Toby Alderweireld

[Isotope]

If that’s true why did he sign Lindelöf? The exact opposite of a big lumbering centrebacks and a guy who’s known for his ball playing skills? And why would he want to sign Alderweriald, again a cb who’s known for his ball playing skills? Just think that through for a bit, does he really prefer Smalling or was he just the best option at the time given injuries and form? A guy doesn’t sign 2 ball playing cbs in a row if he doesn’t want to build out from the back.

He doesn't play these 'ball playing CBs' often because at the end of days, he still prefers CB who can defend, more than that ball playing skill.

It happens with Pep too, where Stones and Laporte aren't his first choice CBs, because he prioritize CBs who can defend more.

Having a ball playing CB sure help the play, but at the end, manager wants a CB who can defend first and foremost. Unless the manager is that multiple title winner Southgate.

Otherwise, just let midfielder playing at the back there.

 

[Ekeke]

If that’s true why did he sign Lindelöf? The exact opposite of a big lumbering centrebacks and a guy who’s known for his ball playing skills? And why would he want to sign Alderweriald, again a cb who’s known for his ball playing skills? Just think that through for a bit, does he really prefer Smalling or was he just the best option at the time given injuries and form? A guy doesn’t sign 2 ball playing cbs in a row if he doesn’t want to build out from the back.

Because theres a spot next to Smalling or Bailly (physical types). Lindelof didnt make an impression so of course we're looking at players to come in and strengthen the position. But its Smalling +1 until we have the +1. Then we can try and find someone we can rely on as much as Smalling.

This idea that Jose is some European Sam Allardyce is so hyperbolic it’s a joke. Yes he’s not Pep but he’s not some 19th century manager, he knows it’s important to attack and he isn’t just a long ball merchant. Yes he wants to keep Fellaini but he started him like what, 3/4 times all season? People act like he starts every game and we just hoof ball to him every game. Pep himself is criticised for having no plan b (how many CL quarter finals has he lost now?) yet Mou is criticised for having the best plan b in the game, what a joke.

Look at who we are being linked with. If you want to believe we're after Alderwerald, we're also linked to another 6'3 CM who is pretty good in the air, Milinkovic-Savic. We signed a 6'4 DM. Our record signing was a 6'3 CM. Our new star striker was a 6'2-6'3 physical striker.

Our most picked CB was a 6'4 CB who also happened to be our best defender.

This isnt a coincidence. Mourinho wants height and power. You can look at any of his teams in the past, he's not as concerned with having the ball as our fans are. He just wants to win and believes his tall physical players are the way to do it.

Most managers in the PL aren’t Pep and look for a combination of power, physicality and technical skills. We are no different. How many little guys do Spurs have other than Eriksen? How many to Liverpool have other than Salah? Mourinho has signed Sanchez and is apparently targeting 5ft 6 Fred. Just because you want power and pace doesn’t mean you disregard technical skills completely. You can’t win games as a top team if you have no technical ability, Mourinho didn’t get so many league titles, CLs and cups by not understanding how to play good fluid football. He can do it he just approaches it in a different way to Pep but even Poch plays a style that focuses on outrunning and being more aggressive and physical than the opposition. All managers are on a spectrum but Mou is far further from the hoofball end than most people think.

Our squad had 15 players over 6 feet this season, 16 if we include Ibra for his short time. 6 of them were signed by Mourinho and for plenty of money in his 2 seasons here.

The Spurs squad has 14.

The reason I showed the City example is because it’s easier to see when you show the extreme. The point is all good teams need to be able to build out from the back, it’s not like only Barca style teams do it. How can you push forward and get into dangerous positions if you can’t bring the ball out from the back? It’s a tactical failing it’s nothing to do with trying to emulate Barcelona

Only City and Barcelona do it the way they do though. Thats why it doesnt make sense to show the extreme. Show something our players are realistically going to try and do under our current manager. If its only us that dont do what you're suggesting, you'll have plenty of examples from all the teams around us doing it without City and Barcelona's specially tailored players and Guardiola's tactics.

 

[Saf94]

He doesn't play these 'ball playing CBs' often because at the end of days, he still prefers CB who can defend, more than that ball playing skill.

Well if the defender can’t defend there’s no point playing them, the main job is to defend but the secondary and still important job is to bring the ball out. Lindelöf needed time to be integrated, he struggled with the physicality of the league so he couldn’t just be thrown in.

