Thoughts on Tuchel as a potential United manager?

[renatosanches85]

Kim at Napoli was better than any of our centre backs. His form is on a record low atm

It’s Serie A in fairness.

 

[JPRouve]

I dun know man, I’ll give you the first defeat of the season that year, but that team that lost 1-0 at home to OSM was a damn strong team, as it was during the home draw to Bordeaux, the Monaco loss, the Lyon defeat.

The point is that he also won a bunch of games with severely diminished teams. And that second game against OM was 3 days after the first game full of players recovering from illness that didn't train.

But if we really want to find a determining game, it would be the lost to the LOSC at the end of the season.

 

[DSG]

First of all your time frame is misleading. In the '00s, it was indeed advisable to play a patient reactive game. The majority of the top managers devised their strategy around being solid and pouncing on opponents mistakes. We all remember those Chelsea vs Liverpool ties and plenty of other knock out CL games being cagey tight affairs. The trend is very different in the '10s post Barcelona's Guardiola. The fact that you include Mourinho's Porto as a counter attacking side is also misleading because they weren't. The man himself uses his Porto team as an example to defend himself against the stereotype associated to him.

Besides that, winning the European Cup alone is not the metric for me. The metric is being winning of course but also consistently challenging over a period of 4 or 5 years. What made Sir Alex a legend is not that he just won, it's that his teams were almost always there first, second or third and consistently in the quarters of the CL. Pep will also point out time and again that his greatest achievement is getting City to be always challenging. The best teams from 2010 onwards and tick that criteria are Real, Barcelona, Bayern and lately you'd have to add City and probably Liverpool. Except Real, all these clubs have looked to impose their game and be pro active whether it is through possession or aggressive pressing. I said in another post that I don't think anyone can do what Real does. They're the only club who can struggle to make it past the last 16 of the CL for over half a decade and still manage to lure the two previous Balon d'Or winners from CL winning clubs the way they did with CR and Kaka. The day we or anyone else can have that power, then maybe we can look to emulate them.

Got it. So, from the 10s to now, the 5 CLs by Real don’t count and neither do the 2 CLs by Chelsea or the Inter title.

I think you’re cherry picking a bit here, mate. If you’re stripping out over half of the teams that have won it, perhaps your point isn’t as strong as it could be…

A side note, Porto had 46% possession in the final v Monaco, yet won 3-0.

 

[Dec9003]

Nar feck that he got fired cause he put the easiest league title in Europe at stake with an awful 4 losses in 17. For context the following season Poch lost just 4 in 38.


Poch despite coming in mid season managed 2.23 points pers game, a tally that would’ve taken the title over the entire season. No question it was lost in the Tuchel period.

No, the title was lost when it could no longer be won, when Poch was there.

 

[davidmichael]

I found it odd that people are still saying ‘will Tuchel play the style we want’ when Ratcliffe himself has said that the footballing structure which will be Berrada, Ashworth, Wilcox and Williams will decide how we’ll play or our footballing identity and we’d be moving towards a head coach role which is where Tuchel excels and it’s also very well documented that Tuchel is one of the most tactically flexible and best coaches in the game.

This isn’t United chopping and changing managers who all set up differently with their own personal tactical preference then our board give them money to sign players to play how they want, this is United having football people at the very top making all those decisions and a head coach coming in to play how the footballing structure have told them we as a club will play.

Yes Tuchel has fallen out with the higher ups at other clubs but as had been stated numerous times in multiple threads Tuchel was vindicated and right in two of those cases with PSG and Chelsea and Bayern fans have done a petition to keep Tuchel at the club so that should tell non Bayern fans how highly he’s thought of there by their fans even if the board don’t agree.

I personally have had enough of watching us tactically clueless every week and getting dominated by every team we play against and nothing ever change due to ETH being horrific tactically or too stubborn to change anything then publicly claim we’re one of the best teams around to watch, either he’s tactically clueless or the players refuse to listen to him and whichever it is isn’t acceptable and is untenable.

