Because they are two very good players?
Tom Cleverley | 2010/11 Performances (on loan at Wigan)
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Because they are two very good players?
But it's clearly not fashionable to talk up Carrick. Fashions and trends come about when they are adopted by a great number of people. A great number of people don't talk Carrick up - they deride him.
It might suddenly start working because, for the majority of his United career, Carrick has been a very good player for us who has done the business in a 4-4-2 formation on a number of occasions.
According to the Caf, the fact that his form has been poor means that his career is over. He can never regain it. Gone. Aged 29.
He will get games and at united, being exposed to playing for us will benefit him in the long run. Being apart of United, and round giggs and Scholes is very important too.
Yeah he's a nothing player. You think players can't develop that with games? He showed at watford he can 'dribble', it's outragious to say has no vision and as for his passing skills, these things improve with time. With better players, you become a better player if you have the right attitude and he seems to so maybe you should stop worrying and see what you think 10 games in - bearing in mind it can take players a while to show their best because you need your teammates to fit you into the play
A year and a half of inadequate performances can't be reduced to "just some poor form" nevertheless I think Carrick has something to offer our squad and I'm ceratinly not among those who think he should be sold.
He's not had a year and a half of inadequate performances.
His performances has been patchy for a year and a half maybe.
I think the sale talk comes from the tactic used by Sir Alex in the past where he takes someone in and says your too good to be on the bench
If Carrick is happy sometimes being on the bench, wonderful"Fletcher has done nothing for the last year and a half to give us confidence hes capable of performing alongside scholes"
Is what we use to say. How times have changed aye?
Does anybody else think carricks becoming a bit injury prone?
Form is cyclical mate. He's a very good player and he is at peak age. I don't worry one iota about him - he'll turn it around.
Strange point you're making MO7, Fletcher was in his very early twenties when some were doubting him- These last two seasons should have been Carrick's prime and yet he seems to have gone backwards.
His form hasn't been "backwards" for two seasons. He was good in 08/09, but that has all been forgotten in the midst of the Barca game in Rome.
As Cnut says, his form was patchy last season. It was constantly below par - there were still good performances in there.
he was poor at the back end of the 08/09 season imo. The Barca game highlighted that massively, but he had been more for April/May of that season anyway.
He was still making huge contributions - the Wigan goal late on in that season.
The notion of Carrick's poor form has taken on a life of its own. I don't think it's ever been as bad, or as long a period, as is made out.
Also, something that constantly gets on my nerves. Why does every other under-performing player from that night seem to escape harsh criticism. Carrick seems to have had to take it all on his shoulders.
I'm sorry but I stand by my point that he's gone backwards in his last two seasons, I don't think that's a particularly controversial viewpoint to have. Anyway lets get back to Cleverly.
Carrick was playing slightly injured at the end of 08/09 - the Barca game was the best of a weak performance by everyone and in that was playing with a toe injury.
Carrick had some good games last year, he had a few bad ones and strangely when he suffers, the whole team suffers, which shows how important he is/has been even though people discount it.
He'll do the business this year for us - of that I am confident.
Carrick had some good games last year, he had a few bad ones and strangely when he suffers, the whole team suffers, which shows how important he is/has been even though people discount it.
He'll do the business this year for us - of that I am confident.
He hasn't gone backwards - you make it sound as though his attributes have depreciated. He's simply had a season of patchy form. It's happened to better players than Michael Carrick. He'll be back.
i am fecked if I can remember individual player's performances from April and May 08/09, but I find it very hard to believe that one of our key players was rubbish during a period when won 11 out 14 games and drew the other three. Including good wins vs Arsenal (twice), City and Spurs.
Massive understatement. I think he still do the business for us, but for most of last season he was poor, so much so that he was effectively dropped for the run-in.
Also this myth that he was the best of a bad bunch against Barca is bullshit, he was awful. Just because other players were awful too doesn't in some way redeem him.
Of course it doesn't - but that isn't the point I made.
I was saying that he took more than his fair share of the criticism. Anderson and Giggs alongside him put in far worse performances individually, yet never got anywhere near the same level of scrutiny.
It has gotten to the point where Carrick was basically the principle scapegoat; the root of all our failings in that match. That is, of course, bollocks.
Massive Overstatement?
If he had that many bad games - tell me which games he was bad. Not playing fantastic doesn't mean bad, average doesn't mean bad - so which games was he bad in if there were that many?
The only difference is Carricks in his prime and for mehe didn't show the intelligence i'd look for in a player to mix the play and obviously no one really was sure how long Giggs would continue for so Carrick was the 'future' there and then. Personally I don't blame him for us losing to Barca, I just think we bottled it and were dumb
What does Giggs being near the end of his career have to do with his non-performance that night? He'd still performed to an unbelievably high standard that season, and at times last season. You don't absolve him of blame because of that - don't make out as though he was on his last legs or something.
You last sentence is apt - to a man, we were just shite.
Carrick creates a rather interesting debate. I've noticed that when he plays well and we, as a team, play well, the majority claim that we didn't play well because of Carrick, but rather because he was made to look a superior player by other, better, players around him. As though he couldn't possibly the man to make us tick and dictate the game for us. Yet as soon as we lose, he's one of the first people that is maligned.
People can't have it both ways - if you refuse to credit him when he makes us tick, don't get on the lad's back when we lose...
Cristiano blamed United's tactics for the Barca loss.
My perception was that with two first choice fullbacks out from Barca, the tactical plan was to go at the aging Puyol at right back. Rooney was lined up on the left against Puyol, and Carrick obediently kept making pass after pass behind Puyol. As it turned out Puyol still had plenty left in the tank, and he may have been a better defender than those he replaced. Rooney got nowhere, and United failed to adjust after it's game plan failed.
