Time to abandon "progressive" football...until we fix the foundations

No, but ten Hag will need to make minor tweaks, and I guess it will be a learning curve for him.

We need better players, that's clear enough, but he does need to get the best out of what he's got.

He probably needs to go to a 4231, rather than a 433. It would be more reminiscent of what he played in 18/19. It will give us a bit more protection and it will help us progress the ball, as we haven't got a specialist like Rodri, Busquets, etc that can play that role.

When we acquire that type of player then so be it, but for now, we should probably stick with more of a solid foundation.
 
The OP has loads of good points. I've long felt that we can't be too picky about how we play. How can we? The recruitment has been over several managers, and poor! So on a basic level, as Ralf found out, we don't have players who are good at high press football. We just don't. Week in, week out over the last few years we've been beaten by "lesser" bottom half of the table teams who have been well drilled and have a couple of flare players. They've done the basic stuff well, been hard to break down & nicked goals.

We badly need to stop conceding. The problem currently is obvious. We need better defensive midfielders and a stable back 4. This has been the case for ages.

All this needs to happen before Erik can start building the future or he won't get a chance to. The reality is we don't have the players to play in a "progressive" way that can challenge the top 2, not even the top 4. This is where you get into the bigger issue: lack of joined-up thinking and lack of direction. We've needed a DoF really. Just some football people making decisions!

FFS, they can even look at City and look at Liverpool and see how they both built things back up. Yes cash got spent in both cases, but you can see the ins/outs and all that
 
No need to abandon it per se but we definitely have to tighten up in the immediate term. We've been easy to play through for 2-3 seasons now and we cannot continue to ship goals

Clean sheets have to be the basis to start from or it undermines the whole process anyway. Scoring 2 beautiful goals a games but conceding 3 ridiculous ones will get us nowhere

We simply must become more difficult to play against
 
When Conte was available I said I'd want him over ETH.

The current state of the squad and the players available are more suited to a Conte than a ETH. With ETH we'd need investment and a lot of time to bring his style of play into fruition. I think this was obvious to everyone except our board it seems. Even more so when you realise that they aren't really willing to bring wholesale changes into the team.
 
NoLogo said:
In principle, you are right, but the reality is, EtH wouldn't survive a 15th place, no chance. The pressure from the media and the fans would be too high and the people in charge of this club would fold to the outside pressure as they always do.

That's why I think it first has to be about stabilizing a sinking ship, there is no use in sticking to your principles if it ends up costing the coach his job. EtH now needs to be absolute clear with the board, if we don't manage to bring in the right players until the end of the window and in the following 3+ transfer windows there is no chance of a rebuild.

I also don't buy into the idea that it simply takes better coaching that EtH will bring to the team to fix it. Some of our players are simply too slow for the modern game. Some don't have the technical requirements to deal with pressing, and some give up the second things go only a tiny way south. Of course, we even have players who show all of these characteristics together, yes I'm looking at you Harry.
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Then we’ve identified another issue - if the club is serious about change then they need to accept what will happen to get it done. Not doing something because the board would incorrectly fold is even more of a nonsense.

Also do we really think we will finish 15th? Easy to think it with the last two games but I still think it’s be foolish to see us finish that low even if we forces progressive football onto these players. But it’s possible, and it shouldn’t matter.

And no doubt these players can’t be coached to play the way ETH wants. But until we try, we will never know who may or may not adapt. But at least you identify who you can keep around and those you must ship off.

I’m so fed up of how we are run and the decisions we make. The bottom line for me is that every single decision we take has to be about forcing a change; in culture, structure, strategy and philosophy. And that doesn’t directly align to that is a wrong decision. No matter what. Why? Because unless we do so we will never win again. And there will hopefully never be quite a time to get it done than this, whilst we are so far from winning anything it’s unreal. Trying to temporarily win now only undermines this.

Can I also make the point that many of our players have proven to be effective, either previously here or at other clubs. This is a broken group right now, though. I’m not saying they should be defended and I think and wish they had more bottle. But years of failure, years of being hated by the fans, years of failure - it takes its toll. The reality is they have no confidence and no belief. If their manager bends to public pressure to get results, what does that show them? ETH has to stand firm because doing so alone will cause a moment of pause and reflection. This club too often feels like the manager, players, whoever else, are all independent groups. It’s time we start being together.
 
the_cliff said:
When Conte was available I said I'd want him over ETH.

