Time to abandon "progressive" football...until we fix the foundations

stefan92 said:
How? United's players constantly look worse, much worse than United pays for them, both transfer fees and wages. How much serious interest from other clubs was there for United's players in recent windows? Not counting those whose contract ended obviously.
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Honestly, not my problem. Sell em at whatever price, we won't get value for them and we need to be OK with that. When it comes down to it we are in competition with other wealthy teams in this league. We can't pretend that this summer's investment is adequate given what and who we are competing against - and I'm not talking about Liverpool and City here, we are miles off from that.

nickm said:
I'd like us to pay to release all the deadwood on our books, clean the stables etc once and for all. Sadly we don't have the money for that.
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So loan them out and let them play their value up while we fix our squad. 40% wage agreements is better than having 100% sitting in the stands while the same issues persist.
 
A manager has to make the best out of the players we have, and I think Ten Hag will ultimately do that.

Against Brentford three personal mistakes were made that cost us three out of the four goals.

Mistakes should be cut out first. De Gea should not pass to Eriksen with a man running right behind him and Scott has to take more care with the ball to not give it away. This is not about ability, but about decision making and knowing your own weaknesses. Just two examples.

I think Ten Hag will start tweaking line-ups and systems to make things better. But until we match the work rate and intensity of the other team and cut out silly errors, nothing will change.
 
Although I can understand the point being made in the OP, I disagree. I say feck it and lets go all in with Ten Hag Ball

The problem we've had for years is when we try to implement a style, it goes wrong, and we just play it safe and hope for the best. Yes, one season is all came together for Ole, but what did we ultimately win? Nothing.

Then when we try and progress, we fall apart again.

We need to stick with it, sign the appropriate players, and if that means we finish 9th, then so be it. At least we are slowly moving towards a team that can actually challenge and win things, with players who aren't mentally weak - not including Ronaldo and Varane in that - with players who can fecking run, and complete simple tasks such as passing the ball to a team mate.

Our shitness in part is due to us not pushing and challenging these players to improve! They play like dog shit, we play it safe.

I back Ten Hag completely
 
Laurencio said:
Honestly, not my problem. Sell em at whatever price, we won't get value for them and we need to be OK with that.
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You can't sell a player against his will, he has to agree to a transfer. The biggest problem appears to be that United pays ridiculous wages for players that they wouldn't get anywhere else. It's difficult to get a player to agree to much lower wages to get rid of him...
 
@Lentwood i think your original thread title was a bit clunky but basically I think you are right. We shouldn’t be trying to play a system we have no players to play in - we absolutely aspire to play modern progressive football and sign players to that end but until we have that we should play to our current players strengths. Clear.
 
Why do people keep saying 'two games' as if the last decade didn't happen?

Let's take the point on DDG for example, I have watched almost every single game of club football DDG has played over the last decade.

Therefore, my observation that DDG struggles to play progressive football is not based on the evidence of two games, it's based on the evidence of a decades-worth of football.

I could say the same about Ronaldo, McTominay, Fred etc...I don't need to sit through another 58-games of yet another manager to know that they can't play a fluid, possession-based, high-line, high-press based system
 
Plant0x84 said:
@Lentwood i think your original thread title was a bit clunky but basically I think you are right. We shouldn’t be trying to play a system we have no players to play in - we absolutely aspire to play modern progressive football and sign players to that end but until we have that we should play to our current players strengths. Clear.
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Well put, I could have saved myself about 10 paragraphs - but yeah, you've nailed what I was getting at
 
Sarri in Milan didn’t do well at first until the players finally started understanding his methods.

We play Ten Hag’s style until either the players understand or we bring the right ones in. He didn’t come here for some half baked revolution.

Win lose or draw stick to the plan. We’ll be glad we did eventually.
 
