Time to abandon "progressive" football...until we fix the foundations

crossy1686 said:
How about we stop pandering to players who aren't good enough to wear the shirt?
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Why and how is it 'pandering'? I have seen that word used multiple times but I don't get it in this context.

'Pandering' would be if the players were saying things like "we don't like this style of football", so we changed it for them.

The players just not being capable of playing this type of football and therefore tweaking the set-up is not 'pandering', it's a sensible, pragmatic approach and used to be called 'good management'.

I'll say this again....I have been really, really critical of De Gea at times, I think he's a really poor GK. However, I can't accuse him of not trying/not caring when he makes mistakes with his feet, when we know he's not very good with his feet and we keep asking him to try to play with his feet!

See my point? Just 'willing' De Gea to be able to do something isn't enough...and I could apply that to basically every player in the squad. Do you think De Gea wants to make mistakes? He looked absolutely shattered in that interview yesterday. As much as I don't rate him, I felt for him because his confidence must be rock-bottom
 
Here is what I think. This team was built around taking pressure in and hit back with quick counter attacking football. It was done like that as it requires less technical players and tactical acumen to do so. To change such system it requires a horde of new players which include

a- A goalkeeper that has decent contribution of the ball and can dominate the box
b- Quick CBs with great distribution of the ball
c- FBs that can move forward with the ball but are able to trail back
d- hardworking CMs who can distribute the ball efficiently
e- a creative and hardworking forward line

We only have 4-5 players capable of playing that game.

In my opinion, the only way forward is to revert to a less gung-ho style of game. Meanwhile we have to hire a DOF and a head of recruitment who can handle a high staff turnover both ins and outs.
 
Rayman96 said:
We are not playing progressive football at all unless you count the pissing about at the back conceding goals as progressive.
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Well that is our attempt at playing it out from the back. On the ground. Playing modern football. Maybe we can call it progressive.
Everytime we try it we get into atleast some problems because De Geas distribution and decisionmaking is below par and our cm’s are quite poor at these things.
 
Lentwood said:
Why and how is it 'pandering'? I have seen that word used multiple times but I don't get it in this context.

'Pandering' would be if the players were saying things like "we don't like this style of football", so we changed it for them.

The players just not being capable of playing this type of football and therefore tweaking the set-up is not 'pandering', it's a sensible, pragmatic approach and used to be called 'good management'.

I'll say this again....I have been really, really critical of De Gea at times, I think he's a really poor GK. However, I can't accuse him of not trying/not caring when he makes mistakes with his feet, when we know he's not very good with his feet and we keep asking him to try to play with his feet!

See my point? Just 'willing' De Gea to be able to do something isn't enough...and I could apply that to basically every player in the squad. Do you think De Gea wants to make mistakes? He looked absolutely shattered in that interview yesterday. As much as I don't rate him, I felt for him.
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While you are right, DDG seems to be one of very few players who actually cares and therefore is a kind of bad example - he isn't typical for how the squad currently appears.
 
Lentwood said:
I don't see how getting hammered by the likes of Brentford helps in any way, shape or form. All that will happen is that will get ETH the sack, put players off wanting to join the club and destroy the confidence of any half-decent players we do have in the squad.

If this was a one-off, I would understand, however, we have been beaten four goals or more seven times in the last 12-months. Would you say that's normal? Is that 'progress' somehow?
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There is no progress in idling in between, ETH wont get a sack if he changes his intial decisions regarding this squad, those who dont wanna join us due CL, they can feck them self, in last 10 years how many times we recruited so called "world class" or very good players and then with those same players we fail to get into CL next season. There is no half decent player in the squad so destroying their confidence aint an issue.

So if we actually have plan for progressive football, punch through it if not, well doesnt matter then does it.
 
You were always told not to press the red button and you didn’t listen, a reset isn’t needed after 2 games.

He hasn’t been given the chance to implement his tactics and doesn’t have the team needed to carry out the plan. This will be a hard process and will take a lot of time to change the mindset of the players.
 
What I find interesting is people assuming the Op means temporarily abandoning Ten-Haags style means no progressive football. Since when has attacking football only been exclusive to a possession style?