The current state of the squad and the players available are more suited to a Conte than a ETH. With ETH we'd need investment and a lot of time to bring his style of play into fruition. I think this was obvious to everyone except our board it seems. Even more so when you realise that they aren't really willing to bring wholesale changes into the team.
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The classic united disconnect. Making decisions independently which means collectively they don’t make sense.
 
Danish Wizard said:
Chill
Look at Arsenal, they started horrible last season. But you see a clear pattern in their play now. And I'm not saying they are ready to fight for the title, but they trusted Arteta and have given him time. They are a better place than us at the moment.
Trust ten Hag, there is a reason why he got hired. And lt him and the staff do their work. It will improve.
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Really good point.

We must be patient. It'll get worse before it gets better.
 
Shark said:
I agree this squad isn't capable of playing the way ETH/RR wanted us to play, but City and Chelsea aren't the only teams playing "progressive football" and you don't need a suger daddy to do it. Brentford/Brighton with as you say limited resources made this transition just fine with the right players in key positions. The only difference is Manchester United managers will not get the same amount of time to implement it. Unfortunately we gave the most amount of time to OGS who wasn't even actively trying to improve our football but just survive because he was fortunate to be in the hot seat at all.
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The key is the right players in the right positions. Spurs, Arsenal, Brentford etc., have a plan; see where they need to improve and buy the appropriate players. United's mantra "we only buy the best" doesn't work if you're building a team. A collection of vanity signings won't cut it if they cannot gel as a team.
 
youmeletsfly said:
Definition of plastic fan.
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This I take issue with. This is a forum, it's a place for different opinions on how the club should be run and managed.

If you want to have a 'top Red-off' I guarantee I'll beat you. I'll have been to more games, watched more games, spent more money, travelled further, committed more to supporting United than 85% of people on this forum.

There's this culture developing that if you deviate slightly from the cult of 'we're Man United' and all of the platitudes and soundbites that go along with that then you're somehow plastic, which to me is a bordering on lunacy and sheer dogmatism.

If you think differently, please share your insight, but trying to insult people is stupid
 
Who says he is one of the best coaches? When you manage the dominant team in a far weaker, less competitive league like the Eridivise, you can only be judging on reputation.
golden_blunder said:
You don’t hire a manager, one of europes best young coaches, with a progressive style, then tell him him to rip it up 2 games into the season. That’s complete nonsense. I’ve always thought it will take at least a season to get a style implemented fully, and get some better quality players in. Things might get worse before they get better so strap in. Over 90% of this board wanted Ten Hag so to change your minds 2 games in because you have no mental fortitude, it’s the epitome of a kneejerker
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It's a pity we didn't play this poorly in preseason, it would have given eth more time to sell and replace more of our deadwood. As it is, we will have to struggle through until next summer with old dogs that can't be taught new tricks.
 
Red_Aaron said:
No need to abandon it per se but we definitely have to tighten up in the immediate term. We've been easy to play through for 2-3 seasons now and we cannot continue to ship goals

Clean sheets have to be the basis to start from or it undermines the whole process anyway. Scoring 2 beautiful goals a games but conceding 3 ridiculous ones will get us nowhere

We simply must become more difficult to play against
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I agree with this. We need to start grinding out those points first thing. it won't be pretty but for the time being we don't really have a choice. We can continue on like this without the right players, but then the more you lose the more likely we will be in a relegation battle. No joke. We have to build up those shitty player's confidence somehow and survive the season until we can get rid of most of the under performers and also recruit the players that we need.

You know it's bad when they won't even put a shift in knowing the damn World Cup is coming around. Got to find a way to mitigate their worst tendencies just to get points on the board.

Once we feel a bit more secure we can slowly implement this style. Absolutely don't abandon it though.
 
mark_a said:
The OP has loads of good points. I've long felt that we can't be too picky about how we play. How can we? The recruitment has been over several managers, and poor! So on a basic level, as Ralf found out, we don't have players who are good at high press football. We just don't. Week in, week out over the last few years we've been beaten by "lesser" bottom half of the table teams who have been well drilled and have a couple of flare players. They've done the basic stuff well, been hard to break down & nicked goals.