But if it weren’t for injuries to Rojo, Bailly and Jones Smalling wouldn’t have played as much as he did. At the end of the day if you have a guy who’s played 90% of the season because of injuries to others it doesn’t make sense to take him out at the end of the season when the other guys have recovered. Any team would want their defence to defend first but clearly Mou has plans to build out from the back and that’s why he bought Lindelöf and why he’s targeting Alderweriald.

The argument that he played Smalling so he hates to play fluid football is just stupid. There’s so many reasons why Smalling played as much as he did and people who have a certain view of Mourinho will just ignore those reasons. The evidence that Mou wants to play out from the back is clear, you don’t spend over 50m on ball playing cbs if you don’t want that. Last year Smalling played very little and looked like he was on his way out? How come Mou did that if he loves his huge lumbering cbs? Mou played Rojo consistently until his injury and if he didn’t get an ACL he probably would kept his place and Smalling would’ve seen much more bench time.

It was just circumstances that led to Smalling playing a lot not because Mourinho hates to play fluid attacking football

 

[Kush]

Why are so many Spurs 'feeling' he'll end up at Barcelona, did I miss something? Pique is a mainstay in XI and Umtiti's renewal is a priority for them. Where would he fit in?

 

[Dion]

He doesn't play these 'ball playing CBs' often because at the end of days, he still prefers CB who can defend, more than that ball playing skill.

Carvalho
John Terry
Boulahrouz
Alex
Lucio
Varane
Bailly
Lindelof
Samuel
Pepe
Ramos
Cahill

None of those are the player you described.

 

[Ekeke]

Well if the defender can’t defend there’s no point playing them, the main job is to defend but the secondary and still important job is to bring the ball out. Lindelöf needed time to be integrated, he struggled with the physicality of the league so he couldn’t just be thrown in.

But if it weren’t for injuries to Rojo, Bailly and Jones Smalling wouldn’t have played as much as he did. At the end of the day if you have a guy who’s played 90% of the season because of injuries to others it doesn’t make sense to take him out at the end of the season when the other guys have recovered. Any team would want their defence to defend first but clearly Mou has plans to build out from the back and that’s why he bought Lindelöf and why he’s targeting Alderweriald.

Actually it makes total sense. Just listen to Guardiola talk about how what he did in his first season is the reason why things came together in his 2nd season. He had picked the players he believed in and was playing them in year 1 because he believed they could do what they did this season.

If Mourinho is sure that he wants Lindelof or Bailly or whoever to be playing this season, he'd already be putting them in the team quite frequently planning for the future. Unless of course he thought that we'd be a weaker team and might miss out on the top 4 if he did that - in which case, he doesnt rate them as highly as CBs.

The argument that he played Smalling so he hates to play fluid football is just stupid. There’s so many reasons why Smalling played as much as he did and people who have a certain view of Mourinho will just ignore those reasons. The evidence that Mou wants to play out from the back is clear, you don’t spend over 50m on ball playing cbs if you don’t want that. Last year Smalling played very little and looked like he was on his way out? How come Mou did that if he loves his huge lumbering cbs? Mou played Rojo consistently until his injury and if he didn’t get an ACL he probably would kept his place and Smalling would’ve seen much more bench time.

It was just circumstances that led to Smalling playing a lot not because Mourinho hates to play fluid attacking football

Of course it is. Who on earth said that? Nobody that I have seen. Are you arguing with yourself or something?

The point is that Smalling has the qualities that Mourinho has looked to stock up on elsewhere in the team. He also started the most games of our CBs, even when others were available. He also performed the best.

Of course I'm sure if Mourinho was told about a player who is tall, physical and a good defender like Smalling but is also far more comfortable on the ball I'm sure he'd leap at the chance to bring him into the squad and try him out. But its very hard to find a player like that.

And even if we did find that player, he'd probably be picked next to Smalling because the ball playing is complimentary to what Smalling does. Its far more likely to be his partner than his replacement - at least until we find another CB we can rely on like Smalling. Then when we have the other one, thats when we can look to replace our currently best CB.

 

[Saf94]

Carvalho
John Terry
Boulahrouz
Alex
Lucio
Varane
Bailly
Lindelof
Samuel
Pepe
Ramos
Cahill

None of those are the player you described.

