Those doubting ETH - what is your contingency plan?

golden_blunder said:
You could argue that their manager has been lucky to come into a good squad, with great structure. He hasn’t needed to deal with years of bad management before him
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De Zerbi's success at Brighton has little to do with luck. It's the result of a club being run competently. They identified a manager that fit their squad and their vision and picked him. Not saying they can't get things wrong, of course they can, but it's a lot better than what we've done. You could say Brighton forge their own luck.

If we sack Ten Hag, and hire De Zerbi, he will fail miserably. Like Potter did.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
I always find these kind of questions funny… like it’s your job as a fan to have the same knowledge and decision making abilities of people who get paid millions to do so.

It’s like, ‘those who are criticising Weghorst, who would YOU sign?’

It’s pretty obvious isn’t it - a better striker, a capable CF who’s at least PL level.

And the ‘contingency plan’ IF Utd got rid of ETH would obviously be, get a better manager who signs better players.

Is ETH the best manager on Earth that Utd could get? Maybe, but maybe not. So if you were an ambitious owner, why would you settle if you thought you could do better?
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Except the issue with this is people become hindsight managers in the fact that it's somehow easy to get a great striker for 3 million.

Or the classic "play youth" when we really have none at youth level remotely available.

Criticism is perfectly fine, but some people on here go way over the top.
 
horsechoker said:
De Zerbi honours

Manager
Foggia

Shakhtar Donetsk


Ten Hag honours

Ajax[20]

Eredivisie: 2018–19, 2020–21, 2021–22
KNVB Cup: 2018–19, 2020–21
Johan Cruyff Shield: 2019
Manchester United

EFL Cup: 2022–23[27]
Individual

Rinus Michels Award: 2015–16,[40] 2018–19,[41] 2020–21[42]
Premier League Manager of the Month: September 2022,[43] February 2023[44]
Click to expand...

Bit harsh on De Zerbi, no? His beard also appeared in various 00's bands like Sum 41, P.O.D., Good Charlotte, etc.
 
kundalini said:
De Zerbi's Brighton look a far better coached team than Ten Hag's United. And yet they made a profit on transfers this season, lost a key player in the January transfer window, play teenagers.
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Played less games, don't have European tournament to reckon with and a more complete squad and scouting system in place. Very nice. You simply Must go and support them now. Afterall, they are the newest lower league team reaching up to the stars of the top 4.
 
Telsim said:
De Zerbi's success at Brighton has little to do with luck. It's the result of a club being run competently. They identified a manager that fit their squad and their vision and picked him. Not saying they can't get things wrong, of course they can, but it's a lot better than what we've done. You could say Brighton forge their own luck.

If we sack Ten Hag, and hire De Zerbi, he will fail miserably. Like Potter did.
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I tend to agree. I like De Zerbi as a coach but I think a lot of the problems that exist at United are inherent problems with how the club is run. It's a completely different proposition taking a job at a club where there's a good structure around the manager.
 
It's all well and good asking United fans on a football forum what our plan would be, as if us not having a plan means what we're currently doing is the best plan by default. Same goes for when someone asks "who would you sign then?" and when we don't have a viable alternative to the expensive flop we did actually sign, that means the expensive flop signing is justified.

