Thoughts on Tuchel as a potential United manager?

[SER19]

If ineos plan is to build a squad and academy towards some style of play and club ethos hiring tuchel for 2 years probably can't go too far wrong. He's unlikely to make us worse and can certainly coach, ineos would need control of transfers of course but 2 years of tuchel is 2 summer windows, 2 winter windows and if you've turned the squad over nicely and implemented some sense of a coached team then you change him for the right candidate when that person appears. We've to think longer term and accept nobody will come in for a decade and rebuild the team as a manager

 

[Jeffthered]

I like him l, I do, but he is a bit of a charlatan, not as good as he thinks he is, and has ego/public profile issues.. he loves the spotlight, and frequently has something to say to elicit attention (like Jose, ETH etc..) so no thanks.

Question: Why can't we, as a club, a huge, global corporation, commercially mega-successful, proper football club, approach things (like Newcastle, Liverpool, Villa, Brighton, Spurs etc..) sort these things out professionally, and efficiently ?

Our approach to Gary O'Neil for example was a mess. Why? ( and I rate Gary O'Neil highly, great young manager potential.. )

 

[spe88]

If Tuchel comes in and plays a 3-4-2-1 I think that could really suit us.

It does make me worry that we’re still waiting for Ashworth and what direction we will go. One positive is that the EURO’s tends to delay most activity until after the tournament.

 

[DRJosh]

INEOS have been really strategic thus far in shaping the club, starting with the top of the footballing hierarchy. Everything suggests ETH will get to see this season to its end before he is dismissed.

Reactionary changes rarely reap rewards - however hiring Ole as interim manager was perhaps one instance where it paid dividends almost instantly ….at least while that fairytale lasted.

 

[the_cliff]

He's definitely not happy.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Funny thing is there'll be people here blaming him for falling out with the Bayern management and using it as a reason to say he's a hot head or Mourinho 2.0.

 

[DON’T PANIC ™]

Who? Like Klopp?

Maybe in another universe but certainly not in this one. Hate the guy.

 

[2cents]

On paper he’s the best qualified possibly available candidate right now.

 

[glazed]

Top managers live or die by their reputation and Old Trafford is a reputation graveyard. He will just get frustrated and leave. Sort out the frankenstein squad problems and then get in an elite manager.

 

[stefan92]

I get what you're saying but getting Harry Kane is a game changer for any manager surely?

Sure. Doesn't change the fact that the board fecked up two of three areas of the squad

 

[Pintu]

He's definitely not happy.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Funny thing is there'll be people here blaming him for falling out with the Bayern management and using it as a reason to say he's a hot head or Mourinho 2.0.

Very weird comments from the Bayern leadership. 3 days before the most important game of their season and they chose to stir up some shiit like this with their manager instead of helping him have more serenity…

 

[Pintu]

On paper he’s the best qualified possibly available candidate right now.

On paper, Klopp (I know) and Zidane are also very qualified and both available.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

On paper, Klopp (I know) and Zidane are also very qualified and both available.

I doubt Zidane would fancy coming to a club in such a mess. He wants one he can come into and win straight away.

 

[2cents]

On paper, Klopp (I know) and Zidane are also very qualified and both available.

Sure, I probably should have added “realistic”.

 

[roonster09]

On paper, Klopp (I know) and Zidane are also very qualified and both available.

Pep is also available.

 

[Reyoji-Utd]

Is he really that bad of a manager? All the teams that he been with, we can say that they are not the good clubs that we should be reference off of for manager at least the time when he with them. I dont follow his career but his CV is probably the best we could get at this time.

2 or 3 years are enough for all parties if things are not going right. We cant expect or put too much pressure to make the next manager is the right one that will guide us back to glory days again. We cant depend too much on manager alone, everyone has to be on the same page from top to bottom in this club. It seems that we put too mucb emphasis to have this perfect manager as our next manager. This perfect figuer does not exist (have to go back SAF), every mananger now has their pros and cons, lets analyse and see which one is best for us and go for it. If it not happening for us then move on to the next one.

 

[Pintu]

Pep is also available.

He is not… he is under contract until 2025. Abu Dhabi aren’t selling out that contract.

But I agree with @2cents Tuchel is clearly the best among the coaches we can expect to recruit.

 

[DavelinaJolie]

Top managers live or die by their reputation and Old Trafford is a reputation graveyard. He will just get frustrated and leave. Sort out the frankenstein squad problems and then get in an elite manager.