Don’t forget this - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ex...-John-Stones-January-transfer-news-gossip/amp

Mourinho bid for John Stones 4 times, John Stones! Literally the complete opposite of Smalling yet people say he only wants defenders who can defend. People have their opinions and just won’t change them no matter what evidence is presented

 

[Isotope]

Well if the defender can’t defend there’s no point playing them, the main job is to defend but the secondary and still important job is to bring the ball out. Lindelöf needed time to be integrated, he struggled with the physicality of the league so he couldn’t just be thrown in.

But if it weren’t for injuries to Rojo, Bailly and Jones Smalling wouldn’t have played as much as he did. At the end of the day if you have a guy who’s played 90% of the season because of injuries to others it doesn’t make sense to take him out at the end of the season when the other guys have recovered. Any team would want their defence to defend first but clearly Mou has plans to build out from the back and that’s why he bought Lindelöf and why he’s targeting Alderweriald.

The argument that he played Smalling so he hates to play fluid football is just stupid. There’s so many reasons why Smalling played as much as he did and people who have a certain view of Mourinho will just ignore those reasons. The evidence that Mou wants to play out from the back is clear, you don’t spend over 50m on ball playing cbs if you don’t want that. Last year Smalling played very little and looked like he was on his way out? How come Mou did that if he loves his huge lumbering cbs? Mou played Rojo consistently until his injury and if he didn’t get an ACL he probably would kept his place and Smalling would’ve seen much more bench time.

It was just circumstances that led to Smalling playing a lot not because Mourinho hates to play fluid attacking football

Even when others playing, with no Smalling there, we don't really "play from the back". Didn't you notice how Rojo or Jones played?

Also, you realized that we play back four, with Smalling is only one of them. What the other 3 did? You see our fullbacks both love to hoof the balls, and I think they both are more of the antithesis of this 'playing from the back'.

Then you see how our midfield can't really keep the ball under pressure, and not to mention our attack.

I don't see how you've watched United in the last two years, and can claim that Mourinho loves a fluid attacking football.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

How would you guys feel about getting Toby if we end up with Martial? Obviously not a swap deal.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

I’ve always liked Toby and have seen quite a lot of him in his younger years playing for Ajax, though I have to admit I always rated Vertonghen a little bit higher (he was older than Toby and further in his development because of that though). We could also do with improving in every area if we want to challenge for the title, and he would be an improvement I think.

Still something doesn’t feel that great about a potential transfer to us. Hard to rationalise it, but I guess the amount of money mentioned both in transfer fee and salary combined with the fact he’ll probably have no resale value. I also think someone like Alexis is slightly more talented as a forward than Alderweireld is as a defender, meaning that Sanchez costing us a lot of money is more justified in my book, so I guess again it’s the lack of ‘value’ in this transfer that bothers me.

Still though, him and at least one proper creative fullback could do a lot of good for the quality of our play.

How would you guys feel about getting Toby if we end up with Martial? Obviously not a swap deal.

my guess is that Martial’s future will be decided by what he and his agent want the most this summer. I think we absolutely need him in our squad if we want to challenge for the title next year, looking at how much quality City have in depth. So no way. Or maybe if he is desperate to leave us, pushes for a move, and you guys offer Coutinho money for him...

 

[Ekeke]

Don’t forget this - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ex...-John-Stones-January-transfer-news-gossip/amp

Mourinho bid for John Stones 4 times, John Stones! Literally the complete opposite of Smalling yet people say he only wants defenders who can defend. People have their opinions and just won’t change them no matter what evidence is presented

Who is saying that? I havent. And the guy who said that managers like to sign ball playing CBs to play at specific times but fall back on the better defending CBs for most of the games isnt saying those managers dont sign the ball playing CBs. So what does trying to sign Stones say thats contradictory to that? Nothing. Because signing a CB with more ability on the ball than Smalling doesnt mean he'd end up being picked more, which is what that poster was talking about.

 

[Isotope]

Carvalho
John Terry
Boulahrouz
Alex
Lucio
Varane
Bailly
Lindelof
Samuel
Pepe
Ramos
Cahill

None of those are the player you described.

You need a pair who can defend and a passer. You see a mix on those, but in general they can defend first and foremost. The ball playing is a secondary attribute, which is of course also would be great to have.