We badly need to stop conceding. The problem currently is obvious. We need better defensive midfielders and a stable back 4. This has been the case for ages.

All this needs to happen before Erik can start building the future or he won't get a chance to. The reality is we don't have the players to play in a "progressive" way that can challenge the top 2, not even the top 4. This is where you get into the bigger issue: lack of joined-up thinking and lack of direction. We've needed a DoF really. Just some football people making decisions!

FFS, they can even look at City and look at Liverpool and see how they both built things back up. Yes cash got spent in both cases, but you can see the ins/outs and all that
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By what you said, then you propose going through stage of progress, then we just appointed the wrong manager. The step should be Brendan Rodger, Mancini, Pellegrini, Pochettino, Tuchel... before we appoint a more purist manager mould of Pep, Klopp.

And yes. We have no proper DoF to see through this progress.
 
Lots of people forget Peps first season at City
 
Danish Wizard said:
Chill
Look at Arsenal, they started horrible last season. But you see a clear pattern in their play now. And I'm not saying they are ready to fight for the title, but they trusted Arteta and have given him time. They are a better place than us at the moment.
Trust ten Hag, there is a reason why he got hired. And lt him and the staff do their work. It will improve.
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I 100% agree on Arteta, I have said from the beginning he would make a success of it at Arsenal and was approaching it the right way. To be clear, despite what some people seem to be saying, I firmly believe ETH can be a success at United.

My point is that our squad is entirely unsuited to playing ETHs style of football right now. He's been at the club 5-minutes but we have enough evidence from last year (and previous years' even) to understand the limitations of this group of players.

The way I see it now was summed-up nicely by @NoLogo - if ETH doesn't adapt, we'll be bottom-half at Christmas and he'll be sacked before long. Then what, how is that good for the long-term development of the club?

It's not about completely abandoning your principles, it's about understanding that taking a dogmatic approach to blindly repeating the same mistakes over and over again is a road to nowhere. A really good manager would adapt, get the best out of what he has and slowly but surely turn the team into one capable of playing his ideal type of football.

Also...to those saying 'Brentford'Brighton play progressive football' as if somehow we can therefore just easily implement it is very disrespectful to those two clubs. Those two clubs have been amongst the best two run clubs in Europe for the last 6/7 years. It didn't happen overnight, they have assembled squads of players that perfectly suit the style their manager wants to play. They might not have world-class talent at their disposal but they also don't have a goalkeeper who can't play a pass, two centre midfielders who can't play forwards, a 5ft9" CB and a 37 year-old CF.

So why not bunker down a bit? Be pragmatic, work with what you have for now, identify the right players in January (I'd be targeting an aggressive, progressive GK and a high-energy CF) and start to build slowly from there.

I get that people are angry right now but I feel getting beaten 0-4 every week serves no long-term purpose whatsoever and is just cutting our nose off to spite our face
 
We are not playing progressive football at all unless you count the pissing about at the back conceding goals as progressive.

Maguire still Captain and shit
Bruno still playing every game and doing nothing.
Rashford still playing every game and doing nothing.
McFred still playing nearly every game and doing nothing.

Nothing changed.
 
Lentwood said:
This I take issue with. This is a forum, it's a place for different opinions on how the club should be run and managed.

If you want to have a 'top Red-off' I guarantee I'll beat you. I'll have been to more games, watched more games, spent more money, travelled further, committed more to supporting United than 85% of people on this forum.

There's this culture developing that if you deviate slightly from the cult of 'we're Man United' and all of the platitudes and soundbites that go along with that then you're somehow plastic, which to me is a bordering on lunacy and sheer dogmatism.

If you think differently, please share your insight, but trying to insult people is stupid
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I said that based on your initial post, it wasn't something personal, don't get me wrong. I'm the farthest away from having any connection with "the Man United way" which anyway is something absolutely idiotic and cringe.

I get your initial post and I agree with parts of it, but to say that after two games is a bit on the odd side of things.