United could easily play an attractive high energy game with the current squad; just not possession football.

De-Gea
Varane Maguire Martinez
Dalot Paulhihna Fred LWB
Fernades
Sancho Rashford

I see no reason why this team couldn't compete under a direct style which they're actually suited more to. You just needed to sign Paulhihna whose now at Fulham and a quick energetic left wingback.

They don't have players for possession based football.
 
Under any tactical scheme the players are expected to put in maximum effort. Our opponent put in maximum effort — we did not.
 
Regarding thread title change. Are we rehiring LVG for the foundation work?
 
Or embrace it? We don't have the personnel to play progressive football with many of the players in our team but it's high time those players were moved on.

This isn't something that's especially difficult to do. You might have to pick and choose your moments but plenty of midtable sides (including Brighton and Brentford) have a better grasp of this than we do.

There are too many players who stick out like sore thumbs. Ronaldo and de Gea are not remotely suited to this style of football. Our midfield is non-existent, defensively and creatively. Fix those issues and we might get somewhere.
 
He can tweak some things but he can't change his system. Transform this team or get sacked trying.
 
Lentwood said:
Why and how is it 'pandering'? I have seen that word used multiple times but I don't get it in this context.

'Pandering' would be if the players were saying things like "we don't like this style of football", so we changed it for them.

The players just not being capable of playing this type of football and therefore tweaking the set-up is not 'pandering', it's a sensible, pragmatic approach and used to be called 'good management'.

I'll say this again....I have been really, really critical of De Gea at times, I think he's a really poor GK. However, I can't accuse him of not trying/not caring when he makes mistakes with his feet, when we know he's not very good with his feet and we keep asking him to try to play with his feet!

See my point? Just 'willing' De Gea to be able to do something isn't enough...and I could apply that to basically every player in the squad. Do you think De Gea wants to make mistakes? He looked absolutely shattered in that interview yesterday. As much as I don't rate him, I felt for him because his confidence must be rock-bottom
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These guys are paid top 10% salaries and they can't kick a ball better through some coaching?

They have regressed, become complacent and given up on developing themselves or their game over the last few seasons because there's zero pressure to become better. Why is that? Because we just sack the manager and bring someone else in who rewards that behaviour by changing the way we play to something 'easier' for the players to grasp.

Rashford for example, when he plays on the left he cuts inside and looks to shoot, I know that, you know that, every RB in the world knows that. It's so predictable he can't even get away with doing it these days before he's closed down. Ralf saw this and decided to play him on the right to help develop his game, how did he respond? He simply stopped running.

It's criminal that De Gea hasn't bothered to develop his game. He was the best shot stopper in the world at one point and he just decided there and then he was done. Forget distribution, forget command of the area, forget coming off your line. That kind of complacency saw many a great player moved on from United under Fergie, now we reward it with new contracts and changing formations to suit shite players.

So yes, it's pandering to the fullest degree.
 
ti vu said:
Regarding thread title change. Are we rehiring LVG for the foundation work?
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I changed the thread title because another poster pointed out it didn't really reflect the point of my OP and it was leading to people to wrongly believe I was saying we shouldn't aspire to playing progressive football (which was my fault)

I liked LVG, I thought he was brilliant tactically. Recruitment let him down at times.

However, I firmly believe ETH is good enough and capable enough to adapt, reign it in just a little, whilst still laying the foundations for progressive football.
 
crossy1686 said:
It's criminal that De Gea hasn't bothered to develop his game. He was the best shot stopper in the world at one point and he just decided there and then he was done. Forget distribution, forget command of the area, forget coming off your line. That kind of complacency saw many a great player moved on from United under Fergie, now we reward it with new contracts and changing formations to suit shite players.

So yes, it's pandering to the fullest degree.
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I agree with the bolded part - De Gea should have been long gone, but he isn't. That's not ETHs fault but it's now his issue to deal with and it will be him who gets fired if we keep getting beaten 0-4 by Brentford and losing at home to Brighton.