Genuine question, who are the "elite" managers? By the definition there's very few of them, and I would imagine the list would be Guardiola, Ancelotti, Klopp.... I genuinely can't think of any more out there that would be on the same level (I'm sure some would include Zidane). We aren't getting any of those, so we're then looking at either up and coming managers (Amorim, De Zerbi, Motta etc), or established managers that have proven ability but are not likely to join the elite.

Maybe that picture changes in a year or two, but I doubt it for some reason.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

All this talk of him not being a long term appointment, can we stop with the thought process that every manager that comes through the door is going to have a fergie like long term reign.

There is nothing wrong having a manager for just two year as long as we are proactive in the future in Looking for improved replacement

I actually think you’re missing the point here. I couldn’t give two shits if the next manager is going to be here for two years or five. With LVG it was clear to everybody from the start that it would be 3 to 4 years maximum and I think that’s a good starting point for a new manager.

However, it would be very typical of the last decade for us to bring in a manager who has a very specific style of his own (3 CB’s, wing backs, rather boring football) and that doesn’t seem to be the kind of style any of us would really want to employ in the long run.

The best thing we can possibly do as a club is maintain a strategy for how we want to play and to buy both players and employ managers that have a similar strategy. Jumping from Moyes to super possession LVG, to park the bus pragmatic Mourinho, to counter attack Ole, to super counter press Ragnick, to I have no idea ETH has been our biggest problem by far. Jumping to Tuchel now would be a continuation of that expensive strategy.

 

[JPRouve]

Is he really that bad of a manager? All the teams that he been with, we can say that they are not the good clubs that we should be reference off of for manager at least the time when he with them. I dont follow his career but his CV is probably the best we could get at this time.

2 or 3 years are enough for all parties if things are not going right. We cant expect or put too much pressure to make the next manager is the right one that will guide us back to glory days again. We cant depend too much on manager alone, everyone has to be on the same page from top to bottom in this club. It seems that we put too mucb emphasis to have this perfect manager as our next manager. This perfect figuer does not exist (have to go back SAF), every mananger now has their pros and cons, lets analyse and see which one is best for us and go for it. If it not happening for us then move on to the next one.

He isn't bad at all, let alone that bad.

 

[roonster09]

He is not… he is under contract until 2025. Abu Dhabi aren’t selling out that contract.

But I agree with @2cents Tuchel is clearly the best among the coaches we can expect to recruit.

If you pay them trillion pounds, they won't reject that. So yeah, Pep is available.

 

[croadyman]

Genuinely think he could be a good fit for INEOS as will allow him to just coach,however do understand people's concerns about his character and league results too.

Even if it doesn't work out with him then at least we would have a proper structure in place. We also need to get rid of this compensation for not making Champions League too.

 

[JJ12]

Think you misunderstand my point. I think the new owners are gonna want people that will just get on with the job and not argue. Tuchel will most likely want control over signings. We’re trying to get rid of that.

Ahh right - I was genuine in my question just to get better understanding of the owners

 

[MadDogg]

However, it would be very typical of the last decade for us to bring in a manager who has a very specific style of his own (3 CB’s, wing backs, rather boring football) and that doesn’t seem to be the kind of style any of us would really want to employ in the long run.

Is that the case though? I'll be the first to admit that I haven't paid that much attention to Tuchel and how his teams play, but others on here have said that Chelsea was the only club that he really preferred three at the back and that he tends to base his formation on what players he has available.

A quick glance through his games at the different clubs seem to back that up.

Dortmund was four at the back in his first season, then in his second season he started off with four then changed to three after a couple of months.
PSG was a bit of both in the first season, then four at the back in his second, then a bit of both again in his third.
Chelsea - Mostly three at the back.
Bayern - Four at the back both seasons.

So he definitely doesn't seem wedded to any particular formation.

 

[STYLOISRED]

He’s not the ideal candidate, however ETH coaching of the club this year and his stubbornness now has made him being here next season untenable!

With the current squad the only coach who has PL experience that could hit the ground running is Tuchel

Pros -
Premier League Experience
Previous CL winner and two times finalist
Anglophile whose even got Eric Dier playing
Speaks perfect English
Contrary to popular belief he plays attacking football
His teams are defensively sound
Was a sweeper as a player not against the idea in his teams
Gets to Domestic and European Finals quite regularly
His teams play with a lot of intensity
Flexible in team formation has played 4231 and a flat 433 and even 541 in CL final to beat Pep.
Has reached 14 Domestic and European Finals
He’s won 8 out of 14, losing 4 on pens
He’s won every single semi final he’s played in, this could be bad news for Real Madrid?