 

[Lyng]

PSG walked all of Poch’s league seasons where he managed them from matchday 1 though, unlike ahem…

Chelsea… good one, under Boehly Tuchel lost 3 of his 7 matches so I don’t see Poch doing worse.

And, that’s how good he is right? He’s being compared to Poch.

Under Boehly yes. How did he do under Abramovich. Poch has turned them into a terrible team.
How did PSG do in the Champions League under Poch?

Tuchel won every league with PSG that he was allowed to finish.

Look at Dortmund after he left compared to the seasons under him.

You began comparing him to Poch. He is in a different league to Poch. When Poch wins a Champions league we can have that conversation.

 

[AndySmith1990]

Oh how I wish we were run like Bayern. We can't even announce we're parting ways with a man who dumped us out of a piss easy CL group

 

[Rojofiam]

Oh how I wish we were run like Bayern. We can't even announce we're parting ways with a man who dumped us out of a piss easy CL group

Replacing Tuchel with Rangnick, so well run, wow

Hoeness publicly shitting on the current manager in the media as well

 

[Theonas]

Got it. So, from the 10s to now, the 5 CLs by Real don’t count and neither do the 2 CLs by Chelsea or the Inter title.

I think you’re cherry picking a bit here, mate. If you’re stripping out over half of the teams that have won it, perhaps your point isn’t as strong as it could be…

A side note, Porto had 46% possession in the final v Monaco, yet won 3-0.

Are you trolling? Because there is no way you failed to understand the entirety of my post. I read it myself again because I could't believe how anyone could deduct what you wrote from what I said. Let's just avoid each other's posts from now on.

 

[Theonas]

Replacing Tuchel with Rangnick, so well run, wow

Hoeness publicly shitting on the current manager in the media as well

Don't forget making such a big deal out of how Nagelsmann is the future and the long term appointment, then fire him mid season, fire the people who fired him, wait 10 months, fire his replacement and ask him to go back only to be turned down by him. I think our fans are just frustrated with everything at the club and rightly so, that they applaud whatever actions anybody else makes if it's perceived to be the opposite of what we do. Because there is no way anyone can evaluate how Bayern have been run the last two years as anything but shambolic.

 

[George The Best]

Best out there by a country mile, that are available. Very much doubt he will want it though as better offers are likely to come in for him. This job is a graveyard for managers with a good CV, unless all they want is the money. Just don’t think it’s his gig to re-build a derelict squad, not his forte at all. Would still welcome him though, if that’s what the powers that be decide. He’s a master tactician and would get ten times more out of this lot than EtH.

 

[the_cliff]

Best out there by a country mile, that are available. Very much doubt he will want it though as better offers are likely to come in for him. This job is a graveyard for managers with a good CV, unless all they want is the money. Just don’t think it’s his gig to re-build a derelict squad, not his forte at all. Would still welcome him though, if that’s what the powers that be decide. He’s a master tactician and would get ten times more out of this lot than EtH.

He definitely wants it. Wants to return to England, has practically said it in an interview. Only Chelsea and United will most likely need managers in the summer and one of them fired him at the beginning of last season.

 

[Theonas]

Best out there by a country mile, that are available. Very much doubt he will want it though as better offers are likely to come in for him. This job is a graveyard for managers with a good CV, unless all they want is the money. Just don’t think it’s his gig to re-build a derelict squad, not his forte at all. Would still welcome him though, if that’s what the powers that be decide. He’s a master tactician and would get ten times more out of this lot than EtH.

What other big jobs are still available this summer?

 

[The Firestarter]

I dont think he has the nerves necessary for the United job. Seems an easily annoyed control freak but without the charisma of Pep. That being said, if we have the proper structure established and just let him be a coach, I think there is a chance this team actually learns some tactical discipline .

 

[Tyrion]

I'd take Tuchel in a heartbeat. He'd be our best manager since SAF.

Don't forget making such a big deal out of how Nagelsmann is the future and the long term appointment, then fire him mid season, fire the people who fired him, wait 10 months, fire his replacement and ask him to go back only to be turned down by him. I think our fans are just frustrated with everything at the club and rightly so, that they applaud whatever actions anybody else makes if it's perceived to be the opposite of what we do. Because there is no way anyone can evaluate how Bayern have been run the last two years as anything but shambolic.