Let me put it another way....let's say you were appointed manager instead of ETH. What would you have done? Would you continue to ask DDG to play with his feet or would you now realise he can't do that and ask him to temporarily go longer?

I personally would have prioritised the GK position and made it clear to the Board I wanted DDG gone...but if that wasn't possible and I had to start the season with him, I wouldn't make matters worse for myself by asking him to play tika-taka in his own penalty area. That's just suicide.

Likewise, I would have prioritised the CF position and tried to ship out Ronaldo and Martial for a high-energy, young, aggressive CF....but again, if that's not possible, I'm not going to try and press with a 37 year-old CF.

You must at least see part of my point? It's not pandering if they fundamentally can't do something and you adapt. You still aim to get them out the club but that takes time
 
dinostar77 said:
Ridiculous thread isnt it. 2 games in. Poster would have got rid of guardiola and klopp as well if he supported either of those teams. Both managers struggled initially as well.
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Agree the season is young, but Klopp and Giardiola’s teams were quickly looking like what their managers wanted, albeit with serious problems e.g. Liverpool being awful defensively at the time and City being vulnerable defensively too. But they had a clear template that was working well enough from day 1.
 
JuriM said:
Not a single player from the senior team nor U23 is capable to play progressive football or being developed to play it?
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You'd think so, but I don't really think our problem is progressive football. Are we great at it? No, but statistically, we had over 60% possession in our first two games.

I think the bigger issue is the fact that we are so easy to play against. Teams are able to progress the ball way too easily through our team. ten Hag will need the players and time to implement his ideas.
 
Lentwood said:
I agree with the bolded part - De Gea should have been long gone, but he isn't. That's not ETHs fault but it's now his issue to deal with and it will be him who gets fired if we keep getting beaten 0-4 by Brentford and losing at home to Brighton.

Let me put it another way....let's say you were appointed manager instead of ETH. What would you have done? Would you continue to ask DDG to play with his feet or would you now realise he can't do that and ask him to temporarily go longer?

I personally would have prioritised the GK position and made it clear to the Board I wanted DDG gone...but if that wasn't possible and I had to start the season with him, I wouldn't make matters worse for myself by asking him to play tika-taka in his own penalty area. That's just suicide.

Likewise, I would have prioritised the CF position and tried to ship out Ronaldo and Martial for a high-energy, young, aggressive CF....but again, if that's not possible, I'm not going to try and press with a 37 year-old CF.

You must at least see part of my point? It's not pandering if they fundamentally can't do something and you adapt. You still aim to get them out the club but that takes time
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Agree.
 
largelyworried said:
Not really a comparable situation. Firstly, that was about a team that already knew how to play in the manager's preferred style getting its confidence back. This is about training a team that has never played a certain way into a new style.

Secondly, there are different forms of "defensive" and "control". If Pep feels his team is conceding too often, he'll flood midfield and focus on ball retention and an aggressive press. He won't flood the defense and focus on clearing the 18 yard box. Progressive football can still have an emphasis on attack or defence, they have the same fundamentals. In our case the focus should be on getting the fundamentals of progressive football right - possession, ball progression and pressing - which will solidify both the defense and attack.
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I think there are some elements that are comparable but yes, Fergie knew his players, he had a way of playing and the trust was there. None of that is there yet with ten hag. But the point about confidence is the important thing. He needs to find a way to fix that, and fast. Being hard to beat would be a good start.
 
Lentwood said:
I agree we don't want to deviate from the basic debate here, however, I think it's important to highlight that City are not a good example to use because they are not run for-profit.

Liverpool or Arsenal are better examples. We need to appreciate we'll have to follow the blueprint for their rebuilds in terms of the recruitment, rather than be able to necessarily just do what City did.
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I agree. And Liverpool’s, in particular, is the critical one. They started in a better place than we did, but they fundamentally changed their entire structure not just at manager, and Klopp was the final piece who let’s not forget didn’t light it up immediately either. We unfortunately haven’t changed our club structure before we got ETH, which is why I accept arguments like yours as plausible but enough is enough. We have clearly not shown the same desire as Liverpool did as a club to change. So it’s time to stop half measures and bare it all to show why it’s so fundamental. And for me that means ETH sticking to his guns and not shifting one bit. It may cost him his job but every step we take in this direction heaps more onto our owner in terms of making it abundantly clear. If we sacrifice now for better results, I fear we give our owners another easy way out.
 