You can not really expect a new manager to have everything working from the first two games, especially considering the players he has and, especially, considering the core is made of a few English players who by definition can't play progressive football if their lives would be on the line.

But, if he moves away from his style, it will only be worse. We'd replicate what Ole did and be back to where we started in a few seasons.

It's better for him to finish 15th this season than going back to old fashioned football. This is a long term stunt, not an immediate one and, if you're the so called fan that you're calling yourself, you should know.
 
Garethw said:
Any top manager worth his salt is not going to abandon his football philosophy two games into a season.

Any player that cannot get on board with the managers system should be dropped. Play a side full of youth players even if it means finishing 15th.

I’m sick of seeing managers bending to the whim of mediocre players like Rashford, Dalot, Maguire, McTominay, Shaw and most of the bloody squad.

They need to know that if they can’t adapt then they are finished here.
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I recall a period under fergie when the teams game totally collapsed and we lost three or so games on the trot. Pressure was on. What did he do? He realised what the problem was - confidence. Focused them on defending and restablishing control. Reminded them of basics. Shortly after that we went on a run. One of those times you just had to take your hat off to his management skill. He knew his players. ten Hag doesn't yet know his. He's tried trusting them, that is why Maguire is captain etc.
 
Cassidy said:
Lots of people forget Peps first season at City
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Pep signed 13 senior players in his first two summer windows to add to a squad which had won the league two years prior.

I fail to see the comparison to be honest. We won't be signing 13 senior players in two windows because we don't have an unlimited budget like they had and we're in a much poorer state in-terms of the quality and profile of our squad.

I think you're forgetting that Txiki Begiristain had spent two/three seasons preparing for Pep and they still needed £500m to turn a title-winning squad from one that finished 4th in his first season to the all-conquering footballing machine we see today.

Nobody debates that's where we want to go, I just think you're massively oversimplifying the steps needed to get there without oil money
 
youmeletsfly said:
I said that based on your initial post, it wasn't something personal, don't get me wrong. I'm the farthest away from having any connection with "the Man United way" which anyway is something absolutely idiotic and cringe.

I get your initial post and I agree with parts of it, but to say that after two games is a bit on the odd side of things.

You can not really expect a new manager to have everything working from the first two games, especially considering the players he has and, especially, considering the core is made of a few English players who by definition can't play progressive football if their lives would be on the line.

But, if he moves away from his style, it will only be worse. We'd replicate what Ole did and be back to where we started in a few seasons.

It's better for him to finish 15th this season than going back to old fashioned football. This is a long term stunt, not an immediate one and, if you're the so called fan that you're calling yourself, you should know.
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OK, well I appreciate the response and the fact that it's not personal. Like many people, I am frustrated, I have my opinions about what the club should/should not do but I think we all agree we want what is best for the club ultimately
 
It's not an easy conundrum.

I agree that in theory tightening up the ship, playing with fewer spaces, allowing Rashford and Sancho to move into space, not asking the defenders and keeper to do things they seem ill suited to are all good short-term measures that are likely to stabilise us. These are all things a purely pragmatic coach only concerned with this season's results would do straight away, as it is very obvious.

But the other side to it is it's not so easy to suddenly start drilling a completely different style of football after 2-3 years. The other option is you can also start to ingrain the habits, accept the pain, and cut off those that are totally unsuited over a period of time. This is more of the Pep approach. You weed out the weaknesses through trial by fire.

The difference with us of course is that we're not good in the market and our squad is weaker than City's was which makes the prospect a lot tougher. This means we are likely to reach stupendous lows in playing the football ETH wants to play. But I don't think we are always going to be as bad as we were in the last two games.

I wonder if there is actually a large difference between the two approaches if the manager is worth his salt. You should still get to where you want to go.
 
nickm said:
I recall a period under fergie when the teams game totally collapsed and we lost three or so games on the trot. Pressure was on. What did he do? He realised what the problem was - confidence. Focused them on defending and restablishing control. Reminded them of basics. Shortly after that we went on a run. One of those times you just had to take your hat off to his management skill. He knew his players. ten Hag doesn't yet know his. He's tried trusting them, that is why Maguire is captain etc.
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Exactly. This doesn't mean abandoning the basic idea, but accepting that you might have to move step by step towards your final idea. And it's not like coaches somewhere else don't do that, I remember for example Cologne's manager stating last winter break that he wants to use the break "to move the defence 5m further on the pitch" to become even more progressive. There is nothing wrong in building useful automatisms in a kind of safe space and then move the team forward to increase the pressure on the opponents.
 