But the notion that Morinho loves to build from the back, to play a fluid attacking football is nonsense.

 

[Saf94]

Even when others playing, with no Smalling there, we don't really "play from the back". Didn't you notice how Rojo or Jones played?

Also, you realized that we play back four, with Smalling is only one of them. What the other 3 did? You see our fullbacks both love to hoof the balls, and I think they both are more of the antithesis of this 'playing from the back'.

Then you see how our midfield can't really keep the ball under pressure, and not to mention our attack.

I don't see how you've watched United in the last two years, and can claim that Mourinho loves a fluid attacking football.

I think there isn’t much point in replying because these arguments have all been made already in this same thread. I’ve already posted videos showing how opposition teams pressed our ball playing cb when they had the ball and left Smalling alone when he had it. And someone else posted a video of Lindelof who did exactly what you said didn’t happen, he brought the ball out a lot and tried to build from the back when he played against Arsenal. And in all 3 of the videos I showed demonstrated what the fullbacks do and I mentioned it too, the fullbacks don’t bring the ball out they should be pushing forward to be passing options in the midfield, it only takes 2 centrebacks to bring the ball out. If too many players are deep then there’s no passing options ahead and there build up breaks down.

All this has been said before so I feel like this argument is going round in circles. You have your opinion and I have mine. Like I said many times, Mourinho has spent a lot of money on ball playing centrebacks. He played Ricardo Carvalho for many years who’s distinctly not a Smalling type. He tried to sign John Stones 4 times and for a lot of money back then at Chelsea. If this evidence doesn’t make you think maybe he cares about playing out of the back then it’s just ignoring the clear evidence in front of you.

I don’t understand the argument that if you put so much effort and money into recruiting ball playing cbs it doesn’t mean he wants to play out from the back. At the very best it just means that if Lindelöf doesn’t play it’s because he was expected to be better than he was/isn’t ready yet. I don’t understand where the argument comes from that he doesn’t want to play this style at all.

 

[charlenefan]

Why are so many Spurs 'feeling' he'll end up at Barcelona, did I miss something? Pique is a mainstay in XI and Umtiti's renewal is a priority for them. Where would he fit in?

Plus they're signing the lad from Seville

 

[A-man]

Yes I agree Lindelöf is pretty good at it but I don’t think him on his own is enough to affect our build up significantly. The problems still exist when he plays and the midfield don’t drop deep for nothing, let me show you some videos to explain


These are from the 2 games this season against Brighton where we struggled in both. What pattern do you notice in both? In both when Rojo/Bailly are on the ball the Brighton players start pressing them, when Smalling is on the ball the players back off and he gets all the time in the world. This is why our midfielders have to drop deep because Smalling can’t do anything with the ball at his feet, he’s so weak on the ball that all Brighton have to do is cut off simple passing lanes and we have no build up. They figured it out and we struggled in both our games against them, lost one and won the other by an own goal. If Smalling could bring the ball out the midfielders wouldn’t have to drop deep and support the defence in build up.

Now compare to this clip of City

Starts off in a similar situation but the cbs are very comfortable holding the ball, bringing it forward and passing it forward. The opposition then back off because they can’t press them in the same way and it allows the City midfield to push forward and by the end the whole city team is in the opposition half apart from the CBs. It’s a world of difference from our situation.

Do you see how a simple thing like this can affect the whole shape and build up of the team? It’s not about blaming our cbs for our attacking failings. Things like this are important for any team that wants to dominate games and play attacking football. Building out from the back is a very important aspect of attacking football and it shows that we struggled in both those Brighton games after they did such a good job of limiting our building out from the back.

Besides in an attacking team that expects to dominate every player on the pitch has to attack and defend. Do our attackers not work hard to help the defence? Are they not all expected to track back and do a lot of defensive work? Yet our defenders get a free pass and don’t have to contribute to the attack? Our defenders should be as good at passing and bringing the ball out as our attackers are at pressing and tracking back. This is how fluid football works not that each section of a team does one job only and the attackers attack and the defenders defend. This is certainly not how Pep, Klopp or any
other attacking manager plays.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote, and your examples of when it hasn’t worked out are good examples of how it has looked too many times. Maybe I connect this potential transfer too much with the rumours of Lindelof going to Wolverhampton. Because then you would be in more or less the same sitauation but with a little upgrade. My point is that except against Arsenal and a few more exceptions, the support from the midfield and the way the team play, hasn’t really been supported offensive CBs. Plus I believe that constantly rotating CB next to Smalling and also punishing CBs who make mistakes, leads to CB playing better-safe-than-sorry football. The midfield does not need to drop deep in every match. Absolutely not. They do not need to physically interfere with a CB going forward or come within a metre to demand the ball.