Over the last two seasons when we have been terrible, the players who have played the most and consistently been in the starting line-up have been De Gea, Maguire, Shaw, Fred, McTominay, Bruno, Rashford.
Out of these players probably only Luke Shaw can be classed as being technically sound but his issues have always been tactical (Remember when Mourinho said he had to coach him for the whole 90 minutes in a game).
De Gea might be a good shot stopper but he is woeful with his feet and always has one of those moments where you feel like Roy Keane and want to punch him (Remember him lying in the foetal position in the middle of his goal against arsenal last season because he had his foot stepped on by Fred).
Maguire just makes me cringe everytime I see him play and I always think a mistake is coming from him.

Fred always gives the ball away and lacks any kind of strength to play in a physical league like the premier league.
Watching McTominay makes me want to cry, this guy can not pass the ball five yards forward and he is forever trying to run with the ball as if he is Gerrard or Toure, but everytime he does it, not only does he run with his head down with no awareness of what's going on around him, he literally loses the ball every time he runs with it, Finally on McTominay, how does a player that cannot get a game for Scotland in midfield be Manchester United's first choice midfielder (someone please help me make any sense of that).

I'm just done with Bruno, he's always shooting or trying an exotic pass, and he basically always loses the ball as soon as he's pressed, I always wonder what people are watching when they say he should play in a false nine, and I go back to the Brighton game when the ball was cut back to him and he hit it in to row Z and then yesterday when he was set up on the edge of the area, using the same technique, he did exactly the same thing. I believe there was a reason why none of the big clubs were in for him before he joined us and I have not heard about any big clubs being interested in him since he joined us, the clueless board gave him a contract extension when they held all the leverage, I just don't understand it.

And then we come to Marcus Rashford, there is nothing I like about his game, he has no spatial awareness, always plays with his head down, always runs in to blind alleys (Headless chicken vibes), can't make a five yard pass, he can't cross, his heading ability might be the worst I have ever seen in my life, this guy jumps for the ball and then always avoids heading it very comical to look at, people says he has a good shot on him, but i'd like to ask how many goals he has scored from outside the box in his career, i'll be shocked if he has scored up to five, There is nothing technical about his game and he has been a tactical disaster for two years now, he never helps his full back, he's rarely ever aware of the full back overlapping, in my opinion, he's just not a good footballer (Pace Merchant vibes ) and if I was Ten Hag, I will accept PSG's offer without a second thought.

Considering that these are the players that have been in a line-up that has been CONSISTENTLY Awful for nearly two years now, then there should be no hesitation on Ten Hags part to replace them in the line-up afterall how much worse can it get than this.

Malacia in for Shaw, Varane in for Maguire, Garner in for McTominay, Iqbal or Savage in for Fred, Eriksen or Van de Beek in for Bruno and Garnacho in for Rashford. With DeGea, I feel like we have to tolerate him for the season because i am not sure we have anyone better right now. All these replacement players I am sure will be looking for an opportunity to stake a claim in the starting line-up and will be hungry for a chance to impress because the starters have been a let-down for a long time now and we should be looking to transfer them out of the club but right now, they should be on the bench and then the line-up can then sort itself out afterwards depending on transfers we are able to complete before the end of the window.
 
NLunited said:
A manager has to make the best out of the players we have, and I think Ten Hag will ultimately do that.

Against Brentford three personal mistakes were made that cost us three out of the four goals.

Mistakes should be cut out first. De Gea should not pass to Eriksen with a man running right behind him and Scott has to take more care with the ball to not give it away. This is not about ability, but about decision making and knowing your own weaknesses. Just two examples.

I think Ten Hag will start tweaking line-ups and systems to make things better. But until we match the work rate and intensity of the other team and cut out silly errors, nothing will change.
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Scott? I'm not sure Scott could of.made a mistake leading to a goal from the bench?

Poor play from Ronaldo loosing the ball in a dangerous area, leading to the shot followed up by a truly awful piece of goalkeeping by de gea led to the first goal.

The second is all about de geas inability to be involved with playing the ball out from back. Another very poor piece of play from our very highly paid GK.

But the fact that up to that point we had failed to get any control and impose ourselves on the game was because ten hag thought he could get away with a very lite midfield three of bruno, eriksen and Fred aswell as playing a very small CB away at Brentford. The mistakes were poor but it really was a suicidal selection and set up.