Cons
1. Wants control of transfers
2. Not very good at recruiting players
3. Constantly falls out with players
4. Not great with youth
5. Will definitely bring back Sancho
6. Will want to keep Rashford and Greenwood
7. Garnaucho will be benched
8. Mainoo marginlised but he will use him, how can you not.
9. Guaranteed to fall out with Wilcox and Ashworth with in 2 years maximum
10. He’ll change the Goal keeper


I really don’t know why so many fans are against this, for me this is Jose 2.0 but with more attacking output, he’s a huge upgrade and currently the only option plus he’s wanted the United job for a very long time.

1. The main reason he fell out with Boehly at Chelsea was because he didn't want to be involved in any transfers and wanted to focus on coaching so this point is provably false.

2. Yes and like It has been said, he has never really cared about recruitment. In all the teams he has managed he has tweaked his tactics to fit available players in the squad. What he does is recommend positions that need reinforcement latest example was he insisting Bayern get a very good DM before the season started.

3. False! He constantly falls out with upper management and not with his players. Even with the Egos at PSG he didn't fall out and given how terribly Poch managed to handle the egos in the squad, it makes Tuchel's time there quite impressive.

4. This is one line that people troth out as If there is any way to objectively measure how good a manager is with youth. Pep has been at Manchester City for 8 years, how many youth players has he developed in that time?? Similarly for Klopp. At the top of the football pyramid only the best of the best make it and any manager that managers ability to "develop youth" can not be objectively measured. What you can look into, is how well these managers can mould players to play in systems that elevate their qualities and in that regard Tuchel is one of the most tactically rigorous managers in the world today.

5. That's not his decision to make. If the INEOS crew have any sense, they will not put the fate of players like Sancho and Greenwood in his hand because again, he likes to focus on coaching and doesn't really care much for politics. Although I willing to bet Sancho would not last under his strict tactical setup

6. I don't even know why i bother with points 5, 6, 7 and 8 because they are all scenarios that you have made up in your head with no evidence at all and i don't know why.
Mainoo is the dream Tuchel deep midfielder. He has always made space for midfielders like (deep lying playemaker that picks up the ball from the defence and facilitates play) that in every team he has managed. I'm willing to bet he will do wonders for Mainoo's development.

9. If you bothered to spend any time reading the context behind his fallout with upper management at his previous clubs you'd be happy to have him hear because in all cases he has been proven right. He fell out with the Dortmund board because they sold many of their players without any form of adequate replacement. Fell out with Loenardo and NEK who were obsessed with buying super stars instead of sensible recruitment for proper squad building and Like already mentioned and proven over time, Boehly was a shitty CEO who is way over his head.

10. This is also a point you've made up with no evidence.

 

[bondsname]

Top managers live or die by their reputation and Old Trafford is a reputation graveyard. He will just get frustrated and leave. Sort out the frankenstein squad problems and then get in an elite manager.

Frankenstein Squad is my new favorite term. Hopefully INEOS can sort that out instead of buying players mindlessly to sell merchandise and kits. That's the most important thing.

 

[glazed]

Genuine question, who are the "elite" managers? By the definition there's very few of them, and I would imagine the list would be Guardiola, Ancelotti, Klopp.... I genuinely can't think of any more out there that would be on the same level (I'm sure some would include Zidane). We aren't getting any of those, so we're then looking at either up and coming managers (Amorim, De Zerbi, Motta etc), or established managers that have proven ability but are not likely to join the elite.

Maybe that picture changes in a year or two, but I doubt it for some reason.

Frankenstein Squad is my new favorite term. Hopefully INEOS can sort that out instead of buying players mindlessly to sell merchandise and kits. That's the most important thing.

Smart fans are increasingly beginning to understand that the following success equation is untrue:

Shit loads of money + manager did well somewhere else = success

Worse, FFP and Glazernomics means shitloads of money is increasingly hard to generate anyway.

The actual new success equation is:

Large club + well organised club + cheating FFP = success

The coach is a significant part of that but he's more the icing on the cake that the flour and eggs.

 

[Raoul]

Smart fans are increasingly beginning to understand that the following success equation is untrue:

Shit loads of money + manager did well somewhere else = success

Worse, FFP and Glazernomics means shitloads of money is increasingly hard to generate anyway.

The actual new success equation is:

Large club + well organised club + cheating FFP = success

The coach is a significant part of that but he's more the icing on the cake that the flour and eggs.