I don’t understand what you mean with a free pass? Fullbacks are part of the attach, Smalling has more goals than most CB. Yes they can participate more and create more, like in the Arsenal match, but I think it is also part of Mourinhos tactics.

 

[Isotope]

I think there isn’t much point in replying because these arguments have all been made already in this same thread. I’ve already posted videos showing how opposition teams pressed our ball playing cb when they had the ball and left Smalling alone when he had it. And someone else posted a video of Lindelof who did exactly what you said didn’t happen, he brought the ball out a lot and tried to build from the back when he played against Arsenal. And in all 3 of the videos I showed demonstrated what the fullbacks do and I mentioned it too, the fullbacks don’t bring the ball out they should be pushing forward to be passing options in the midfield, it only takes 2 centrebacks to bring the ball out. If too many players are deep then there’s no passing options ahead and there build up breaks down.

All this has been said before so I feel like this argument is going round in circles. You have your opinion and I have mine. Like I said many times, Mourinho has spent a lot of money on ball playing centrebacks. He played Ricardo Carvalho for many years who’s distinctly not a Smalling type. He tried to sign John Stones 4 times and for a lot of money back then at Chelsea. If this evidence doesn’t make you think maybe he cares about playing out of the back then it’s just ignoring the clear evidence in front of you.

I don’t understand the argument that if you put so much effort and money into recruiting ball playing cbs it doesn’t mean he wants to play out from the back. At the very best it just means that if Lindelöf doesn’t play it’s because he was expected to be better than he was/isn’t ready yet. I don’t understand where the argument comes from that he doesn’t want to play this style at all.

So why would he always prefer two DM system if he likes to attack so much? Isn't it make more sense of using more attacking minded midfield to pass more, instead of expecting your centerbacks?

 

[Saf94]

So why would he always prefer two DM system if he likes to attack?

Because attacking isn’t about having as many attack minded players on the pitch as possible. Attacking football is about having the movement and quality to break teams down, create space and finish chances.

If you place 11 men standing still in the opposition final third that wouldn’t be attacking football, you wouldn’t break any teams down like that. It doesn’t take your entire team to attack to score goals it takes a few creative players and good movement to attack and score goals. Chelsea scored 85 goals last season (more than Liverpool this season) playing only a front 3 and wingbacks and everyone else was more defensive minded (3 cbs and 2 dms).

If you play 2 dms it allows your creative players more protection and therefore more ability to roam and be creative without having to worry about positional discipline. If Pogba, Sanchez, Lukaku and Lingard didn’t congest so much in the middle they could break teams down better but the issue isn’t that there’s 2 dms it’s that the wingbacks aren’t giving enough width (not enough energy to threaten in behind or act as wingers) and Pogba/Sanchez aren’t making enough vertical runs (if only Lingard is making runs in behind it’s not enough).

The idea that you have to throw everyone forward to attack is wrong, if you play total football then yes but otherwise it’s about having players with the right quality and making the right movement to get into space and create chances. Like I said every team is on a spectrum, Spurs play 2 dms, Liverpool play 3 holding mids behind the front 3, Chelsea scored 85 goals with basically 3 attack minded players in the whole team. There’s many ways to play attacking football not just being Barca/Bayern/City and committing everyone forward and dominating everything. You can do that if you have the best players in the world or in your league but if not there’s other ways

 

[Dion]

You need a pair who can defend and a passer. You see a mix on those, but in general they can defend first and foremost. The ball playing is a secondary attribute, which is of course also would be great to have.

But the notion that Morinho loves to build from the back, to play a fluid attacking football is nonsense.

For every central defender passing is a secondary attribute. Literally the only central defender he's had who was a bit of a lugger and no good on the ball is Huth. He *never* goes for defenders who aren't good on the ball.

