Time to abandon "progressive" football...until we fix the foundations

Why can't we do what everyone else does? Execute a long term plan and recruit players that can play together and suit the system and style of play. It's not that hard. The constant dithering is what constantly gets us into problems. It would be beneficial if players could be useful for longer than a single manager's tenure.

I get being pragmatic until the pieces are there, but we keep being pragmatic without getting the pieces.
 
JeffFromHK said:
Not that WE can't play progressive football, it is De Gea, Maguire, Shaw, Rashford, Fred, McTominay, Dalot, etc that can't play progressive footballer.

Spot that difference and sort out your basic logic.

Without "progressive football" it will be almost impossible for us to win a single league title in the next 20 years and we will be doomed to fall further from grace and be less relevant in football. Stop that short term mentality like those politicans do.
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Have you read the post, can I ask?
 
It would be surely wrong to just abandon progressive football. But I agree that the current squad isn't able to pull it off like for example City at the moment. What this squad needs is a clear way how to move from what they are able to do now to what they should be able to do. And I agree with the OP that it can be necessary to not try to do everything in a proactive way right now, but slowy adjust to come close to it.
 
We either commit to through a clear strategy that runs through scouting, recruitment, youth team and first team coaching and match day practice - or we don't.

It's not the 90s anymore.
 
Lentwood said:
Hang on @amolbhatia50k @Pexbo @Giggsyking ....how is it 'two games'?

We have 12-months evidence at least that this squad isn't equipped to play progressive football.

I'm not asking ETH to change his philosophy I am asking him to be pragmatic and play more conservatively whilst slowly accumulating the RIGHT players over the course of the next four or five windows

That sounds like common-sense to me!

EDIT | loads of people saying 'change the players'....so you agree with me! Yes, change the players, but that's not going to happen in one window or even two windows!
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People in the club believe that these bunch of mediocre players can play progressive football and refuse to make important changes. Let us be exposed a bit more. We were embarrassed by Liverpool and City and the players response was to down tools for the next manager. Who eventually did go back to play the whatever football we were playing before and they didn't respond.

Most of these players are broken anyway. There is no turning back to a plan to accommodate them. It's far better to start using youth players and those players who can adapt to a new system. We are not going to be top 4 anyway, no matter what kind of system we play.
 
golden_blunder said:
Yes you stick with the style of football that you wish to implement. You don’t get hired for that then implement something else. That’s giving into the players. They need to know this is the style. Shit or get off the pot. If we have to throw some young players into the mix then so be it.
i think we need to adjust fan expectations to having patience. There are no quick fixes
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How is it 'giving into the players'? I don't understand that logic. It's OK keep slating the players, calling them names, hurling abuse at them, accusing them of lacking character, accusing them of not trying...but fundamentally the results are terrible because they cannot do what they are being asked to do! They're not good enough. I, for example, think Fred and Rashford are garbage...but how angry can I be at them for just not being very good?

Henceforth...I think we all agree that when and if we want to play progressive football, we need a new squad...and it will take three or four windows to get to a position were we can realistically attempt it. That's not saying all 23 need to be perfect, but you need the framework at least, or you get absolutely destroyed as we have been doing
 
Laurencio said:
Why can't we do what everyone else does? Execute a long term plan and recruit players that can play together and suit the system and style of play. It's not that hard. The constant dithering is what constantly gets us into problems. It would be beneficial if players could be useful for longer than a single manager's tenure.

I get being pragmatic until the pieces are there, but we keep being pragmatic without getting the pieces.
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Is that not exactly what I was advocating, with the simple difference being we reign it in until we DO have at least some of the foundations in-place?
 
Garethw said:
Any top manager worth his salt is not going to abandon his football philosophy two games into a season.

Any player that cannot get on board with the managers system should be dropped. Play a side full of youth players even if it means finishing 15th.

I’m sick of seeing managers bending to the whim of mediocre players like Rashford, Dalot, Maguire, McTominay, Shaw and most of the bloody squad.

They need to know that if they can’t adapt then they are finished here.
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He’s be sacked

so not a great idea
 
These players also did not play well under more pragmatic football (Ole and Ralf). So abandoning it for the short term isn't going to work either. We have all of last season as proof.
 
BuzzKillington said:
Have we been attempting to play progressive football so far this season? I’ve not seen much of it since the Liverpool friendly tbh.
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The problem for us is that our attempts to play more progressive ends just outside our box where our players get caught under the pressure and makes mistakes. Thats why it feels we are not doing it.
 
Just 2 games. It's going to get worse. It will be a painful journey. If you don't have the patience, stay out of it.