I said after I saw the team that Brentford would get alot of joy out of bypassing our press playing high balls towards martinez and working of the second balls. And they really did.

I'm all for progressive football but you still have to be prepared to deal with the physicality, directness and intensity of PL football, the team put out yesterday couldn't deal with it. Thats on ten hag and I hope he has learnt a valuable lesson.
 
rpitroda said:
I get it. But I view it another way - any deviation only reduces the burden that we are trying to place on our owners to sort this out. You’re right in that ETH might not be able to survive it but thinking about the club and not ETH, is that not a better outcome? It would serve to show the board there is no other way. And it would significantly improve the next managers chances of forcing a full rebuild. I like you have no faith in our board but that’s also why I can’t see any other way other than ramming it down their throats that it needs to happen. If we bend again to these players and how we operate to improve our performances now, we are only giving them an easy way out.

If our board had shown a desire to make fundamental change, then I would immediately back the approach you’re suggesting because I’d know even if things improved we were committed to making things right long term. But we aren’t. And so doing so now would only serve to continue this shit show we’ve got going on.
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I can't follow that logic, tbh. EtH doing badly gives them an easy way out of not having to do anything, just blame the Manager, get in the next.

In my working experience, cultural change can seldom be enforced overnight but is a gradual process, like I said if we had a CEO who would really know what to do he could enforce the cultural change fast by hiring the right staff and putting them into positions of power, unfortunately we don't have that in Arnold. Instead, now EtH needs to survive to get as many people at the club on his side and follow his philosophy and his survive is strongly connected with getting this philosophy, the progressive football, to be part of the club. Imagine he gets fired in March, we then again have to make an interims choice, only to get a new man in a couple of months later. Given the history of decision-making with our board, it's far from certain they would hire someone with a similar approach to football as ten Hag, but instead go for someone more pragmatic and old school again. Which would reset every once again.

I see ten Hags survival to be central to any hope of getting our club to play a more progressive style of football again.
 
NoLogo said:
I can't follow that logic, tbh. EtH doing badly gives them an easy way out of not having to do anything, just blame the Manager, get in the next.

In my working experience, cultural change can seldom be enforced overnight but is a gradual process, like I said if we had a CEO who would really know what to do he could enforce the cultural change fast by hiring the right staff and putting them into positions of power, unfortunately we don't have that in Arnold. Instead, now EtH needs to survive to get as many people at the club on his side and follow his philosophy and his survive is strongly connected with getting this philosophy, the progressive football, to be part of the club. Imagine he gets fired in March, we then again have to make an interims choice, only to get a new man in a couple of months later. Given the history of decision-making with our board, it's far from certain they would hire someone with a similar approach to football as ten Hag, but instead go for someone more pragmatic and old school again. Which would reset every once again.

I see ten Hags survival to be central to any hope of getting our club to play a more progressive style of football again.
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I disagree. Well, sort off. I agree cultural change must ultimately trickle down from the tone at the top. But ETH’s survival doesn’t mean anything in and of itself. He doesn’t hire people above him.

I think we agree on what needs to happen. Just disagree on the means. To my mind and from experience, you can’t passively and slowly force change from within if you’re not of seniority to enact it. If the owners don’t want to change then any small moves you try and make will just be negated. ETH has to bluntly force it. Force the club into a position that they simply don’t have a choice. It may get him sacked, so might not be in his interest. But for us as fans it’s what we should want because even if he gets sacked, it deepens the belief of everyone that change is needed and increases the pressure of revolt which, in turn, will put the owners in a position that it’s the only tenable option even if they don’t want it.
 
rpitroda said:
I disagree. Well, sort off. I agree cultural change must ultimately trickle down from the tone at the top. But ETH’s survival doesn’t mean anything in and of itself. He doesn’t hire people above him.