Agreed. They've an overwhelming financial advantage over every German club and still lost the league in pretty embarrassing circumstances. That's the kind of thing we'd do.

 

[Wilt]

Because public criticism can be very easily interpreted as scapegoating and deflection. Or even bullying. Because work relationships are not on even footing, a player cannot publicly criticise the manager without repercussions.

Also how does not criticising them publicly make them untouchable, can you explain that? Players that aren't criticised publicly cannot be dropped to the bench and sold at the end of the season, or what?

Kim may well have cost Bayern the CL final and will no doubt be critisised by everyone, fans, press, you, me ….we can all say what we like, but the manager can’t say anything. If Lewis Hamilton loses a race because his pit team screwed up, he‘s almost certain to mention it publicly ….or perhaps a jockey loses a valuable race through bad judgement, the trainer will say nothing? ….rubbish, of course he will.

It‘s so pathetic when a football manager is grilled by the press as to why his team lost a match, when everyone knows it was because a certain player had totally fecked up. Yet in order to protect the player responsible the manager has to concoct some bullshit story, avoiding what actually happened.

Everyone should be accountable for their actions, including footballers ….if they’re happy to suck up the adulation when they play well, then it should go both ways.

Just my personal opinion, bearing in mind there is no rule to say a manager can’t publicly critisise a player.

 

[Reyoji-Utd]

Just hired the best manager possible at this point and i think that is what Ineos going to do base on their comments. We have to look at the squad and think if young unproven managers comes in with these players we have, are they going to get the respect and authority they suppose to have? What happens when we going through the ups and downs for 2 seasons, are fans and board still confindence.

Just do like Real Madrid, hired the best to steady the ship, challenge or wins us somethings, build the squad during that time (the top and their co. should build the squad and overlook the manager performances), if managers not doing good then part ways and find anorher. Winning is what good teams are doing and keep winning is what great teams do. United used to keep winning and winning and performances are not good all the times but i dont see much complain from us fans.

 

[Rojofiam]

Don't forget making such a big deal out of how Nagelsmann is the future and the long term appointment, then fire him mid season, fire the people who fired him, wait 10 months, fire his replacement and ask him to go back only to be turned down by him. I think our fans are just frustrated with everything at the club and rightly so, that they applaud whatever actions anybody else makes if it's perceived to be the opposite of what we do. Because there is no way anyone can evaluate how Bayern have been run the last two years as anything but shambolic.

Agreed. They're usually a well-run club, but recently that hasn't been the case in my book. It has to be mentioned that they also basically have a monopoly on the Bundesliga, so they don't have to worry about dropping out of top 4 if they aren't operating incredibly shrewdly, like a Premier League club has to. Same goes for Real Madrid, Barcelona and PSG.

 

[Rojofiam]

Best out there by a country mile, that are available. Very much doubt he will want it though as better offers are likely to come in for him. This job is a graveyard for managers with a good CV, unless all they want is the money. Just don’t think it’s his gig to re-build a derelict squad, not his forte at all. Would still welcome him though, if that’s what the powers that be decide. He’s a master tactician and would get ten times more out of this lot than EtH.

Really? I'm pretty sure that the United job is something he would ditch everything for, especially considering that Barcelona and Real Madrid aren't looking for a new manager this summer.

 

[Rojofiam]

I dont think he has the nerves necessary for the United job. Seems an easily annoyed control freak but without the charisma of Pep. That being said, if we have the proper structure established and just let him be a coach, I think there is a chance this team actually learns some tactical discipline .

In what way do you believe he's a control freak? If I'm not mistaken, he's first and foremost a head coach who isn't really bothered about recruitment and is only focused on the first team. That means he should be an ideal candidate for Ineos as the centerpiece of the new structure they're putting in place at the club.

 

[croadyman]

Tuchel isn't a yes man so I can't see him coming to United as Ineos and the people upstairs will be making all the decisions.