The OP makes lots of valid points. I appreciate being more pragmatic isn’t what people want to see but at this moment in time we don’t even have players competent enough to take goal kicks without putting ourselves in trouble. A lot of it comes from the goalkeeper and as I’ve said for a long time, priority number one should be replacing De Gea but there are so many other players that simply can’t do what Ten Hag will ask of them because they either aren’t good enough or their confidence levels are so brittle they have pretty much reached the point of no return at this football club. You can’t just continue to try and play a certain way without players suited to what you want to do and this lot aren’t, it will improve as time goes on but it will never be natural for them and we’ll need a major overhaul over the next 4 or 5 transfer windows but until then it does make sense to be more pragmatic and lean into what the players can do rather than what they can’t.
 
Lentwood said:
OK, well I appreciate the response and the fact that it's not personal. Like many people, I am frustrated, I have my opinions about what the club should/should not do but I think we all agree we want what is best for the club ultimately
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Yea, sure, no worries about that.

I will say stuff like journalists do these days "it will either improve or be worse soon". We'll find out by Christmas what's really going on.
 
Personally I think we should abandon football all together.
 
Lentwood said:
Pep signed 13 senior players in his first two summer windows to add to a squad which had won the league two years prior.

I fail to see the comparison to be honest. We won't be signing 13 senior players in two windows because we don't have an unlimited budget like they had and we're in a much poorer state in-terms of the quality and profile of our squad.

I think you're forgetting that Txiki Begiristain had spent two/three seasons preparing for Pep and they still needed £500m to turn a title-winning squad from one that finished 4th in his first season to the all-conquering footballing machine we see today.

Nobody debates that's where we want to go, I just think you're massively oversimplifying the steps needed to get there without oil money
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Let’s not start to ignore reality now. This thread provided some decent debate from two schools of thought but we see well on our way to heading into the typical thread which descends into straw man arguments because “winning” becomes more important than debate. City had needed a rebuild for years. That wasn’t a Guardiola thing. Just the simple matter that their core players of ye previous winning teams had gotten old.
 
rpitroda said:
Then we’ve identified another issue - if the club is serious about change then they need to accept what will happen to get it done. Not doing something because the board would incorrectly fold is even more of a nonsense.

Also do we really think we will finish 15th? Easy to think it with the last two games but I still think it’s be foolish to see us finish that low even if we forces progressive football onto these players. But it’s possible, and it shouldn’t matter.

And no doubt these players can’t be coached to play the way ETH wants. But until we try, we will never know who may or may not adapt. But at least you identify who you can keep around and those you must ship off.

I’m so fed up of how we are run and the decisions we make. The bottom line for me is that every single decision we take has to be about forcing a change; in culture, structure, strategy and philosophy. And that doesn’t directly align to that is a wrong decision. No matter what. Why? Because unless we do so we will never win again. And there will hopefully never be quite a time to get it done than this, whilst we are so far from winning anything it’s unreal. Trying to temporarily win now only undermines this.

Can I also make the point that many of our players have proven to be effective, either previously here or at other clubs. This is a broken group right now, though. I’m not saying they should be defended and I think and wish they had more bottle. But years of failure, years of being hated by the fans, years of failure - it takes its toll. The reality is they have no confidence and no belief. If their manager bends to public pressure to get results, what does that show them? ETH has to stand firm because doing so alone will cause a moment of pause and reflection. This club too often feels like the manager, players, whoever else, are all independent groups. It’s time we start being together.
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Mate, I get what you are saying, and I totally understand your frustration, but we also need to deal with reality and not just an idealistic view of how things should happen. EtH ain't high enough in the pecking order of the club to survive a lower table finish, and I haven't gotten a single doubt that this is where we will end up if we keep playing the way we did in the first two games.