Lentwood said:
Is that not exactly what I was advocating, with the simple difference being we reign it in until we DO have at least some of the foundations in-place?
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My issue is that we keep doing that, and we keep getting into situation where decision-makers at the club concluded that the players we have are fine. How many seasons are we going to go and be pragmatic? The time for that was under Rangnick last season, while we were surviving until a rebuilld, now we actually have to follow through and begin building a squad that can play the style we want long-term.

We can't keep delaying it season after season, and writing off years simply because we don't feel like spending more money to get the squad up to scratch. Spend the 250M we need this summer, sell some players, keep building on it next summer with equal levels of investment and stop dithering about.
 
Lentwood said:
I agree with the bolded part - De Gea should have been long gone, but he isn't. That's not ETHs fault but it's now his issue to deal with and it will be him who gets fired if we keep getting beaten 0-4 by Brentford and losing at home to Brighton.

Let me put it another way....let's say you were appointed manager instead of ETH. What would you have done? Would you continue to ask DDG to play with his feet or would you now realise he can't do that and ask him to temporarily go longer?

I personally would have prioritised the GK position and made it clear to the Board I wanted DDG gone...but if that wasn't possible and I had to start the season with him, I wouldn't make matters worse for myself by asking him to play tika-taka in his own penalty area. That's just suicide.

Likewise, I would have prioritised the CF position and tried to ship out Ronaldo and Martial for a high-energy, young, aggressive CF....but again, if that's not possible, I'm not going to try and press with a 37 year-old CF.

You must at least see part of my point? It's not pandering if they fundamentally can't do something and you adapt. You still aim to get them out the club but that takes time
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I understand your point but if you give these players an inch, they take a mile.

There will always be a transition between an old playing style and a new one, it takes time for players to adapt to new systems and expectations on the pitch. What's unforgivable is that they won't run or fight either.

None of our GK's are better than De Gea on a good day, and although he made a couple of mistakes yesterday we could have still been in the game if we reacted to going down but we absolutely folded instead.

Personally, if I have the autonomy to do so, I'd tell them all to find new clubs if they want to play football as they're now all behind the reserves and the U18's in terms of starting for United, or if they wish to they can stay and fight for their places instead. Fans would be a lot more forgiving if a bunch of reserve players get smashed by Liverpool, if it happens to the first team Ten Hag is under massive pressure.

We have absolutely no idea that Ten Hag didn't ask for those things you mentioned, but here we are, with a back up LB, a free CM who died last year, a midget CB and a failed bid or Arnautovic.
 
ti vu said:
By what you said, then you propose going through stage of progress, then we just appointed the wrong manager. The step should be Brendan Rodger, Mancini, Pellegrini, Pochettino, Tuchel... before we appoint a more purist manager mould of Pep, Klopp.

And yes. We have no proper DoF to see through this progress.
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That's a good point too, and a whole different area of discussion. It's the big caveat to praise of Pep. Has he ever not managed a team of expensive galacticos?
 
NoLogo said:
Mate, I get what you are saying, and I totally understand your frustration, but we also need to deal with reality and not just an idealistic view of how things should happen. EtH ain't high enough in the pecking order of the club to survive a lower table finish, and I haven't gotten a single doubt that this is where we will end up if we keep playing the way we did in the first two games.

The only one who could really be completely ruthless in this way is our CEO and I don't see that from Arnold he already said he doesn't want to get too much involved in the rebuild because he has no clue what to do, which should have been the first warning sign because it also means he has no clue what people to hire for a ruthless restructuring of the club it seems.