So, absolutely No. It will take time.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Why should the development of the collective suffer because a few players are unsuited? Sign three players asap who fit the vision and keep getting better at through repetition.
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rpitroda said:
No. There are so many issues with this approach. Not least that it’s failed so far.
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Managers need to be able to adapt to the player material at hand. I know on paper it probably looked to ten Hag as if he would inherit a good team, but the problem is he got a team full of mid-table quality. Now he can either start adapting to this truth or keep trying to play like Ajax who were absolute top dog in their league, but I guarantee, if he keeps on doing that we are going to be still in relegation place come December.

There is another thing, ten Hag is very well capable of playing more defensive, counter-attacking orientated football. He did that perfectly fine with Utrecht against the big teams in the league. Ten Hag, and by your reactions a lot of our fans need to realize that we are not in a position of power anymore, we are a bog average mid-table PL team now and playing like big dogs will get us slaughtered many more times this season.

I would advocate for ten Hag to take a more conservative approach for now, make certain the recruitment team can get the right deals for a more progressive style over the next couple of years and slowly start to implement it. Against the lower table teams that only sit back, we can already practice this style, but against the other teams we need to be more pragmatic or ten Hag won't survive the season. And no stubbornness won't solve our problems, spot on transfers for players that fit the league and the style that ten Hag wants to play will.
 
Pure and utter cowardice.

As expected in a world where everything is now now now...

You don't change the philosophy of a club over night and you especially don't change it when you still have 95% of the players from the previous season.

It's gonna be a bumpy road this season, we may not even make top 6, but if that is what is needed to finally make it to the other side as a club then it is worth it.
 
Do you mean to find a suitable system for what we currently have while slowly building our academy and new signings for progressive football?

This make sense when Ole was here and the players were still young and have a lot of credit with the fans, but right now no. From then till now, which players can't play progressive football? Maybe DDG, Maguire, Shaw, AWB, Bruno, Rashford, McFred?

All which most fans thought should be upgraded upon. Do we want to pander to them?

But say we go for it, revert to a type of football we think they are suitable but if they fail then what? Our transfer strategy needs to change, hopefully then we would not have sign too many players that the next manager needs to offload and our academy players need to learn to play differently.

All for 8 players that cannot play modern football? I rather we suck now, and keep faith , play kids if needs be.
 
Our players can't do it. Even with a number of new signings, at least half the squad can't play in this way, and its not realistic to replace half the squad in one window.

So, two choices:

1. Bin off anyone who can't play this way and play the youngsters or squad outcasts who fit the style. Extremely risky and most might end up turning out like McNair, Blackett and Fosu-Mensah etc when LVG picked them over established first teamers.

2. Adjust the tactics to play to the strengths of our current squad.

I think it needs to be a mix of the two really, a transition that is made over time towards an end result.
 
Lentwood said:
How is it 'giving into the players'? I don't understand that logic. It's OK keep slating the players, calling them names, hurling abuse at them, accusing them of lacking character, accusing them of not trying...but fundamentally the results are terrible because they cannot do what they are being asked to do! They're not good enough. I, for example, think Fred and Rashford are garbage...but how angry can I be at them for just not being very good?

Henceforth...I think we all agree that when and if we want to play progressive football, we need a new squad...and it will take three or four windows to get to a position were we can realistically attempt it. That's not saying all 23 need to be perfect, but you need the framework at least, or you get absolutely destroyed as we have been doing
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Yes we need new players but you don’t fundamentally change away from the coaching philosophy. How do players learn? say we buy in 2 players used to progressive football then you are expecting them to play in a different way. Just no
We need to get better at the recruitment side for sure.
 
Nothing to do with the style. This bunch have run 14km less then Brentford. They can’t give a sh*t, that’s the truth.
 
Completely agree with the OP. Only try to play a certain style once we have the players who can do it. Trying to do it until that point is the height of arrogance.
 
Agree completely with the op. If we insist on playing cute and tidy from the back teams will rip us a new one week in week out. Most teams in the league are stronger than Brentford who will be happy to stay up this year.

Since we are chasing a physical nr 9 i get the feeling that Erik realizes the limitations of the squad and will try to adapt.

I think a new keeper could change a lot for us. Remember how much difference VDS made for the team when he came in.
Honestly liked how we played when we had Romero in goal as well.
 
golden_blunder said:
Yes we need new players but you don’t fundamentally change away from the coaching philosophy. How do players learn? say we buy in 2 players used to progressive football then you are expecting them to play in a different way. Just no
We need to get better at the recruitment side for sure.
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Yeah but we're not talking about reverting to some kind of 6-5-0 long-ball formation. We're just dropping a bit deeper, playing more compact and pressing from the middle. It's not as if we'd completely ruin new signings by asking them to play a bit more conservatively in matches, I saw SAF do it so many times. How often did we see the 4-5-1 with Rooney on the left-wing and a midfield three of Park, Carrick and Fletcher, for example, in big games or away games?