I think we agree on what needs to happen. Just disagree on the means. To my mind and from experience, you can’t passively and slowly force change from within if you’re not of seniority to enact it. If the owners don’t want to change then any small moves you try and make will just be negated. ETH has to bluntly force it. Force the club into a position that they simply don’t have a choice. It may get him sacked, so might not be in his interest. But for us as fans it’s what we should want because even if he gets sacked, it deepens the belief of everyone that change is needed and increases the pressure of revolt which, in turn, will put the owners in a position that it’s the only tenable option even if they don’t want it.
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No doubt, he needs to increase the pressure, but in how I guess is where we differ, I simply don't think he will be in any position to make demands to the board if he keeps losing the next 3 to 5 games.
 
I haven't read the OP or any of the thread so my post may be disarmingly out of context but here's my two cents based on just the thread title :smirk:..

I think ETH may have to play a bit more pragmatically now. Based on the current squad (i.e I'm not counting any potential transfers coming in atm), I would got with a 4-2-3-1 and go with a Martinez (who looks like a combative, on the ground duel type of player, who can also pass very well) with Fred and then pick one of either Eriksen (my first choice atm), Bruno or VDB. Fred and Martinez is a 'pretty good' duo imo. It won't fix all of our issues but ETH can still realistically play his game around these parameters.

We'll still be stuck with De Gea and even then I'm not against playing Heaton but the back four should definitely contain a fit Varane and Malacia as first choice.
 
I said this a couple of years ago. The squad is best fitted to a low block counter attacking setup and that is why we had our best showing under Ole in those 2 years (and many people were blaming the manager for tactical incompetence, when it was the opposite) and, then fail very badly when moving to a more progressive play.

If we don't get at least 3 or so more players, then ETH will have to accept this reality or else be in danger of losing his job.
 
Absolutely not. This kind of thinking is the Glazers' wet dream.

Spend now and get the players he needs and feck off the dross like Maguire, Rashford, Shaw, McTominay.
 
Rightnr said:
Absolutely not. This kind of thinking is the Glazers' wet dream.

Spend now and get the players he needs and feck off the dross like Maguire, Rashford, Shaw, McTominay.
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Yeah they love that cheap way out
 
We've seen plenty of clubs adapt to progressive football successfully with a lot less resources. It's same as "cannot build muscle while losing fat" nonsense.
 
Tibs said:
Although I can understand the point being made in the OP, I disagree. I say feck it and lets go all in with Ten Hag Ball

The problem we've had for years is when we try to implement a style, it goes wrong, and we just play it safe and hope for the best. Yes, one season is all came together for Ole, but what did we ultimately win? Nothing.

Then when we try and progress, we fall apart again.

We need to stick with it, sign the appropriate players, and if that means we finish 9th, then so be it. At least we are slowly moving towards a team that can actually challenge and win things, with players who aren't mentally weak - not including Ronaldo and Varane in that - with players who can fecking run, and complete simple tasks such as passing the ball to a team mate.

Our shitness in part is due to us not pushing and challenging these players to improve! They play like dog shit, we play it safe.

I back Ten Hag completely
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I appreciate your optimism and commitment to zee filosophy. You've won me over. Better to try and fail than to not bother at all.
 
The problem is our managers are afraid of
Calling shit players shit in public, and even more they are afraid to bench them.

ETH could now send Maguire, de Gea, McTominay, Rashford to reserves and to publicly state that they are utter rubbish, and such level of performance is unacceptable - instead he continues to tell media how “Rashford is not for sale”

Tolerating mediocrity doesn’t yield Positive results, ever
 
I don’t care much about which style we play as long as we have a style and win, especially against other top teams.

That’s why I appreciated our world class counterattack football against City, Pool, Chelsea, Tottenham during Ole’s spell; most entertaining football since SAF.

In the same period we played terrible possession play against weaker teams. Those games were like watching painting dry:o

Only time I enjoy possession football is when watching Barca, RM, City and PSG, and that says all about players required to play entertaining possession play. United can only dream about entertaining possession play with our existing squad.
 
Longshanks said:
Scott? I'm not sure Scott could of.made a mistake leading to a goal from the bench?