I wish EtH could force his way through and I would take this season on the chin and say, okay it's a write-off, if I had any confidence that the people in charge of this club would manage a swift rebuild and not fire EtH if he ends up with a mid-table position. On top of that I think EtH would actually be able to do it, one of the things that I really liked about him was that in his past jobs he showed that he isn't super dogmatic about tactics but rather a pragmatist when it is needed, of course he might just have underestimated how bad this team is and choosing a more progressive style against Brighton and Brentford shouldn't be completely impossible with the squad we have.
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I get it. But I view it another way - any deviation only reduces the burden that we are trying to place on our owners to sort this out. You’re right in that ETH might not be able to survive it but thinking about the club and not ETH, is that not a better outcome? It would serve to show the board there is no other way. And it would significantly improve the next managers chances of forcing a full rebuild. I like you have no faith in our board but that’s also why I can’t see any other way other than ramming it down their throats that it needs to happen. If we bend again to these players and how we operate to improve our performances now, we are only giving them an easy way out.

If our board had shown a desire to make fundamental change, then I would immediately back the approach you’re suggesting because I’d know even if things improved we were committed to making things right long term. But we aren’t. And so doing so now would only serve to continue this shit show we’ve got going on.
 
Laurencio said:
sell some players
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How? United's players constantly look worse, much worse than United pays for them, both transfer fees and wages. How much serious interest from other clubs was there for United's players in recent windows? Not counting those whose contract ended obviously.
 
Laurencio said:
My issue is that we keep doing that, and we keep getting into situation where decision-makers at the club concluded that the players we have are fine. How many seasons are we going to go and be pragmatic? The time for that was under Rangnick last season, while we were surviving until a rebuilld, now we actually have to follow through and begin building a squad that can play the style we want long-term.

We can't keep delaying it season after season, and writing off years simply because we don't feel like spending more money to get the squad up to scratch. Spend the 250M we need this summer, sell some players, keep building on it next summer with equal levels of investment and stop dithering about.
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I'd like us to pay to release all the deadwood on our books, clean the stables etc once and for all. Sadly we don't have the money for that.
 
Well we should stick to what ETH wants to implement but then he should have also done his homework better and our first signings should have been a goal keeper and two midfielders (not attacking midfielders or false 9 or false DM experiments) ahead of any other signings.
 
Lentwood said:
Why and how is it 'pandering'? I have seen that word used multiple times but I don't get it in this context.

'Pandering' would be if the players were saying things like "we don't like this style of football", so we changed it for them.

The players just not being capable of playing this type of football and therefore tweaking the set-up is not 'pandering', it's a sensible, pragmatic approach and used to be called 'good management'.

I'll say this again....I have been really, really critical of De Gea at times, I think he's a really poor GK. However, I can't accuse him of not trying/not caring when he makes mistakes with his feet, when we know he's not very good with his feet and we keep asking him to try to play with his feet!

See my point? Just 'willing' De Gea to be able to do something isn't enough...and I could apply that to basically every player in the squad. Do you think De Gea wants to make mistakes? He looked absolutely shattered in that interview yesterday. As much as I don't rate him, I felt for him because his confidence must be rock-bottom
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Pandering might not be the right word. But the point is very valid, though. It comes down to what are we trying to achieve? I think we all agree that no matter what, this club needs fundamental change. Not just I how we play but how we recruit, how we set strategy, what our scouting does, what our DOF (if we even have a proper one) does, and so on and so forth.

So taking your DDG example. If we had a clear view that the club was changing and if we knew we were on the right path, what you’ve said would be absolutely right. But I come back to what we really want here. And it’s not tweaking tactics to get the best out of these players. It’s to force fundamental change at this club. Therefore it’s not about what we should do to not make DDG look shit. But about making it abundantly clear what a goalkeeper in our future plans should be able to do. DDG unfortunately gets caught in the cross fire, but the reality is he either learns and improves, or doesn’t and we know we have a position to resolve in the next window. That ethos is applied to all of our players.

If we go back to a worse style to allow these players to perform better, all we are doing is losing time in identifying players who can do it or not. All we are doing is giving the owners another easy out by making them think we can find a manager who can make all these players play well. It’s just not the right way. We need to have a clear, solid as rock, strategy in how we want to play. And stick to it to force change. And to find the players willing to buy in and see if they can do it. And find those who aren’t and need to be replaced.