So I agree with you, we need to be adding two or three players each window who can play the 'right' style and remove the players who can't....but were we disagree (I think) is that I can't see the point in taking any further abject humiliations trying to play a style we fundamentally can't play yet.

We need to walk before we can run. At this stage, we're just taking punishment for punishments' sake
 
NoLogo said:
Managers need to be able to adapt to the player material at hand. I know on paper it probably looked to ten Hag as if he would inherit a good team, but the problem is he got a team full of mid-table quality. Now he can either start adapting to this truth or keep trying to play like Ajax who were absolute top dog in their league, but I guarantee, if he keeps on doing that we are going to be still in relegation place come December.

There is another thing, ten Hag is very well capable of playing more defensive, counter-attacking orientated football. He did that perfectly fine with Utrecht against the big teams in the league. Ten Hag, and by your reactions a lot of our fans need to realize that we are not in a position of power anymore, we are a bog average mid-table PL team now and playing like big dogs will get us slaughtered many more times this season.

I would advocate for ten Hag to take a more conservative approach for now, make certain the recruitment team can get the right deals for a more progressive style over the next couple of years and slowly start to implement it. Against the lower table teams that only sit back, we can already practice this style, but against the other teams we need to be more pragmatic or ten Hag won't survive the season. And no stubbornness won't solve our problems, spot on transfers for players that fit the league and the style that ten Hag wants to play will.
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I understand all of what you’ve written but no, I disagree. Change and transition is one of the hardest thing to achieve in an organisation. It is human nature to resist change.

What you’re advocating gets us better results today. But to achieve what? We will finish outside the top 6 regardless of what type of football we play, so who cares if we finish 7th or 15th? Because this season isn’t about results and points.

For too long we’ve put change on hold at risk of costing us results at the present time. No. The time for real fundamental change is now. And the more we go for this “conservative, pragmatic” approach, the more we allow a culture to bed in (if it couldn’t be any more already) that they don’t need to change because people around them will adapt to them. We should stand firm that we need to progress our football. Players either get on board and try and learn. Or they don’t and should be firmly shown the exit door. Change takes ruthlessness. But it takes guts and perseverance. Any shred of doubt in our determination to enact change will be viewed as a weakness to exploit to prevent it happening.
 
This rebuild will take months, maybe years, to finish. Let's not bottle it after two games.
 
progressive football is fine, but you need the right players for it.

Also, we don't seem capable of making the decision of when to go long and when to build up. Teams just by default run like madmen pressing us high because they know we will wilt under the pressure.

Yet we still insist on playing it short at those moments.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
So start playing progressive football three years later. That's not how it works. You start now and keep adding players to improve how well it works.
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This! Nail on the head. I’ve just said as much in the ETH thread. How can a manger access if a player is capable of playing his style of football and within his system, if he’s asked to abandon that system at the first hurdle? Give the man time through thick and thin. If he hasn’t made any progress by Christmas then fair enough let’s assess but until then just get behind the man.
 
Did Klopp or Pep do this? No, they stuck with it and bought players who could play in their system

Football isn't rocket science. The blueprint for how to run a successful club and build a successful team is already there. I mean ffs Ten Hag had it at Ajax. Why do we have to ignore what works for other clubs and try to fumble our way to trying to find our own successful formula? It's bonkers. This chopping and changing mentality we've had for years, with no plan or strategy is plain stupid
 
Lentwood said:
Who said anything about getting rid of ETH? Where has this 'two games' come from? I watched 60 games last season that proved we couldn't play progressive football, did you miss that?
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How were we playing progressive football last season? Ole was counter attacking and RR was trying desperately to implement a pressing game. Progressive football only started with ETH and will take time.

Quote from Jonathan Wilson article published yesterday on The Guardian

"...Ralf Rangnick last season despaired of the lack of basic tactical understanding in the squad; most, he said, had simply never been drilled in ball-oriented pressing. He spent half an hour working one-on-one with one high-profile player, thought he made a breakthrough, but then watched him produce his worst performance of the season in the following match..."

This is the scale of the task ETH is facing. A squad which needs a mass clearout. Players who dont undestand the basics of pressing and then trying to implement a progressive game on top of that. It will take hours and hours and months in the training ground to get it to work. Klopp struggled in his first 18 months at liverpool.
 
Lentwood said:
I think there is some confusion about what I am saying here....so many people are replying saying 'change the players', which I 100% agree with...that's the entire point of my post! The trouble is, so many of you think that's really easy to do, as if we can just buy 15 players at the level required in in two windows.

