent range of passing.

I do agree with you about the Harrison quote. Not that Harrison's the sort to say it without meaning it, but perhaps he didn't see enough of Morrison, or perhaps that video's from a few years ago.

I think at the real sharp end of things he has been tentative and apologetic almost. His shooting hasn't really had any authority or belief in it. Take the one-two against Arsenal in the 8-2 as an example. The approach play was good, but the shot was scared. Of course, anyone could do that, but then it was a consistent pattern, which is why it took him a while to get his first goal for us. Generally he shot with no belief, and often when in good shooting positions, he does that thing Scholes has been doing for the past 5 years or so which is to shoot only as an absolute last resort.

Again, this isn't a question of ability and I always believed he could change it. Just that I also believed he wouldn't be anywhere near the player he could be until he does.

 

[Platato]

Rozay maybe by scared you mean overthinking? That finish against Sunderland was instinctive. I got criticism for asking if we're afraid to be ruthless. Are you trying to say Cleverley is afraid of scoring?

 

[Brightonian]

I think at the real sharp end of things he has been tentative and apologetic almost. His shooting hasn't really had any authority or belief in it. Take the one-two against Arsenal in the 8-2 as an example. The approach play was good, but the shot was scared. Of course, anyone could do that, but then it was a consistent pattern, which is why it took him a while to get his first goal for us. Generally he shot with no belief, and often when in good shooting positions, he does that thing Scholes has been doing for the past 5 years or so which is to shoot only as an absolute last resort.

Again, this isn't a question of ability and I always believed he could change it. Just that I also believed he wouldn't be anywhere near the player he could be until he does.

I sort of see what you're saying here, but for me it's just about finishing, not his general play. He's not a confident finisher at United yet (although he was during his loan spells, and we're already seeing signs that he'll soon recover that in his United form if he can get a run of games). But when in form, he's never had any problem imposing himself on the game.

In the 8-2 against Arsenal, he and Anderson ran the show fearlessly. They bulldozed the gunners, and had more teeth than we as a team have had in almost any performance since. When he came on at half-time in the Community Shield against City, he turned what had been a crumbly, apathetic performance completely on his head. He took control of a leaderless performance in a way that was more Keane than Scholes, and was pretty much the sole cause for that magnificent turn-around.

As I say, I agree about the finishing at the moment, but he definitely has it in his locker, and it'll come.

 

[Crackers]

I sort of see what you're saying here, but for me it's just about finishing, not his general play. He's not a confident finisher at United yet (although he was during his loan spells, and we're already seeing signs that he'll soon recover that in his United form if he can get a run of games). But when in form, he's never had any problem imposing himself on the game.

In the 8-2 against Arsenal, he and Anderson ran the show fearlessly. They bulldozed the gunners, and had more teeth than we as a team have had in almost any performance since. When he came on at half-time in the Community Shield against City, he turned what had been a crumbly, apathetic performance completely on his head. He took control of a leaderless performance in a way that was more Keane than Scholes, and was pretty much the sole cause for that magnificent turn-around.

As I say, I agree about the finishing at the moment, but he definitely has it in his locker, and it'll come.

I'd agree with you here.
He's fully capable of running the show and taking control "of a leaderless performance" as you put it. He's missing his finishing ability that was evident during his time at Wigan and Watford in particular.
That ability will come with time as you put it, but he needs to start taking more chances, and smashing the ball when he gets the chance.
I love how he's so particular about each of his movements and plays, but I personally think he needs to add a bit of Scholes-esque finishing to his game.

 

[Red Pavan]

Hopefully there will come a day, where Anderson and Cleverley are both fit and can start in a midfield consisting of Carrick as well.

-----Carrick----

Clev ----- Ando