Poor play from Ronaldo loosing the ball in a dangerous area, leading to the shot followed up by a truly awful piece of goalkeeping by de gea led to the first goal.

The second is all about de geas inability to be involved with playing the ball out from back. Another very poor piece of play from our very highly paid GK.

But the fact that up to that point we had failed to get any control and impose ourselves on the game was because ten hag thought he could get away with a very lite midfield three of bruno, eriksen and Fred aswell as playing a very small CB away at Brentford. The mistakes were poor but it really was a suicidal selection and set up.

I said after I saw the team that Brentford would get alot of joy out of bypassing our press playing high balls towards martinez and working of the second balls. And they really did.

I'm all for progressive football but you still have to be prepared to deal with the physicality, directness and intensity of PL football, the team put out yesterday couldn't deal with it. Thats on ten hag and I hope he has learnt a valuable lesson.
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McTominay cost us a goal last week and lost the ball again several times Saturday.
Just mentioned him as an example.

We did not match the work rate of Brentford. Then tactics and set ups don‘t matter, if they are winning every duel and every loose ball.

I‘m sure Ten Hag knew what Brentford was going to do, but the players could not execute the game plan. The mistakes were paralyzing.
 
Abandoning the game plan got the last two managers sacked. Abandoning the players and replacing them with ones capable of executing the plan will get us back to where we belong.
 
NLunited said:
McTominay cost us a goal last week and lost the ball again several times Saturday.
Just mentioned him as an example.

We did not match the work rate of Brentford. Then tactics and set ups don‘t matter, if they are winning every duel and every loose ball.

I‘m sure Ten Hag knew what Brentford was going to do, but the players could not execute the game plan. The mistakes were paralyzing.
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We lost every duel and every loose ball because the team we put out wasn't in anyway set up to cope with Brentford's aggression and physicality. In what world is a midfield three of bruno, eriksen and Fred ever gonna cope with the rough and tumble of a PL midfield battle.

Maybe if we didn't add to the issue with a 5ft 9 CB who was unable to clear high balls meaning there was a whole array of loose balls and duels being contested right infront of our defensive line they may of stood a chance, but I still think we would of lost too many 50/50s and been too weak to gain any form of control.

ETH will have to learn to respect the physical aspect of the PL, he will have to learn that you have to earn the right to play football by winning the physical battle in the PL.
 
We need ETH to hold his nerve and keep with the philosophy which is why we brought him in the first place. Otherwise, what is the point of having this type of manager. He needs to be given the autonomy and time to address and instil a change in this group. There will be casualties but for the love of god let’s start with some of these overpaid characterless charlatans first.

The manager and the way he wants to play should be aligned with the clubs culture and ambition and should not at this time be adapted because our players don’t want/ can’t compete or match the energy and desire of the the less talented opposition. If they can’t/ won’t let’s start playing some of the younger hungrier players that will at the very least and fight for the badge each and every second of every game.

The challenge I do see however is the players in recent years have become more important than the manager due to the value they hold as assets to our club and owners. Whilst I am all for dropping every underperforming player from the squad from an ownership perspective this would need them to start prioritising a sporting change in culture away from the value some of these so called stars hold in terms of dollar value and marketing opportunities. That under the current ownership model seems unlikely.
 
#W203_Red said:
We need ETH to hold his nerve and keep with the philosophy which is why we brought him in the first place. Otherwise, what is the point of having this type of manager.
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The point is to make the transition in a calmer, more considered method than many fans seem to want right now.

I genuinely fear that if we play the same system we have in the first two games we could finish bottom five. Who loses 4-0 to Brentford? Who loses 4-1 to Watford or Brighton? Nobody but us.

Plus, much as I would like us to bin every player and play the kids, if we did do that we would definitely be in a relegation scrap and we would risk ruining some of them for good when they could otherwise have had promising careers with us.

Far better, as I argue in the OP, to stop with the tika-taka in our own penalty area for now and to stop asking the midfield two to recieve the ball in deep positions. Lets do what 16/17 of the other PL teams do, which is get the ball forward quickly when we have it and get nine behind it in a middle-block when we lose it.