Clearly we need new players, but what if it takes four or five windows to get there? Do we stick dogmatically to committing footballing suicide every week until then?
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RR thought you could change most of the squad in two windows. But what does a guy whos speciality is building up football clubs know?
 
I'm starting to worry he's a bit like Pep and would rather lose with honour than win dirty.
 
No. We should continue. Stick with the manager. Those who can't adapt need to be tossed out
 
We need to get rid of the players that cannot perform this style of football.
 
We need to do the opposite. In some way, I’m relieved we’ve had these two losses. It lowers expectations and gives us freedom to actually try and build something sustainable. Of course I would have loved to see good results, free flowing football and CL next season, but I don’t think anybody will be expecting that of us anymore so we might as well spend this season on implementing EtH’s system, blood in new players and youngsters, identify deadwood and gel as a team.

As a club we’ve been desperately trying to cling on to our legacy for the past decade. We’ve bought star players and tried several different manager profiles. However, we’ve never done a rebuild. Nobody’s has had the chance to start over. Here is a chance to do just that. Unfortunately, it’s not gonna be easy with the Glazers at the helm.
 
No way. We must attempt play modern football whatever it takes. Put on some youngsters, I don’t care.
OP, don’t you realize that the problem is that we are still playing Fergieball? Only SAF could do it properly and that was eternity ago. In modern football, only Ancelotti can pull that trick. We should have gone for him for immediate success. That would be only a short term solution.
Moyes, Jose and Ole just tried to copy what SAF did in 2000s. They bought specific players who thrive in counter attack teams. Now we have a counter attacking team with outdated football and face a monumental task to change things.
First thing need to be changed - the brand of football no matter what takes. If you don’t do this our crisis will last for decades.
 
rpitroda said:
I understand all of what you’ve written but no, I disagree. Change and transition is one of the hardest thing to achieve in an organisation. It is human nature to resist change.

What you’re advocating gets us better results today. But to achieve what? We will finish outside the top 6 regardless of what type of football we play, so who cares if we finish 7th or 15th? Because this season isn’t about results and points.

For too long we’ve put change on hold at risk of costing us results at the present time. No. The time for real fundamental change is now. And the more we go for this “conservative, pragmatic” approach, the more we allow a culture to bed in (if it couldn’t be any more already) that they don’t need to change because people around them will adapt to them. We should stand firm that we need to progress our football. Players either get on board and try and learn. Or they don’t and should be firmly shown the exit door. Change takes ruthlessness. But it takes guts and perseverance. Any shred of doubt in our determination to enact change will be viewed as a weakness to exploit to prevent it happening.
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In principle, you are right, but the reality is, EtH wouldn't survive a 15th place, no chance. The pressure from the media and the fans would be too high and the people in charge of this club would fold to the outside pressure as they always do.

That's why I think it first has to be about stabilizing a sinking ship, there is no use in sticking to your principles if it ends up costing the coach his job. EtH now needs to be absolute clear with the board, if we don't manage to bring in the right players until the end of the window and in the following 3+ transfer windows there is no chance of a rebuild.

I also don't buy into the idea that it simply takes better coaching that EtH will bring to the team to fix it. Some of our players are simply too slow for the modern game. Some don't have the technical requirements to deal with pressing, and some give up the second things go only a tiny way south. Of course, we even have players who show all of these characteristics together, yes I'm looking at you Harry.
 
We’ve hired a coach who is known for his style of play… granted he will , just like Pep or Klopp, have to tweak it to suit the league and his players but no you don’t hire a chef who you think has the potential to cook high end fine dining French cuisine and then say to him actually do some fry cooking instead.

Also remember we’ve hired someone who is a head coach, which is what most people are these days. Arguably at the high end only Klopp has the manager characteristic but even he at Liverpool probably performs more as a head coach with some manager say.
 
I think you have to commit to the style of play you want from day #1 and live with the growing pains. No half measures, no delayed implementation. Because while that may make short term results worse, it also means new players aren't causing the team to try and adapt their approach as much subsequently.

However we're lucky in that regard in that for all he plays progressive football, ETH is a pragmatist in terms of how he goes about it. In yesterday's game example it's not like he was insisting we try to play the ball through defence at all costs. The plan was for us to go long, we just failed to do so at key moments. And we're being linked with big, physical CFs for a reason, so we can take that approach more often and with greater success.
 
Chill
Look at Arsenal, they started horrible last season. But you see a clear pattern in their play now. And I'm not saying they are ready to fight for the title, but they trusted Arteta and have given him time. They are a better place than us at the moment.
Trust ten Hag, there is a reason why he got hired. And lt him and the staff do their work. It will improve.
 
Doesn't make sense, as a club it's the right way to move forward.

Stick with it, take the mistakes as the happen and it'll weed out those not capable of playing that way.
 
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