Thoughts on Tuchel as a potential United manager?

[Maticmaker]

People love to rewrite history and say that Fergie was just a motivator but not a good tactician when in fact he was both, which was key to his longevity.

Who is rewriting history?
Read SAF's books, listen to those who worked with him, same with Sir Matt, they were excellent man managers and tacticians , not just motivators. Sir Matt was a 'speak softly and carry a big stick' sort of guy who knew what he wanted and worked to that end, taking the first English team into Europe. Sir Alex was a no nonsense guy, understood the needs of the PL better and before most other managers( thats how he got Eric the Great, rescued him from Leeds), but who could still tear your hair out one minute the next have his arm around you, their knowledge of the game in their respective era's was top drawer'.
By modern day standards however their approach on the training pitch was to employ good technical coaches for face to face work and to fit their skills into each's own methodology.
They were both always... 'the Boss'

There are different arguments as to what was key to SAF's longevity, a combination perhaps of his ability to change things before they went stale, bringing in new training staff to change the programmes to prevent boredom, or to fill gaps in the training skills available, goalkeeping coaches etc.and of course bringing in reinforcements to the squad of players at the right times (with David Gill's assistance). All this was due to him being the Manager, not the chief coach.... which is what we might finish up with when Sir Jim gets going.

 

[Wilt]

No woman in Manchester will be safe. The rascal.

I’ve seen a few Manchester lasses ….think they’ll be quite safe

 

[Maticmaker]

When Matt Busby arrived at Old Trafford in October 1945 he introduced the concept of the tracksuit manager.

Didn't he joke that he got that name, because Old Trafford was still bombed out, he had no office to go to... so joined the players on the pitch.

 

[Schmeichels pinky]

His record with Bayern this season is quite good pointswise. Some of you really underrate how good Leverkusen are this season.

He has by far the best squad in the league including Harry Kane at 30+ goals. Yet their performances have often been dire and there are many indications that things are not quite working off the pitch either - which wouldn’t be a surprise with Tuchels tendency to alienate or divide his squads.

Potter and some of the other hipster managers are too risky/unexciting. Southgate could probably handle it and IMO he'd do better than most - maybe not as a title challenger but he'd likely be a step up from where we are now.

Hipster? Come on, so every manager aside from the ones in top 10 clubs are hipster managers? It would be hipster-like to suggest Zagreb’s or Dynamo Dresden’s managers - not Graham Potter. Then it’s just an attempt to ridicule other suggestions.

I don’t care at all if a manager is “exciting” as long as they get us playing well and win. And I don’t see how Potter or Thomas Frank for example are more of a risk than some of these supposed top managers who circulate big clubs for years without really showing a lot. Tuchel might well be the worst of them.

 

[DJ_21]

Don’t think Tuchel the type of manager to set the right example to players. We’ve got players that aren’t on the same wave length and falling out according to some reports. Our squad is broken. Is Tuchel the manager to fix it? I’m not sure

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

His record with Bayern this season is quite good pointswise.

Not really, he looks likely to amass a points total that was beaten in all Bayern seasons dating back to 2014. The only season it betters, was his own last year.

Leverkusen have been great obviously, but that doesn’t excuse how average he’s been again despite signing Europe’s best striker.

 

[Ikon]

Must admit, I didn't realize just how many Trophies Tuchel has already won in his career (Dortmund x1, PSG x6, Chelsea x3, Bayern x1) but then you'd expect to pick up a sack full of silverware at Bayern & PSG, and be in with a decent shout at Dortmund & Chelsea.

Biggest concern about him for me, is that he hasn't settled at any club for more than a couple of seasons, which I'm not sure fits into the INEOS vision of building for the long term.

 

[VWW]

I like him but my issue with him is when he throws players under the bus like what he said about Kim. Although he was correct in his comments I just dont like a manager doing that in the media. I dont wanna go back to the Mourinho days.

 

[LilienFan]

erm… also somehow lost the league at PSG.

Do you just make this sh*t up as you go along? He won the league, won the league again, and they were 3rd a point behind Lyon in first, when he was fired IN DECEMBER. They also had like a two week break between the end of their CL final and the start of the new season to prepare.

Tuchel departed Paris Saint-Germain with a record of 95 wins, 13 draws, and 19 defeats in 127 games, with the best win percentage in Ligue 1 history (75.6%) and the highest average of points per game (2.37, tied with his predecessor Emery).[134][133] Before leaving Paris, Tuchel facilitated the medical expenses for his housemaid's child's heart surgery, and enabled her to return home to the Philippines by purchasing her family a property in the country.[135][136]

Not sure why City even try so hard this year. They already lost the league in December, when they were trailing Arsenal and Liverpool by 3-6 points all month, temporarily dropping behind Villa and Tottenham, too.