Yes they want to play with a defined style,however don't necessarily think they are specifically looking for a "yes man" but could be wrong

 

[gajender]

In what way do you believe he's a control freak? If I'm not mistaken, he's first and foremost a head coach who isn't really bothered about recruitment and is only focused on the first team. That means he should be an ideal candidate for Ineos as the centerpiece of the new structure they're putting in place at the club.

He absolutely is bothered about recruitment while not in terms of names but more in terms of profiles he wants and he is not afraid to be vocal and abrasive about it if he doesn't gets his way .

So we may again find ourselves in a situation where recruitment is Coach centric not ideal given our history Post Sir Alex's retirement .

 

[croadyman]

I like him as a manager, however there seems to be three issues which keep recurring in this thread and those are

Can he rebuild a team

Can he work with INEOS hierarchy

Can he man manage this Utd dressing room

 

[OT_United]

Absolutely the stand out candidate.
Available this summer and seems very keen on returning to the PL.
Has the authority that ETH doesn’t have and is tactically brilliant.

 

[Remember the geese]

Absolutely the stand out candidate.
Available this summer and seems very keen on returning to the PL.
Has the authority that ETH doesn’t have and is tactically brilliant.

He's alright. Nothing worth getting excited about.

 

[caid]

I like him as a manager, however there seems to be three issues which keep recurring in this thread and those are

Can he rebuild a team

Can he work with INEOS hierarchy

Can he man manage this Utd dressing room

I can buy that he can rebuild a team. Does that rebuild start from step 1 yet again though?
Is he actually keen on sticking with Mainoo, Garnacho and Hojlund for the next couple of years? Is Martinez going to be in his plans. Will he want Casemiro and Varane around for a year or two or could he go in the other direcion and decide McTominay and Maguire are central parts of his team. Will he do a bit of everything and spend a year assessing the same players yet again?
I think he's clearly the best manager available at the moment if its purely a case of who can make best use of the players available right now. I just think thats probably not the right way of thinking about it. Maybe some growing pains wouldn't be the worst thing in the world and finishing 5th instead of 3rd for a couple of years while setting a more stable foundation is a better choice at this point in time.
Part of the me thinks he'd be kind of wasted on us at this point in time. We'd burn through him in a couple of years with lots of short term signings that'll give us a couple of mid tier cup finals that satisfies no one and its back to square one yet again.

 

[gajender]

I can buy that he can rebuild a team. Does that rebuild start from step 1 yet again though?
Is he actually keen on sticking with Mainoo, Garnacho and Hojlund for the next couple of years? Is Martinez going to be in his plans. Will he want Casemiro and Varane around for a year or two or could he go in the other direcion and decide McTominay and Maguire are central parts of his team. Will he do a bit of everything and spend a year assessing the same players yet again?
I think he's clearly the best manager available at the moment if its purely a case of who can make best use of the players available right now. I just think thats probably not the right way of thinking about it. Maybe some growing pains wouldn't be the worst thing in the world and finishing 5th instead of 3rd for a couple of years while setting a more stable foundation is a better choice at this point in time.
Part of the me thinks he'd be kind of wasted on us at this point in time. We'd burn through him in a couple of years with lots of short term signings that'll give us a couple of mid tier cup finals that satisfies no one and its back to square one yet again.

We need to go for an actual young manager who is showing promise and comes without baggage , who can evolve and progress with the team . Somebody who is ready to work for longer terms goals even if it means there might not be no chance of glory in short term .

I don't think Tuchel a seasoned manager falls into that category he would demand Instant fixes before we go into the football his teams usually plays which is another negative against him .

 

[davidmichael]

He absolutely is bothered about recruitment while not in terms of names but more in terms of profiles he wants and he is not afraid to be vocal and abrasive about it if he doesn't gets his way .

So we may again find ourselves in a situation where recruitment is Coach centric not ideal given our history Post Sir Alex's retirement .

The only time he was vocal about recruitment as stated in this thread and other ones was at PSG when Leonardo wanted to bring in big names and just stick them on the pitch whether they could fit or not and Tuchel didn’t want that as he wanted to players to fit the system, Tuchel was then proven right and Leonardo moved on from his role after Tuchel had gone.