The only one who could really be completely ruthless in this way is our CEO and I don't see that from Arnold he already said he doesn't want to get too much involved in the rebuild because he has no clue what to do, which should have been the first warning sign because it also means he has no clue what people to hire for a ruthless restructuring of the club it seems.

I wish EtH could force his way through and I would take this season on the chin and say, okay it's a write-off, if I had any confidence that the people in charge of this club would manage a swift rebuild and not fire EtH if he ends up with a mid-table position. On top of that I think EtH would actually be able to do it, one of the things that I really liked about him was that in his past jobs he showed that he isn't super dogmatic about tactics but rather a pragmatist when it is needed, of course he might just have underestimated how bad this team is and choosing a more progressive style against Brighton and Brentford shouldn't be completely impossible with the squad we have.
 
rpitroda said:
Let’s not start to ignore reality now. This thread provided some decent debate from two schools of thought but we see well on our way to heading into the typical thread which descends into straw man arguments because “winning” becomes more important than debate. City had needed a rebuild for years. That wasn’t a Guardiola thing. Just the simple matter that their core players of ye previous winning teams had gotten old.
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I agree we don't want to deviate from the basic debate here, however, I think it's important to highlight that City are not a good example to use because they are not run for-profit.

Liverpool or Arsenal are better examples. We need to appreciate we'll have to follow the blueprint for their rebuilds in terms of the recruitment, rather than be able to necessarily just do what City did.
 
Lentwood said:
Pep signed 13 senior players in his first two summer windows to add to a squad which had won the league two years prior.

I fail to see the comparison to be honest. We won't be signing 13 senior players in two windows because we don't have an unlimited budget like they had and we're in a much poorer state in-terms of the quality and profile of our squad.

I think you're forgetting that Txiki Begiristain had spent two/three seasons preparing for Pep and they still needed £500m to turn a title-winning squad from one that finished 4th in his first season to the all-conquering footballing machine we see today.

Nobody debates that's where we want to go, I just think you're massively oversimplifying the steps needed to get there without oil money
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The comparison is even he struggled to get City playing how he wanted at the start. Had many issues with the goalkeeping and playing out and did not have a great first season. He came into a squad which was very good too.

The point being, with a tighter budget and a poorer starting squad, ETH is going to have even more struggles than Pep at the start and fans should have expected that.

If we want to improve we have to start this now. Not do what Ole did and abandon it half way because its hard, or do what we did by switching from LVG to Jose.
 
Why to abandon? Sacrifcing it for what exactly? to have better results and chance for top 4 this season, is that it?
 
nickm said:
I recall a period under fergie when the teams game totally collapsed and we lost three or so games on the trot. Pressure was on. What did he do? He realised what the problem was - confidence. Focused them on defending and restablishing control. Reminded them of basics. Shortly after that we went on a run. One of those times you just had to take your hat off to his management skill. He knew his players. ten Hag doesn't yet know his. He's tried trusting them, that is why Maguire is captain etc.
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Not really a comparable situation. Firstly, that was about a team that already knew how to play in the manager's preferred style getting its confidence back. This is about training a team that has never played a certain way into a new style.

Secondly, there are different forms of "defensive" and "control". If Pep feels his team is conceding too often, he'll flood midfield and focus on ball retention and an aggressive press. He won't flood the defense and focus on clearing the 18 yard box. Progressive football can still have an emphasis on attack or defence, they have the same fundamentals. In our case the focus should be on getting the fundamentals of progressive football right - possession, ball progression and pressing - which will solidify both the defense and attack.
 
R'hllor said:
Why to abandon? Sacrifcing it for what exactly? to have better results and chance for top 4 this season, is that it?
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I don't see how getting hammered by the likes of Brentford helps in any way, shape or form. All that will happen is that will get ETH the sack, put players off wanting to join the club and destroy the confidence of any half-decent players we do have in the squad.

If this was a one-off, I would understand, however, we have been beaten four goals or more seven times in the last 12-months. Would you say that's normal? Is that 'progress' somehow?
 
Ten Hag himself stated that he instructed the players to be more direct.

We needed at least six or seven players before the season started. This is the problem, not the approach.
 
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