Just my recollection for what it is worth. It still does not excuse Carrick's failure to bounce back last season, but he may have lost the confidence of the manager.
My perception was that with two first choice fullbacks out from Barca, the tactical plan was to go at the aging Puyol at right back. Rooney was lined up on the left against Puyol, and Carrick obediently kept making pass after pass behind Puyol. As it turned out Puyol still had plenty left in the tank, and he may have been a better defender than those he replaced. Rooney got nowhere, and United failed to adjust after it's game plan failed.
Just my recollection for what it is worth. It still does not excuse Carrick's failure to bounce back last season, but he may have lost the confidence of the manager.
Disagree that Anderson and Giggs were "far worse" but agree they were both very poor too.
I also agree that anyone blaming our defeat on Carrick, or holding him up as the main culprit, is talking bollocks. The entire performance was appalling, Carrick was as bad as the rest, no better no worse.
So, Tom Cleverley then..
I'm expecting big things from this kid. Hopefully I'm not overestimating him.. He seems confident on the ball, gives it away a few times though, which after some time I can see that getting on alot of people's nerves. Would have liked to see him go on loan to Blackburn/Bolton, but Fergie's come out and said that he's staying. Can't see him getting too many first team games under his belt. Anyone else feel he should be sent out on loan? Any thoughts on him perhaps going out in Jan on loan?
I'm expecting big things from this kid. Hopefully I'm not overestimating him.. He seems confident on the ball, gives it away a few times though, which after some time I can see that getting on alot of people's nerves. Would have liked to see him go on loan to Blackburn/Bolton, but Fergie's come out and said that he's staying. Can't see him getting too many first team games under his belt. Anyone else feel he should be sent out on loan? Any thoughts on him perhaps going out in Jan on loan?
Aye, fair enough.
The fact that SAF is keeping him here would suggest that he thinks he'll get as much/more playing time here than at any of the clubs that he was linked to.
Definitely a real possibility, but I do think it's a very good thing for him to actually get some game time with the first team beforehand as well. It might not be a huge amount, but Welbeck and Macheda have both made impacts from their limited opportunities with us, and it would be good for him to build on his burgeoning reputation by doing the same. Friendlies are one thing (and he's made a very good impression in them), competitive matches are another, and even getting a few outings with the likes of Rooney and Scholes, in proper matches, will do his confidence no end of good.
People were saying the same thing about Alonso then...
Carrick's form is dependent on the players in front of him. He's just the conductor - all he can do is direct the play, it's not his fault if the individuals he's directing aren't doing it. The only problem could be his style of 'conducting', if we're playing a different way he doesn't adapt so well and we might be moving away from that style in general.
Now that Cleverly is staying - just wondering how much he'll play for us. SAF already speaks so highly of Gibson and his scoring and now speaking of Cleverly's ability as a scorer as well - he is obviously talking about it from a central position as he said he can't rely on Scholes to give him 15 a season any more.
Question marks regarding being able to play in a 4-4-2. Not likely he'll be taking games from Nani, Park, Valencia or even Obertan on the wings. So that leaves him as perhaps a central mid in a 3 CM setup. But, when we play in that way - it's usually against stronger teams.
Where do people think he'll get most of his games now that he is staying this season?
Question marks regarding being able to play in a 4-4-2. Not likely he'll be taking games from Nani, Park, Valencia or even Obertan on the wings. So that leaves him as perhaps a central mid in a 3 CM setup. But, when we play in that way - it's usually against stronger teams.
Where do people think he'll get most of his games now that he is staying this season?
One other thing I like about Cleverly is his pressing ability, in that regards, he reminds me of Becks.
guess he will be a backup till jan
wont take a spot in the 25
hargo/ando .. if they regain their fitness(hargo.. i know . i still have a bit of hope), then he will be loaned out in jan ..
either way , he has a great future .. training with the first team squad and getting a few games isnt a bad option either
wont take a spot in the 25
hargo/ando .. if they regain their fitness(hargo.. i know . i still have a bit of hope), then he will be loaned out in jan ..
either way , he has a great future .. training with the first team squad and getting a few games isnt a bad option either
Hes 21, he doesnt need a spot in the 25 if im not mistaken...
but, thats what he meant when he said he won't take a spot in the squad of 25.
Hopefully we'll see the talent that probably made us pull out of the Ljajic deal.
Lets hope so. I mean he should get a few games in the cups especially if we can do as well in the Carling as last few seasons plus he might pick up odd games in PL or CL like Gibson started to.
If we ain't going to buy any midfielders then what is the point of sending Cleverly out on loan, especially when he's had already gone out on loan and also done well in pre season.
Giggs lets face it is near the end of his career and can't always be expected to be 100%. I think most people do give him credit and maybe it's unfair on Carrick? I always think of the future and on the night, there was real lack of intelligence by the lads. Carrick got the main brunt because Giggs and scholes are near the 'end' and Hargreaves is not available. You have to bear in mind though that the anger has calmed down ALOT . We naturally get angry but you know we're more reasonable these days. Personally I can accept mistakes but the ones you create yourself are disappointing
I've no idea
I think the fact Sir Alex said he was versatile means he's probably open minded. I think he will get a few chances in the midfield or perhaps more advanced role. It's a great lift for the club. I think he's better then Gibson though to be fair to Gibson, I think he has to lose weight. I think he could challenge Gibson as he has far better mobility and runs off players and offers a different type of threat- Status