At Chelsea he fell out with them because Boehly wanted Tuchel to be their Sir Alex and be the man of all roles which Tuchel didn’t want as he just wanted to be head coach, Boehly had fired Cech and Marina and though between himself and Tuchel they could fill every role needed even though that kind of manager died out with Sir Alex and Wenger.

Putting top of class football people in as the footballing structure with a genuine idea of footballing identity, style of play, recruitment and scouting means Tuchel can do what he wants to do which is to just be head coach for which he’s actually one of the best around.

 

[lon ball2]

I like him as a manager, however there seems to be three issues which keep recurring in this thread and those are

Can he rebuild a team

Can he work with INEOS hierarchy

Can he man manage this Utd dressing room

those questions hang over every potential manager. They also hang over Ten Hag abd he’s not answering them emphatically, nor offering any green shoots of progress that suggest it just needs time to click.

we all want that breakthrough candidate to take the fight to Pep, sadly they don’t exist at this moment in time. Tuchel is at the top of the tier below IMHO.

Given how tactically adaptive he is, I’m sure he can work to the paying style defined by INEOS, and will take points off the top six teams in the league. I think Tuchel would bag top four in the league, especially if Liverpool drop a level with Klopp going and the squad ageing

 

[redDNA]

Tuchel is the best out of not so great options out there.

Given his pragmatic style of ,he might get the best out our disjointed squad.

If I were INEOS i will give him 2 years contract (That seems to be his 'elastic limit', before Tuchel does what Tuchel does).Tjis will give us enough time to sign a manager and players suited to how we want to play .

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

He could be a decent short-term option and help the club get back into the CL places. Which, i guess, will be the first objective. Especially if we're handicapped by FFP and our inability to move on players. He's also a safety first manager, which can endear him to the fans after the "trauma" of this season. But i agree with those suggesting he's not the one who'll build a side able to compete in the long-term. I am not a fan, but if the right candidate isn't available and the other "first step or stop-gap" options are Potter and Southgate, i'd take him. But if a true reshaping of the team isn't in the cards and we continue with this "evolution, not revolution" modus operandi, it'll all end in tears (again) and we'll only have ourselves to blame.

 

[Farfetched]

If there is to be a change in the head coach position then he is the obvious choice. A high quality coach, complete with winning trophies, having premier league experience and available, it’s a no brainier.

I was excited with the appointment of Eric and wanted to be patient with him working with and developing the squad. What I can’t get my head around is that very little seems to be done about the “open door” policy we have in midfield. We have conceded so many goals from opponents drifting in to open space to score goals which have hurt us badly in important games.

It’s been asked can Tuchel rebuild, work with INEOS and work with the squad. If appointed it would be by the INEOS team and each of their visions should come out in the recruitment process; so if appointed that would mean they all know what’s to be done to work together and to make it a success . Now that there are footballing people in the recruitment team rebuilding should be more coherent. Working with the current squad, or what possible remains after a summer clear out, I believe he will get the team set up where we play better and be lass flaky when we do concede thereby bring the squad around to his way.

I would be happy to see him as our coach.

 

[Rake]

I like him as a manager, however there seems to be three issues which keep recurring in this thread and those are

Can he rebuild a team

Can he work with INEOS hierarchy

Can he man manage this Utd dressing room

I think the whole point of the current staff changes is to actually not rely on the manager for that. The other 2 are true for any manager in any team, albeit multiplied in our case.

 

[giggs-beckham]

It's normal to criticize a specific player. Tuchel did it yesterday, but when Ten Hag criticizes Garnacho, the media are quick to judge Ten Hag's man management.

That's because it is bad man management

 

[Schmeichels pinky]

Do Bayern look bad? I don't watch much Bundesliga

Yes, by their standards they do.