What you’re saying would be the right approach for perhaps all other 19 teams in the PL. it just isn’t for us.
 
So we’ve gone from LVG ball to Mourinho, Mourinho to Oleball, Ole to Rangnick, now Rangnick to ETH, and because we’ve not nailed “progressive” football inside 2 games, its time to give up? :lol:
 
I'm more than happy to see us finish absolutely nowhere this season if ETH shows he is sticking to his plan. We know half the players can't do it, but they should be moved on and replaced with those who can. It will take at least another summer, probably two or three before he can find 11 players who are good enough. We have about 5 players who are capable of playing his way. We need at least 6 more players to make an 11, and we probably need to buy 10 to get 6 right. That's before we even begin to think about squad players...

The absolute worst thing we could do is drop everything and revert to long ball counter attack because that really is a road to nowhere.
 
Lentwood said:
I agree with the bolded part - De Gea should have been long gone, but he isn't. That's not ETHs fault but it's now his issue to deal with and it will be him who gets fired if we keep getting beaten 0-4 by Brentford and losing at home to Brighton.

Let me put it another way....let's say you were appointed manager instead of ETH. What would you have done? Would you continue to ask DDG to play with his feet or would you now realise he can't do that and ask him to temporarily go longer?

I personally would have prioritised the GK position and made it clear to the Board I wanted DDG gone...but if that wasn't possible and I had to start the season with him, I wouldn't make matters worse for myself by asking him to play tika-taka in his own penalty area. That's just suicide.

Likewise, I would have prioritised the CF position and tried to ship out Ronaldo and Martial for a high-energy, young, aggressive CF....but again, if that's not possible, I'm not going to try and press with a 37 year-old CF.

You must at least see part of my point? It's not pandering if they fundamentally can't do something and you adapt. You still aim to get them out the club but that takes time
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The board and club cannot sell De Gea because there is no one to buy him.

And if you decide not to play from the back because of 1 player, you are suboptimising the entire defence, hurting not just the back 4 ut the midfield and buildup too. It is an impossible tradeoff.

I would continue with De Gea, let him fail hard again and again so we are willing to buy the right keeper.
 
Au contraire, it is in fact time to double down on building a solid foundation for the future.

It’s the only way we’ll get out of this mess.
 
I`m no fan of the Glasers and I agree with Rio calling for them to actually physically be in Manchester and take some responsibility. However, much as their ownership is a problem, people like Gary Neville doing the same and focusing on the Glasers instead of the actual on- pitch performance of each player simply lets the players off the hook.

The fact that Brighton and Brentford could show more cohesion and commitment to win the first two games says it all. All the shrieking going on about Ten Hag is nonsense - he is two games in and during the off season managed to get United looking alright. He doesn`t have the luxury of time and the players have to shoulder the blame.

Yes we should have recruited some quality but Ten Hag isn`t at fault for not being able to get the players he knows will make a difference although Rio`s point about how it is time to give up the desperate courtship of Franki De Jong is spot-on. The Brighton and Brentford players showed more desire and put in more effort - especially the latter. No excuses can be given for the atrocious performance against Brentford especially.

However, the problems are glaring in the midfield and at the back. It is time for Shaw to go much as I like him - he doesn`t deserve any more benefit of the doubt especially given his experience and while I like Harry too, it is probably time to get a more versatile defender. I don` think his attitude is the problem but his weaknesses are more apparent in this kind of United team.

And regardless of the good attitudes of Fred and Scott, their weaknesses are throttling the attack. People will keep whinging about and slagging off Jadon and Marcus but from what I see, the inadequate midfield has a lot to do with the lack of scoring opportunities.

The defence and midfield have to be restructured and with brutal objectivity - it can only be done with better players and we are going to have to be patient because it is clear the name of Manchester United no longer has the cachet it did because of what has transpired since the huge mistake in appointing David Moyes to take over from Sir Alex.
 
There will never be a perfect time to adopt the new system, we have to bite the bullet and get on with it.
 
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