 

[Wilt]

I like him but my issue with him is when he throws players under the bus like what he said about Kim. Although he was correct in his comments I just dont like a manager doing that in the media. I dont wanna go back to the Mourinho days.

Personally I’ve no problem with managers outing players poor performances, if managers can be publicly crucified for poor performances then so should players.

If players are happy to accept plaudits for good play, then they should also accept criticism for the bad stuff.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Do you just make this sh*t up as you go along? He won the league, won the league again, and they were 3rd a point behind Lyon in first, when he was fired IN DECEMBER.

Are you gonna absolve him of responsibility man

He took them into the season, got fired after 17 games because they were shite and had already lost 4, unthinkable for a team like PSG. As usual he also blamed everyone but himself and fell out with the club.
Poch, who was catapulted in still managed a better ppg ratio in the remaining games. Tuchel was hugely at fault for that loss.

 

[Catt]

Bit of a mad house, isn't he

 

[Blood Mage]

Just lightyears better than the current muppet we have in charge and it's worrying that so many on here can't see that.

 

[MadMike]

I don’t like this archetype of experienced manager who’s drifted from club to club.

I’d much prefer the young, hungry manager from a lower league who’s radically outperformed and is given the chance to step up. I think that’s how you find diamonds, even if you end up with duds along the way. Truth is we’ve had plenty of experienced duds lately too.

I tend to agree. And the other thing is these big-name, experienced managers often come not only with hefty contractual demands (both pay and length) but also with demands over control. ETH famously argued for more control over transfer policy and didn't want to work under Rangnick, getting the latter sacked as a condition for joining. He got the control he wanted and he spunked an incredible amount of money on players he knew (Antony, Onana, Mount, Martinez, Malacia) with very little to show for it. He also used the same agency (Kees Vos / SEG) who's representing him and employing his son as analyst, for a lot of these deals.

A young manager who's outperformed in lower leagues might be carrying the risk of not having the respect of the players, and that is something the board can help with. But they certainly don't come in with hefty financial demands or with a list of players / agents they want to work with. Things are simpler with them. And if they fail, they are cheaper to replace than big names.

 

[RedDevil@84]

If he takes that tone with the snowflakes we have in this team, the players will be desperately calling out their media friends for hurting their feelings and emotional abuse.

 

[SAF is the GOAT]

 

[mu4c_20le]

Bit of a mad house, isn't he

Handsome, brilliant mad house

 

[antohan]

• Dortmund. 2nd, 3rd, sacked.
• PsG. 1st, 1st, 2nd at midway (on less ppg than Poch managed), sacked.
• Chelsea. 3rd, feck me season and sacked.
• Bayern. 1st, 2nd, sacked.

Looks like someone who can steady the ship and knock some sense into this lot while we transition the squad

I don’t like this archetype of experienced manager who’s drifted from club to club.

I’d much prefer the young, hungry manager from a lower league who’s radically outperformed and is given the chance to step up. I think that’s how you find diamonds, even if you end up with duds along the way. Truth is we’ve had plenty of experienced duds lately too.

We won't find any diamonds that way, not now, they are destined to fail. We need to give it a couple of seasons before someone like that has the right platform.

Even if you look at City and Guardiola, Soriano and Txiki started laying the ground for him in 2012 and it still took him a couple of seasons to start winning anything. We wouldn't be as patient with a struggling young randomer.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Just lightyears better than the current muppet we have in charge and it's worrying that so many on here can't see that.

Who can’t see that? I haven’t seen anyone with that opinion?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Looks like someone who can steady the ship and knock some sense into this lot while we transition the squad
.

Well I will admit, it’s 100% what Ed Woodward would do.

 

[RoyH1]

If he takes that tone with the snowflakes we have in this team, the players will be desperately calling out their media friends for hurting their feelings and emotional abuse.

I can already imagine the articles.
Whoever we bring in, has to have 100% backing from the owners/board/directors to make the manager completely and absolutely invulnerable to press/agent agendas. If the results and process are sound, the individual player will have to conform or be shown the door.

 

[MadMike]

Personally I’ve no problem with managers outing players poor performances, if managers can be publicly crucified for poor performances then so should players.

If players are happy to accept plaudits for good play, then they should also accept criticism for the bad stuff.

That... doesn't make any sense. Managers are almost never publicly crucified for their poor performances. Not by their superiors, anyway. When was the last time you heard a Director of Football or CEO publicly laying blame on a serving (not past) manager?