Do that and we can still finish top six this season. Then its a case of bringing in a GK, a RB, two CMs, an AML and a CF at the earliest opportunity.

Personally I dont see what the big deal is. The goal of any manager should be to get the best results you can with a given team. If our team are best suited to playing solid, counter-attacking football, then do that until you have the raw materials to do something different/more progressive.

I guarantee half the people criticising this more pragmatic approach wanted Conte and/or still love Jose Mourinho. They certainly would have been pragmatic with this team
 
We're shit so no point in trying to compete with superior opponents.Hang in the the game(s) and don't get beat first of all.Then when everyone knows what the feck they should be doing/we get the right players in, we can expand.Simple.
 
marc1_007 said:
Over the last two seasons when we have been terrible, the players who have played the most and consistently been in the starting line-up have been De Gea, Maguire, Shaw, Fred, McTominay, Bruno, Rashford.
Out of these players probably only Luke Shaw can be classed as being technically sound but his issues have always been tactical (Remember when Mourinho said he had to coach him for the whole 90 minutes in a game).
De Gea might be a good shot stopper but he is woeful with his feet and always has one of those moments where you feel like Roy Keane and want to punch him (Remember him lying in the foetal position in the middle of his goal against arsenal last season because he had his foot stepped on by Fred).
Maguire just makes me cringe everytime I see him play and I always think a mistake is coming from him.

Fred always gives the ball away and lacks any kind of strength to play in a physical league like the premier league.
Watching McTominay makes me want to cry, this guy can not pass the ball five yards forward and he is forever trying to run with the ball as if he is Gerrard or Toure, but everytime he does it, not only does he run with his head down with no awareness of what's going on around him, he literally loses the ball every time he runs with it, Finally on McTominay, how does a player that cannot get a game for Scotland in midfield be Manchester United's first choice midfielder (someone please help me make any sense of that).

I'm just done with Bruno, he's always shooting or trying an exotic pass, and he basically always loses the ball as soon as he's pressed, I always wonder what people are watching when they say he should play in a false nine, and I go back to the Brighton game when the ball was cut back to him and he hit it in to row Z and then yesterday when he was set up on the edge of the area, using the same technique, he did exactly the same thing. I believe there was a reason why none of the big clubs were in for him before he joined us and I have not heard about any big clubs being interested in him since he joined us, the clueless board gave him a contract extension when they held all the leverage, I just don't understand it.

And then we come to Marcus Rashford, there is nothing I like about his game, he has no spatial awareness, always plays with his head down, always runs in to blind alleys (Headless chicken vibes), can't make a five yard pass, he can't cross, his heading ability might be the worst I have ever seen in my life, this guy jumps for the ball and then always avoids heading it very comical to look at, people says he has a good shot on him, but i'd like to ask how many goals he has scored from outside the box in his career, i'll be shocked if he has scored up to five, There is nothing technical about his game and he has been a tactical disaster for two years now, he never helps his full back, he's rarely ever aware of the full back overlapping, in my opinion, he's just not a good footballer (Pace Merchant vibes ) and if I was Ten Hag, I will accept PSG's offer without a second thought.

Considering that these are the players that have been in a line-up that has been CONSISTENTLY Awful for nearly two years now, then there should be no hesitation on Ten Hags part to replace them in the line-up afterall how much worse can it get than this.

Malacia in for Shaw, Varane in for Maguire, Garner in for McTominay, Iqbal or Savage in for Fred, Eriksen or Van de Beek in for Bruno and Garnacho in for Rashford. With DeGea, I feel like we have to tolerate him for the season because i am not sure we have anyone better right now. All these replacement players I am sure will be looking for an opportunity to stake a claim in the starting line-up and will be hungry for a chance to impress because the starters have been a let-down for a long time now and we should be looking to transfer them out of the club but right now, they should be on the bench and then the line-up can then sort itself out afterwards depending on transfers we are able to complete before the end of the window.
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Spot on, I wish ETH has the balls to drop these players. As long as he continues to be tolerate to these underperformed players then it is his downfall. He will be out of job pretty soon.
 
ti vu said:
By what you said, then you propose going through stage of progress, then we just appointed the wrong manager. The step should be Brendan Rodger, Mancini, Pellegrini, Pochettino, Tuchel... before we appoint a more purist manager mould of Pep, Klopp.