The coach is far more than the icing on the cake imo. He's obviously the primary driver of what actually transpires on the pitch. A good one gets his players galvanized around a set of tactics and almost always gets them punching above their collective weight. All managers obviously benefit from the club having a strong executive team who are all on the same page about the club's long term vision, but the success itself isn't likely without a proper manager.

 

[glazed]

The coach is far more than the icing on the cake imo. He's obviously the primary driver of what actually transpires on the pitch.

I think that 's a very superficial take that's completely wrong. Put Pep in charge of Burnley they still won't win anything.

 

[mav_9me]

There ain't gonna be long term guys anymore. Better to accept it.

Yeah. Very fair.

Nice to a more European style if coaching/manager. Like real or Bayern or Barcelona etc...take the good years with the bad years as we go as opposed to keep dreaming about getting another Busby or Fergie.

 

[Raoul]

I think that 's a very superficial take that's completely wrong. Put Pep in charge of Burnley they still won't win anything.

Its unlikely he would, but he would improve them massively. Also, we have the example of Ranieri at Leicester who won the league with largely mid table players.

 

[glazed]

Its unlikely he would, but he would improve them massively. Also, we have the example of Ranieri at Leicester who won the league with largely mid table players.

Leicester had a pretty decent crop of players. What they also had was a very coherent squad that knew what it was trying to achieve. We constantly see small clubs like Brighton outperforming though that kind of top to bottom organisation, even when key players and managers move on. Ranieri was frankly an average manager who never did anything like it before or after. We overstate the manager's role because it's what we see in front of us and many of us lack analytical skills.

Put Pep in charge of Burnley he'd be asking players to do things they physically and mentally couldn't do while not being able to change the squad significantly. The whole thing would blow up in no time.

 

[gajender]

Leicester had a pretty decent crop of players. What they also had was a very coherent squad that knew what it was trying to achieve. We constantly see small clubs like Brighton outperforming though that kind of top to bottom organisation, even when key players and managers move on. Ranieri was frankly an average manager who never did anything like it before or after. We overstate the manager's role because it's what we see in front of us and many of us lack analytical skills.

Most tend to overstate role of everybody apart from actual players who do business on field which for me is the most critical part of the equation .

 

[Raoul]

Leicester had a pretty decent crop of players. What they also had was a very coherent squad that knew what it was trying to achieve. We constantly see small clubs like Brighton outperforming though that kind of top to bottom organisation, even when key players and managers move on. Ranieri was frankly an average manager who never did anything like it before or after. We overstate the manager's role because it's what we see in front of us and many of us lack analytical skills.

Consider the likelihood that City and Pool would've been as good as they were over the past 8-9 years with lesser managers. It wouldn't have happened. It was Pep's management that got them there. Ditto with Pool winning a league and CL under Klopp. Both shaped the team with players they needed in order to take their clubs to the next level and were backed with a good executive team that allowed them to implement their respective visions. Both clubs knew they weren't going to get there with the likes of Pellegrini or Brendan Rodgers and made the the appropriate changes to level up - and their subsequent success has proved they were right in doing so.

 

[Robbie Boy]

like comparing Cafu and John O’Shea because they’re both Champions league winning RB’s

Which would be absolutely ridiculous. Clearly O'Shea was at a different level to Cafu.

 

[Ish]

I like him l, I do, but he is a bit of a charlatan, not as good as he thinks he is, and has ego/public profile issues.. he loves the spotlight, and frequently has something to say to elicit attention (like Jose, ETH etc..) so no thanks.

Question: Why can't we, as a club, a huge, global corporation, commercially mega-successful, proper football club, approach things (like Newcastle, Liverpool, Villa, Brighton, Spurs etc..) sort these things out professionally, and efficiently ?

Our approach to Gary O'Neil for example was a mess. Why? ( and I rate Gary O'Neil highly, great young manager potential.. )

Did we approach Gary O’Neil?

 

[EdinburghDevil]

Whoever replaces EtH and whether Ashworth is officially in place or not, he'll definitely identify the candidates he thinks should be in the mix.

 

[Woziak]

1. The main reason he fell out with Boehly at Chelsea was because he didn't want to be involved in any transfers and wanted to focus on coaching so this point is provably false.

2. Yes and like It has been said, he has never really cared about recruitment. In all the teams he has managed he has tweaked his tactics to fit available players in the squad. What he does is recommend positions that need reinforcement latest example was he insisting Bayern get a very good DM before the season started.

3. False! He constantly falls out with upper management and not with his players. Even with the Egos at PSG he didn't fall out and given how terribly Poch managed to handle the egos in the squad, it makes Tuchel's time there quite impressive.