 

[haram]

People just dont want to accept that “park the bus hoof ball” Mourinho might actually want players who a lot of the time START the build up of attacks to be comfortable on the ball as well as being able to defend. It’s like he has won several titles before based off stuff like this.

People have been brainwashed.

 

[breakout67]

People just dont want to accept that “park the bus hoof ball” Mourinho might actually want players who a lot of the time START the build up of attacks to be comfortable on the ball as well as being able to defend. It’s like he has won several titles before based off stuff like this.

People have been brainwashed.

He's had ball playing centre backs at every club he has managed. Some seem to have forgotten that until recently top defenders were good defenders AND passers.

Every top manager wants their Centre backs to be competent with the ball and be able to build play.

 

[dutchred]

Why are so many people convinced that we need this guy? Our defense was not poor this season. we need a couple of full backs but no new center backs
a new midfielder and a right winger is what we need

 

[A-man]

So why would he always prefer two DM system if he likes to attack so much? Isn't it make more sense of using more attacking minded midfield to pass more, instead of expecting your centerbacks?

I think you didn’t understand me as this is more or less my point. He doesn’t like to attack and therefore I don’t think another ball playing CB would change much.

 

[charlenefan]

Why are so many people convinced that we need this guy? Our defense was not poor this season. we need a couple of full backs but no new center backs
a new midfielder and a right winger is what we need

Our goals against record is due to De Gea, if it weren't for him our defensive record would be awful

 

[YouOnlyLiveTwice]

How would you guys feel about getting Toby if we end up with Martial? Obviously not a swap deal.

Any transfer involving Martial and a PL club, has to include an attacking player going the other way, otherwise no way jose.

 

[Ekeke]

Our goals against record is due to De Gea, if it weren't for him our defensive record would be awful

No it wouldnt. It would be worse not awful.

Now if we took out Lukaku's goals contribution from our attack, that would be awful.

 

[dutchred]

Our goals against record is due to De Gea, if it weren't for him our defensive record would be awful

That's crap. De Gea is great but cant hold a defense on his own. Our central defence is solid and the back up is solid. The grass is always greener. I watched Alderweireld a lot at Ajax and Vertonger was always the better and more skillful player. It would piss me off noi end id we bought him and never gave Axel a chance

 

[Flytan]

That's crap. De Gea is great but cant hold a defense on his own. Our central defence is solid and the back up is solid. The grass is always greener. I watched Alderweireld a lot at Ajax and Vertonger was always the better and more skillful player. It would piss me off noi end id we bought him and never gave Axel a chance

Saw some stat the other day that De Gea prevented something like 10+ goals this season other goalkeepers would have allowed. Anyone can tell we need improvements in defense. ALL our CBs are error prone (Bailly included) and we can't stop a set piece to save our lives (which is a huge sign of a fragile defense imo). I think most of it has to do with our fullbacks but our CBs could be better. Are they as bad as some people say? Absolutely not. But they're pretty easily improved on with some of the players available in the market.

 

[dutchred]

Saw some stat the other day that De Gea prevented something like 10+ goals this season other goalkeepers would have allowed. Anyone can tell we need improvements in defense. ALL our CBs are error prone (Bailly included) and we can't stop a set piece to save our lives (which is a huge sign of a fragile defense imo). I think most of it has to do with our fullbacks but our CBs could be better. Are they as bad as some people say? Absolutely not. But they're pretty easily improved on with some of the players available in the market.

I would really love to know how you measure a save that other goalkeepers would not have saved. Maybe if Joe Hart was your standard then you could do it.

 

[Saf94]

Ok so for those that wanted examples of when we’ve played our from the back I’ve dug some up from the Watford game at the end of the season where we played Bailly and Rojo with Blind I think playing as dm but was quite deep in the game (sometimes like a third cb)



You can see how much composure our defenders show in these examples and both lead to effective movement of the ball up the pitch.

You can see how comfortable and confident Blind and then Bailly are bringing the ball forward. This has a whole ripple effect on the game, firstly it pushes the opposition back deeper into their own half, secondly it allows our midfield and fullbacks to take up positions higher up and because the opposition have dropped off it creates gaps for our players to take up and eventually we get into good areas on the left side with Mata and Sanchez.

Compare that to this example below which I posted earlier.