We have dozens of backroom staff, as well as directors and a CEO who are paid enormous sums of money to have a plan A, plan B and a plan C. These people should know the best in class scouts and coaches to rectuit. These people should have an extensive list of suitable players who fit the style and philosophy the club wants to adopt. They should have viable alternatives to De Jong, to a mediocre winger from the Dutch league valued at £100m, and alternatives to expensive players like Sancho and Maguire. So that when the manager insists we sign these players, the scouts, sporting director and CEO can instead make an informed decision on how we can better spend that money on players who are a better fit, and players who are likely to have a mentality more suited to handling the pressure of playing for United. So far we've got it all wrong. But just because Joe bloggs who works in accounting and spends his free time posting on redcafe doesn't have a better plan, doesn't mean there aren't far better ways of running the club than the way we have been and the way we continue to.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
De Zerbi is a replaceable cog in a well-run machine, just as Potter was before him.
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Tyrion said:
Hasnt he only had about 25 league games at Brighton?
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IRELANDUNITED said:
Yeah sure, let’s go for the Brighton flavour of the month, that worked out so well for Chelsea.
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Rockets Redglare said:
Based on 6 months at Brighton?
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I agree with what you are all saying. Perhaps it also says a lot about how few genuine candidates I feel are out there if we were to replace ten Hag. Therefore I'm pretty much in agreement with the op also. I like what De Zerbi is doing a Brighton. I also liked the job that Potter did there. They are obviously a well run club and have a great scouting network. Though just to play devil's advocate for a second, is it not possible for a club to excell at those things and have a talented coach?

My view is that I want ten Hag to stay. He deserves another season. I only hope that this summer isn't scuppered by the ownership situation and that the recruitment team do their job as opposed to us relying on a database that resides in ten Hag's head.
 
kundalini said:
De Zerbi's Brighton look a far better coached team than Ten Hag's United. And yet they made a profit on transfers this season, lost a key player in the January transfer window, play teenagers.
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Because they can afford to. Play teenagers at United and the occasion will overcome them. Only the best of the best come through at United. You'll get posters on here slating players that 'simply aren't ready'. Buy unknowns and you'll get fans slating united for buying not ready made players able to make the step up. Ease them in gently and you'll get fans saying that they aren't good enough. Sell them. (Amad/Pellistri). Brighton also buy a ton of shite players which don't make up for the good ones they get.

Fact of the matter is, on this forum, The grass is always greener. We suffer from huge envy on this forum and it's disgusting.

Until we get involved in that, realise it's not what it's cracked up to be and then we want the next best thing and flavour of the month (De Zerbi, before that it was Potter). Rinse and repeat.
 
Remember the geese said:
I agree with what you are all saying. Perhaps it also says a lot about how few genuine candidates I feel are out there if we were to replace ten Hag. Therefore I'm pretty much in agreement with the op also. I like what De Zerbi is doing a Brighton. I also liked the job that Potter did there. They are obviously a well run club and have a great scouting network. Though just to play devil's advocate for a second, is it not possible for a club to excell at those things and have a talented coach?

My view is that I want ten Hag to stay. He deserves another season. I only hope that this summer isn't scuppered by the ownership situation and that the recruitment team do their job as opposed to us relying on a database that resides in ten Hag's head.
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McKenna and Carrick say hi!

Yet 90% of this forum wanted them out.

Funny how life works.
 
horsechoker said:
De Zerbi honours

Manager
Foggia

Shakhtar Donetsk


Ten Hag honours

Ajax[20]

Eredivisie: 2018–19, 2020–21, 2021–22
KNVB Cup: 2018–19, 2020–21
Johan Cruyff Shield: 2019
Manchester United

EFL Cup: 2022–23[27]
Individual

Rinus Michels Award: 2015–16,[40] 2018–19,[41] 2020–21[42]
Premier League Manager of the Month: September 2022,[43] February 2023[44]
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To be fair, Frank de Boer has won 4 times that league with Ajax as manager (more than EtH) and has also won 2 Rinus Michel awards.

Would you be fan of getting him as United manager and even more importantly, continuing with him if we couldn’t get 4th in seasons where Chelsea and Liverpool are historically shit?
 
Siorac said:
What we need is a complete overhaul of recruitment. We have needed that for years but based on last summer's signings we still haven't done it. Do we even have scouts? Is there anyone at the club to supply a list of potential signings to the manager? Because it sure as hell looks like the manager points at a player and then we try to get that player and that's about it.