And yes. We have no proper DoF to see through this progress.
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But United have spent as much as City and Liverpool, and have little to show for it. Spending hundreds of millions on the wrong players (or players who turned out to be wrong), whereas a careful, measured assessment of the first team squad, and what was needed in every part of the pitch would have meant fewer vanity signings but a more balanced team. I find it strange that the Glazers are so vilified when they have bankrolled this spending. Yes, they bought the club by loading their debt on it, and yes they are parasites constantly siphoning off money in the form of 'consultancy fees', but their big mistake was not to have a football man in charge of recruitment, carefully assessing what was needed and who they could buy who would fit the bill.
 
Adamsk7 said:
Abandoning the game plan got the last two managers sacked. Abandoning the players and replacing them with ones capable of executing the plan will get us back to where we belong.
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He hasn't got the funds to abandon them, sadly we are very close to hitting rock bottom and not coming back either
 
ETH can set up the team anyway he wants. If we don't play his style, there is no point hiring him. If he fails, he fails.
 
Apparently part of the game plan was to bypass the Brentford press with the long ball, because they played with an unusual defense. Not what happened.
 
Lentwood said:
Why do people keep saying 'two games' as if the last decade didn't happen?

Let's take the point on DDG for example, I have watched almost every single game of club football DDG has played over the last decade.

Therefore, my observation that DDG struggles to play progressive football is not based on the evidence of two games, it's based on the evidence of a decades-worth of football.

I could say the same about Ronaldo, McTominay, Fred etc...I don't need to sit through another 58-games of yet another manager to know that they can't play a fluid, possession-based, high-line, high-press based system
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If this is your logic, whatever pragmatism you want to introduce, these players have already proven they cannot do that either. Hence why they got Ole and Ralf playing similar awful football. I don't know why you ignore this. Your temporary step back isn't some foolproof plan.
 
OP one of the few posters not deluding themselves from reality,

Guardiola would not be able to play progressive football with these players.
 
Good analysis. I think what we should abondon is the expectation of result this season. We should let EtH cultivate his own style and individuals to play his football. We shouldn't let the commercial side of the club to dominate the football side again.
 
Crapper John said:
But United have spent as much as City and Liverpool, and have little to show for it. Spending hundreds of millions on the wrong players (or players who turned out to be wrong), whereas a careful, measured assessment of the first team squad, and what was needed in every part of the pitch would have meant fewer vanity signings but a more balanced team. I find it strange that the Glazers are so vilified when they have bankrolled this spending. Yes, they bought the club by loading their debt on it, and yes they are parasites constantly siphoning off money in the form of 'consultancy fees', but their big mistake was not to have a football man in charge of recruitment, carefully assessing what was needed and who they could buy who would fit the bill.
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You only look at fee wage on money vs football success, but fail to realize on commercial, brand side of bussiness, player like Pogba, Ronaldo, even Rashford... can help Man United exposure. Even Martial got upset when his no 9 was taken away by Zlatan affecting his AM9 brand. There seems to be a pattern with how the businessmen at the club is more tolerate toward our brand players, where as other clubs can be very ruthless with this kind of high earning underperformers.
 
Actually time to abandon aspirations of a top-4 finish, back a coach like ETH and bury non performing players. DDG was a disgrace in the last game, no shame in pointing it out. Same goes for shaw.
 
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I disagree. The transformation under Ten Hag is going to take time. We need to drop any pre-determined expectations for the season and let him do his job. He will eventually weed out the players worth keeping and phase out the ones that aren't.

We finally have the proper manager who has a history of playing progressive football but unfortunately implementing that kind of style into a side that has done nothing but play counter-attacking football for approaching a decade will not be a quick or easy fix.
 
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