4. This is one line that people troth out as If there is any way to objectively measure how good a manager is with youth. Pep has been at Manchester City for 8 years, how many youth players has he developed in that time?? Similarly for Klopp. At the top of the football pyramid only the best of the best make it and any manager that managers ability to "develop youth" can not be objectively measured. What you can look into, is how well these managers can mould players to play in systems that elevate their qualities and in that regard Tuchel is one of the most tactically rigorous managers in the world today.

5. That's not his decision to make. If the INEOS crew have any sense, they will not put the fate of players like Sancho and Greenwood in his hand because again, he likes to focus on coaching and doesn't really care much for politics. Although I willing to bet Sancho would not last under his strict tactical setup

6. I don't even know why i bother with points 5, 6, 7 and 8 because they are all scenarios that you have made up in your head with no evidence at all and i don't know why.
Mainoo is the dream Tuchel deep midfielder. He has always made space for midfielders like (deep lying playemaker that picks up the ball from the defence and facilitates play) that in every team he has managed. I'm willing to bet he will do wonders for Mainoo's development.

9. If you bothered to spend any time reading the context behind his fallout with upper management at his previous clubs you'd be happy to have him hear because in all cases he has been proven right. He fell out with the Dortmund board because they sold many of their players without any form of adequate replacement. Fell out with Loenardo and NEK who were obsessed with buying super stars instead of sensible recruitment for proper squad building and Like already mentioned and proven over time, Boehly was a shitty CEO who is way over his head.

10. This is also a point you've made up with no evidence.

You will soon learn as a newbie to be more measured in your reply, he recently went on records as saying and I quote; “some of these players think they are better than they actually are!”

For reference newbie please use a capital ‘I’ when referring in the first person, if English is not your first language I apologise.

This link is one of many documents outlining Thomas Tuchel behaviour as head coach, no doubt you may say this journalist lacks moral integrity and most of the article was made up, some journalists do, on that we agree.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...ung-talent-annoyed-stars-public-comments.html

https://www.football.london/chelsea-fc/news/thomas-tuchel-gave-brutal-speech-28717555.amp

And most of this article states he was obsessed with PL players and had more power with recruitment than most Bayern coaches.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/thomas-tuchel-bayern-munich-manager-b2499986.html

 

[Woziak]

He fell out with PSG because Leonardo wanted superstar glamour signings like their version of Woodward whilst Tuchel wanted to bring in players to fit the system and was vindicated afterwards.

Fell out with Chelsea because Boehly fired all of the footballing structure like Cech and Marina then expected Tuchel to be a Sir Alex like figure that basically did everything from coaching, transfers and identifying incoming players whilst Tuchel just wanted to coach.

Not sure on Bayern but he has got a really lop sided and unbalanced squad so it’s likely that may be the reason he’s fallen out with Bayern, thing with Bayern is they’ve been unbalanced a while and only won the title last season because Dortmund massively bottled it but that was Nagelsmaan’s squad and Tuchel inherited it mate whilst this year Leverkusen are breaking records in order to win the league.

You do know that I’m a fan right, I was trying to give a balanced view and the pros greatly outweigh the cons, my point with youth in the same way he’s handled the talented youth at Bayern, he would soley not rely on Garnaucho, Mainoo and Hojlund to be starting every game and putting so much pressure on such young players.

He may start one, maybe two and have the others come from the bench. All three are super talented but sometimes they will have dips in form due to them playing too many minutes and having too much mental pressure piled on them, plus as their bodies develop they will suffer from more physical tiredness until they probably reach 22 or 23.

 

[Woziak]

From where are you getting that 10 pct! Sad to see so many still stuck in the delusion of a SAF reincarnation. The long term guy. It's like people are stuck in a time warp.

Yep tend to agree on that, in hindsight I’d say 2%!

 

[Red in STL]

You do know that I’m a fan right, I was trying to give a balanced view and the pros greatly outweigh the cons, my point with youth in the same way he’s handled the talented youth at Bayern, he would soley not rely on Garnaucho, Mainoo and Hojlund to be starting every game and putting so much pressure on such young players.

He may start one, maybe two and have the others come from the bench. All three are super talented but sometimes they will have dips in form due to them playing too many minutes and having too much mental pressure piled on them, plus as their bodies develop they will suffer from more physical tiredness until they probably reach 22 or 23.

To a large extent circumstances have dictated this, in Hojlund's case the alternative has been Rashford, in Garnacho's case that would have meant Amad who's almost as young and inexperienced, and Mainoo's replacerment would have been a combination of McT and Amrabat