Look how deep our midfield has to drop to pick up the ball and create passing options for the defence because they can’t bring the ball forward. Our team is so deep that most of them are on the halfway line, this makes it so hard to bring the ball up the pitch and so much easier for the opposition to compress the pitch and press us on the ball.



In this example you can see how much composure Bailly has to hold onto the ball and play it back to Romero, he avoids the press and because of that there’s space for Young and Blind to bring the ball forward and start the attack.

It’s simple stuff, this isn’t trying to play like Barcelona, this is standard football that any team that wants to dominate games and win a lot of games needs to do. Once in a century a counter attacking team like Leicester will win the league but every other top team will need to be good with the ball and build from the back. It’s not crazy expectations but it’s important that we can do this well, that we couldn’t even do this for most of the season with Smalling/Jones at the back was just embarrassing frankly. You don’t have to be Pep to see this is important to creating chances and scoring goals

 

[A-man]

Our goals against record is due to De Gea, if it weren't for him our defensive record would be awful

Of course a good goalkeeper gives a better record. More or less all teams with low level of goals conceded have goalkeepers at this level. Oblak is a good example. However, with another good goalie or even with second choice Romero, the record wouldn’t be dreadful, that an exaggeration.

 

[Infra-red]

Saw some stat the other day that De Gea prevented something like 10+ goals this season other goalkeepers would have allowed. Anyone can tell we need improvements in defense. ALL our CBs are error prone (Bailly included) and we can't stop a set piece to save our lives (which is a huge sign of a fragile defense imo). I think most of it has to do with our fullbacks but our CBs could be better. Are they as bad as some people say? Absolutely not. But they're pretty easily improved on with some of the players available in the market.

This is particularly infuriating.

We have conceded 12 goals from open play in the Premier League this season. That's the best record in the league, in fact we're much, much better than any of our rivals at preventing open play goals from being scored against us - we're top with 12, City are second with 20, Spurs third with 22. Arsenal have conceded 36 goals from open play.

Meanwhile, when you look at the data for goals conceded from set pieces, you find that there are 8 Premier League teams with better records than us, including all our rivals, even Arsenal (we're actually worse at defending set pieces than Arsenal ffs!). More than a third (36%) of all the goals we've conceded this year, came from set pieces (compared to just 11% for Man City). That is appalling, especially for a side as big and physically strong as ours.

 

[dutchred]

This is particularly infuriating.

We have conceded 12 goals from open play in the Premier League this season. That's the best record in the league, in fact we're much, much better than any of our rivals at preventing open play goals from being scored against us - we're top with 12, City are second with 20, Spurs third with 22. Arsenal have conceded 36 goals from open play.

Meanwhile, when you look at the data for goals conceded from set pieces, you find that there are 8 Premier League teams with better records than us, including all our rivals, even Arsenal (we're actually worse at defending set pieces than Arsenal ffs!). More than a third (36%) of all the goals we've conceded this year, came from set pieces (compared to just 11% for Man City). That is appalling, especially for a side as big and physically strong as ours.

Being big and strong has nothing to do with it. Its organisation and this has to go down to training. If we don't train to deal with set pieces we could put 10 Tony A's in there and still concede

 

[Infra-red]

Being big and strong has nothing to do with it. Its organisation and this has to go down to training. If we don't train to deal with set pieces we could put 10 Tony A's in there and still concede

Oh I agree completely - I was just making the point that because of the size of the team, we should be good at this stuff, if we actually organised ourselves. Instead, we're terrible.

Edit: Might not just be down to organisation actually, as thinking about it, Smalling is the only defender (CB or fullback) at the club that I'd actually fancy to win an aerial duel vs an opponent.

 

[A-man]

Saw some stat the other day that De Gea prevented something like 10+ goals this season other goalkeepers would have allowed. Anyone can tell we need improvements in defense. ALL our CBs are error prone (Bailly included) and we can't stop a set piece to save our lives (which is a huge sign of a fragile defense imo). I think most of it has to do with our fullbacks but our CBs could be better. Are they as bad as some people say? Absolutely not. But they're pretty easily improved on with some of the players available in the market.

The stats are not about how many goals he has prevented, but how many shots he stopped compared to how many would have been goals on average in that situation. Does not equal to how many goals he has prevented as stopping shots is only one way to do it. Other player types prevent by sweeper clearances, for example, like Ederson and Neuer.