And if you meant that they get crucified by outsiders to the club (press or fans) then... where have you been living? So do the players. Have you visited a player performance thread after a defeat? Have you seen a post-game pundit analysis? Players get crucified all the time.

But it's one thing for some nameless fan, or some media hack who you've never met, blaming you. And another thing for the manager, who you work with every day and has sway over your career, doing the same publicly.

 

[Freak]

I like him but my issue with him is when he throws players under the bus like what he said about Kim. Although he was correct in his comments I just dont like a manager doing that in the media. I dont wanna go back to the Mourinho days.

I agree but Fergie used to do it once in a while as well - https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...manchester-united-news-alex-ferguson-11918367

 

[OsloRed]

That... doesn't make any sense. Managers are almost never publicly crucified for their poor performances. Not by their superiors, anyway. When was the last time you heard a Director of Football or CEO publicly laying blame on a serving (not past) manager?

And if you meant that they get crucified by outsiders to the club (press or fans) then... where have you been living? So do the players. Have you visited a player performance thread after a defeat? Have you seen a post-game pundit analysis? Players get crucified all the time.

But it's one thing for some nameless fan, or some media hack who you've never met, blaming you. And another thing for the manager, who you work with every day and has sway over your career, doing the same publicly.

Bayern executives are pretty into speaking about their managers in press, tbf.

 

[mu4c_20le]

I like him but my issue with him is when he throws players under the bus like what he said about Kim. Although he was correct in his comments I just dont like a manager doing that in the media. I dont wanna go back to the Mourinho days.

Glad to have another ETH out. The clown has started to throw our young players under the bus this season.

 

[MadMike]

Just lightyears better than the current muppet we have in charge and it's worrying that so many on here can't see that.

I don't see what that has to do with anything. He doesn't need comparing with Ten Hag. If Ten Hag is going, which looks like he is, the question is which is the best available manager to replace him. Those managerial options need comparison against each other, not against the failed, outgoing manager.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Rangnick to Bayern,Tuchel to us. I think it's all been agreed.

 

[Remember the geese]

He can still form part of a longer term plan though. I agree that he isn't necessarily exciting but if he can bring a bit of structure and defensive stability over the next year or two, that's half the battle.

We always look at managers being long term successes but it's really difficult to do that if the foundations aren't set. Ten Hag has pretty much ripped away any foundations we might've had with the football he's tried to play this season so we are starting again from a pretty low ebb.

I'd bring Tuchel in with a built in plan of replacing him with a more ambitious pick in a couple of years once we're a bit more settled. I think that gives the manager after a better chance of finding their feet here and it also gives the club the chance to identify the best candidate of the younger managers as many of them lack experience right now.

I see the logic. Depends if we are happy with appointing a stepping stone manager (Tuchel). I don't think he's the man to take us back to the top and it would be unusual to appoint a manager fully in the knowledge that he will only take us so far. It's why I struggle to get behind the shouts for Emery also. Good manager, but will only take you so far.

 

[antohan]

I like him but my issue with him is when he throws players under the bus like what he said about Kim. Although he was correct in his comments I just dont like a manager doing that in the media. I dont wanna go back to the Mourinho days.

Kim cost them the game. First goal was a fantastic through ball, mind, but the penalty was just ridiculous.

From his comments you can gather we wouldn't be allowing dozens of shots on goal every game. That's a start.

I tend to agree. And the other thing is these big-name, experienced managers often come not only with hefty contractual demands (both pay and length) but also with demands over control.

If we have a bunch of people hired in with fancy titles OKing that then our problem is a different one.

If he comes it will be under their terms or else he won't. It's a non issue.

 

[Remember the geese]

He's not Pep or Klopp (nobody else is), but he's the bracket below with others like Ancelotti etc. He's probably as close to best in class that we will be able to appoint for a while.

The other option is somebody like Motta, who falls into the potential category, and he's there right now if we want to try for him. So we have good options.

That's the conundrum I think. Appoint a 7/8 out of 10 manager or hope to get lucky with an up and coming manager who you hope can be a 9 or a 10.

 

[mu4c_20le]

I don't see what that has to do with anything. He doesn't need comparing with Ten Hag. If Ten Hag is going, which looks like he is, the question is which is the best available manager to replace him. Those managerial options need comparison against each other, not against the failed, outgoing manager.

Potter and Southgate were compared to Ten hag because they aren't necessarily better than what we have. It's a common tactic from ETH inners to justify keeping him for another year.

 

[MadMike]

Bayern executives are pretty into speaking about their managers in press, tbf.

Are they? I think it's mostly Uli Hoeness who's an eccentric old man and he is a non-executive board member. Were Oliver Kahn and Rumenigge vocal against serving managers while they were in the executive? I don't recall.