His man-management is decent but can go wrong with certain players, just like any other manager in the world

I’d love to hear how you come to that conclusion. Everything I’ve seen from him suggest that man management is his most pronounced weakness. Throwing players under the bus isn’t strong leadership, it’s weak leadership. Look at Klopp or Pep and how they protect their players. Does anyone doubt that they criticize them? Of course not, you just don’t do it publicly unless you think it might motivate them - and then you don’t do it like Tuchel, but with respect.

If Tuchel had just one ounce of mentalizing skill he’d be a top, top manager IMO. But I really don’t think he sees his players as much more than pawns he can deploy at will - and he expect them to follow orders without questioning him at all.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

I'm not enthused at all by Tuchel really but every Utd game I watch and see how utterly fecking shit we currently are makes me warm to the idea.

We absolutely cannot stick with ETH.

 

[Schmeichels pinky]

Kim may well have cost Bayern the CL final and will no doubt be critisised by everyone, fans, press, you, me ….we can all say what we like, but the manager can’t say anything. If Lewis Hamilton loses a race because his pit team screwed up, he‘s almost certain to mention it publicly ….or perhaps a jockey loses a valuable race through bad judgement, the trainer will say nothing? ….rubbish, of course he will.

It‘s so pathetic when a football manager is grilled by the press as to why his team lost a match, when everyone knows it was because a certain player had totally fecked up. Yet in order to protect the player responsible the manager has to concoct some bullshit story, avoiding what actually happened.

Everyone should be accountable for their actions, including footballers ….if they’re happy to suck up the adulation when they play well, then it should go both ways.

Just my personal opinion, bearing in mind there is no rule to say a manager can’t publicly critisise a player.

I think you’re talking about two different things here. There’s no problem in a managers criticism of a player’s mistake if it’s done with respect and not to just single him out. I agree with you that sometimes it’s just comical and ridiculous when a manager tries to avoid mentioning a player who had an obviously horrific game.
It’s another matter entirely when a manager blames one player alone for a defeat. Then it exacerbates the shitstorm and often comes off as deflection - the team could just have scored one more goal or kept the opponent from scoring.

It all comes down to one thing: Does it help the player and the team or not? If players know that their manager has their back, they’ll usually accept warranted public criticism from him. But if the manager randomly throws single players under the bus, he’ll soon lose their respect and confidence. Also, players have different personalities and while some may use public criticism constructively as fuel, it might hurt the self confidence of others. Then you might say that they need to step up or whatever, but it’s all about the team and if it doesn’t improve the team, the manager needs to abstain from it

 

[Wilt]

I think you’re talking about two different things here. There’s no problem in a managers criticism of a player’s mistake if it’s done with respect and not to just single him out. I agree with you that sometimes it’s just comical and ridiculous when a manager tries to avoid mentioning a player who had an obviously horrific game.
It’s another matter entirely when a manager blames one player alone for a defeat. Then it exacerbates the shitstorm and often comes off as deflection - the team could just have scored one more goal or kept the opponent from scoring.

It all comes down to one thing: Does it help the player and the team or not? If players know that their manager has their back, they’ll usually accept warranted public criticism from him. But if the manager randomly throws single players under the bus, he’ll soon lose their respect and confidence. Also, players have different personalities and while some may use public criticism constructively as fuel, it might hurt the self confidence of others. Then you might say that they need to step up or whatever, but it’s all about the team and if it doesn’t improve the team, the manager needs to abstain from it

Don‘t really disagree with what you say. As I previously said it’s just my personal opinion.

 

[The Firestarter]

In what way do you believe he's a control freak? If I'm not mistaken, he's first and foremost a head coach who isn't really bothered about recruitment and is only focused on the first team. That means he should be an ideal candidate for Ineos as the centerpiece of the new structure they're putting in place at the club.

In the sense that he starts weirdly jumping around every time his instructions were not carried out to the t. I was referring to the micromanagement during games, not the controlling of transfers. And I also don't think he is not bother by recruitment, in the sense that he doesn't care what he gets. Its more like he does not want to be bothered with the logistics of it.

 

[croadyman]

There is no doubt he can steady the ship,however are INEOS looking for someone to do that whilst finding a manager who fits the style of play they are looking to implement