 

[FootyGirl88]

What would be interesting is to see how many chances we conceded, I feel that would also give a good reflection of our defensive record. That Arsenal game at the Emirates springs to mind, we let Arsenal have way too many shots on goal.

 

[A-man]

This is particularly infuriating.

We have conceded 12 goals from open play in the Premier League this season. That's the best record in the league, in fact we're much, much better than any of our rivals at preventing open play goals from being scored against us - we're top with 12, City are second with 20, Spurs third with 22. Arsenal have conceded 36 goals from open play.

Meanwhile, when you look at the data for goals conceded from set pieces, you find that there are 8 Premier League teams with better records than us, including all our rivals, even Arsenal (we're actually worse at defending set pieces than Arsenal ffs!). More than a third (36%) of all the goals we've conceded this year, came from set pieces (compared to just 11% for Man City). That is appalling, especially for a side as big and physically strong as ours.

Do you have any stats about how many set pieces in total for City and for United? So we can calculate percentage of set pieces ending up as goals.

 

[Infra-red]

Do you have any stats about how many set pieces in total for City and for United? So we can calculate percentage of set pieces ending up as goals.

We've conceded 10 goals from set pieces (36% of total goals conceded). City have conceded 3 goals from set pieces (11% of total goals conceded).

Edit: Unless you mean 'what is the total number of set pieces faced by each team' - I don't have that data to hand.

 

[SwansonsTache]

We've conceded 10 goals from set pieces (36% of total goals conceded). City have conceded 3 goals from set pieces (11% of total goals conceded).

Edit: Unless you mean 'what is the total number of set pieces faced by each team' - I don't have that data to hand.

That stat is fecking shocking considering the height and physicality of the team.

Also Mourinho are supposed to be a master at defensive organization and structure, that isn't supposed to be St.Pep's thing.

 

[haram]

Ok so for those that wanted examples of when we’ve played our from the back I’ve dug some up from the Watford game at the end of the season where we played Bailly and Rojo with Blind I think playing as dm but was quite deep in the game (sometimes like a third cb)



You can see how much composure our defenders show in these examples and both lead to effective movement of the ball up the pitch.

You can see how comfortable and confident Blind and then Bailly are bringing the ball forward. This has a whole ripple effect on the game, firstly it pushes the opposition back deeper into their own half, secondly it allows our midfield and fullbacks to take up positions higher up and because the opposition have dropped off it creates gaps for our players to take up and eventually we get into good areas on the left side with Mata and Sanchez.

Compare that to this example below which I posted earlier.



Look how deep our midfield has to drop to pick up the ball and create passing options for the defence because they can’t bring the ball forward. Our team is so deep that most of them are on the halfway line, this makes it so hard to bring the ball up the pitch and so much easier for the opposition to compress the pitch and press us on the ball.



In this example you can see how much composure Bailly has to hold onto the ball and play it back to Romero, he avoids the press and because of that there’s space for Young and Blind to bring the ball forward and start the attack.

It’s simple stuff, this isn’t trying to play like Barcelona, this is standard football that any team that wants to dominate games and win a lot of games needs to do. Once in a century a counter attacking team like Leicester will win the league but every other top team will need to be good with the ball and build from the back. It’s not crazy expectations but it’s important that we can do this well, that we couldn’t even do this for most of the season with Smalling/Jones at the back was just embarrassing frankly. You don’t have to be Pep to see this is important to creating chances and scoring goals

Exactly. No one is claiming Jose wants us or any of his teams to pass it out like prime Barca. However, such approach from the first line of buildup (THE DEFENCE) is important to the effectiveness of attacking as a whole.

Look at the top european teams and how the defenders handle the ball and build up in general. No one said it was about passing it out like Scholes from CB.

 

[Infra-red]

That stat is fecking shocking considering the height and physicality of the team.

Also Mourinho are supposed to be a master at defensive organization and structure, that isn't supposed to be St.Pep's thing.

Guardiola spent a lot of last season talking about the importance in the Premier League of 'winning the duels'. They've got the 6th best record in Europe's top 5 leagues for % of aerial duels won and only Barcelona have conceded fewer goals from set pieces. Guardiola has organised them well.

This is all getting a bit off topic though, especially since Alderweireld would be brought in for his ball-playing ability rather than to be the big 'stopper' defender heading away corners and crosses.