 

[3KDré]

erm… also somehow lost the league at PSG.

Lost the league at Bayern. His one Bayern title was handed to him by Dortmund hitting self destruct on the final day last season.

The main thing is that his league record at every single club since Dortmund gets worse with every season he is there…

• Dortmund. 2nd, 3rd, sacked.
• PsG. 1st, 1st, 2nd at midway (on less ppg than Poch managed), sacked.
• Chelsea. 3rd, feck me season and sacked.
• Bayern. 1st, 2nd, sacked.

His record looks ok because he’s been at 2 clubs where a title is guaranteed although he almost fecked that up for 2 seasons running at Bayern.
At Chelsea his 3rd place finish before the wheels came off was actually preceded by 2 fourth place finishes so he barely improved them before the walls came crumbling down.

Thanks for the clarification, I was asking based on my limited knowledge.

I am a bit skeptical of him. He does seem more like a cup manager (same as Ten Hag really). I think he was unlucky at PSG, though. Of all their managers since Blanc he seemed to be the one that found the most balance. Don't think anyone else got them to the CL final.

Ultimately, I don't think he is the right fit. United managers need to be massive personalities. He was a great fit for Chelsea and PSG because he made them much more solid and even though we do need that right now it's not the long term goal.

 

[Theonas]

I think he is pretty good tactically as a coach. However, I don't think he has a definite way of playing that is dominant or would set us up playing better football. That, I think, is the reason why he didn't really ever look like challenging for the title in England vs doing well in the CL. For me, he is a bit like prime Mourinho in that I'd fancy him to come into a team that's at a high level and then help them win as a result of his tactical prowess, but I don't think he is the right man to come into a struggling club and build a winning team from scratch. I might be totally off but it's just this nagging feeling when it comes to Tuchel

That's exactly how I see him. People seem to rate managers on a linear scale when the reality is that you have to look at the details of where they excel and whether that fits what your club needs. Ancelotti, Pep and Klopp are as good as it gets but they wouldn't be a perfect fit at every single club looking to win and compete at the highest level. Tuchel has so many qualities that makes him one of the standouts in the past decade but he is not someone to build from where we are. Or at least, he never showed that quality in his career.

 

[Theonas]

He said multiple times how much he likes the PL and that he feels more appreciated in England than in Germany.
I can imagine he would want to join United.

Of course he would like to join us. His stock is as low as it's been since leaving Dortmund. Who else would take him out of the big clubs?

 

[OsloRed]

Are they? I think it's mostly Uli Hoeness who's an eccentric old man and he is a non-executive board member. Were Oliver Kahn and Rumenigge vocal against serving managers while they were in the executive? I don't recall.

You're probably right, I just find the quotes Hoeness came with very weird. I guess it doesn't matter all that much since Tuchel is leaving anyway.

 

[MadMike]

Potter and Southgate were compared to Ten hag because they aren't necessarily better than what we have. It's a common tactic from ETH inners to justify keeping him for another year.

That's a pretty silly thing to do. There comes a point where you have to replace a failing manager even if you don't have an "on paper" better replacement, just to jolt the team and show you don't tolerate failure. The "on paper" quality of the manager matters feck all when they are demonstrably failing and making a hash of things. You can't let a situation fester for too long and make both the manager and players comfortable with failure.

And if you (general you, not you personally) are trying to tell someone that a manager who has spent 400m only to finish 6th-7th with ~0 goal difference, is the best a club of Manchester United's stature can do, then you're basically just admitting to insanity. Just wrap yourself in a white straightjacket, like a burrito, and hand yourself over to the authorities. Don't come arguing over here.

 

[fergiewherearethou]

Just lightyears better than the current muppet we have in charge and it's worrying that so many on here can't see that.

Can't agree more.
I wonder what big clubs, other than us obviously, would keep a manager that is on course on finishing 6-7th...

The fact that Tuchel is not a long term solution doesn't matter at all, Moyes, Ole or ETH were all viewed as long term managers and where did that take us?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The fact that Tuchel is not a long term solution doesn't matter at all, Moyes, Ole or ETH were all viewed as long term managers and where did that take us?

LVG & Mou were seen as short term solutions, where did that take us?

 

[MadMike]

You're probably right, I just find the quotes Hoeness came with very weird. I guess it doesn't matter all that much since Tuchel is leaving anyway.

They are weird. He's a board member and his opinion of the manager/head coach should be delivered to the executive, not to the press. Opinions and criticisms in a working environment should be confined to it. I don't like Tuchel publicly blaming KMJ any more or less than I like Hoeness speaking on Tuchel.