If we keep doing that, then yeah, Ten Hag will fail, his replacement will fail, and his replacement's replacement will fail. If we sign multiple players from the Eredivisie again this summer then next season is pretty much pointless. We might as well sack Ten Hag. Or give him a lifelong contract. It doesn't matter either way. The manager should have a vision, an overarching concept of our playing style and the club should supply him with potential targets that fit the profile.
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This is an obvious and simple, but on the other hand, absolutely great post.

Somehow, Man United hierarchy are the only people on Earth who have yet to understand this.
 
Red Shorts said:
With the squad he has (which, let's be honest, is threadbare), we are:

Carabao cup winners
FA cup finalists
Europa league QFinalists ( and may have got through were it not to rotten luck at home)
Well in contention for 4th

He's done a cracking job in his debut season where he had to face a WC in winter amongst other challenges. He's staying and doesn't deserve being criticized so heavily.
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Absolutely this.
 
Bring Ole back ? That's what I saw in that thread yesterday
 
Qatar in then Pep in. £700m spending spree. People want all the success back RIGHT NOW.
 
Telsim said:
De Zerbi's success at Brighton has little to do with luck. It's the result of a club being run competently. They identified a manager that fit their squad and their vision and picked him. Not saying they can't get things wrong, of course they can, but it's a lot better than what we've done. You could say Brighton forge their own luck.

If we sack Ten Hag, and hire De Zerbi, he will fail miserably. Like Potter did.
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In essence you’re agreeing with me. My point is that De Zerbi is lucky they he walked into a good squad, already well coached and a great structure. If he walked into United, 6 months later we’d see the “should he be sacked?” Thread
 
AndySmith1990 said:
It's all well and good asking United fans on a football forum what our plan would be, as if us not having a plan means what we're currently doing is the best plan by default. Same goes for when someone asks "who would you sign then?" and when we don't have a viable alternative to the expensive flop we did actually sign, that means the expensive flop signing is justified.

We have dozens of backroom staff, as well as directors and a CEO who are paid enormous sums of money to have a plan A, plan B and a plan C. These people should know the best in class scouts and coaches to rectuit. These people should have an extensive list of suitable players who fit the style and philosophy the club wants to adopt. They should have viable alternatives to De Jong, to a mediocre winger from the Dutch league valued at £100m, and alternatives to expensive players like Sancho and Maguire. So that when the manager insists we sign these players, the scouts, sporting director and CEO can instead make an informed decision on how we can better spend that money on players who are a better fit, and players who are likely to have a mentality more suited to handling the pressure of playing for United. So far we've got it all wrong. But just because Joe bloggs who works in accounting and spends his free time posting on redcafe doesn't have a better plan, doesn't mean there aren't far better ways of running the club than the way we have been and the way we continue to.
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But that's it, it's the hierarchy. People would have ETH out if we lose out on top 4 when he's just had a season to assess and ready to roll up his sleeves and gut the squad (I refuse to believe he doesn't want to - though the de Gea quotes are concerning if taken at face value).
 
I cant believe what I am reading from some fans.

At the start of the season someone said you would finish in two cup finals, win one of them and finish top 4 you would have snapped their hand off. He is on course to do just that. We are still favourites to finish top 4.

We have played a crazy amount of games, players are obviously fatigued but people forget we have played that many games because of how successful ETH has been. He is missing he two staring centre backs which has resulted in a major dip in form, not having Luke Shaw at LB has also added to putting the balance of the side off.

I think he has done great since coming in and will go from strength to strength if he is backed in the next couple of transfer windows. We need a turnover of players but I have no doubt he knows who needs to go but for a first season you couldn't of asked for more.

The last few results have blinkered people into thinking ETH hasn't done a great job with a squad that still isn't in his mould. People easily forget how well he dealt with the Ronaldo situation and all he all the background noise from club sale etc...

For me he has been a breath of fresh air and just what we need going forward.
 
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Johnbouche said:
I cant believe what I am reading from some fans.

At the start of the season someone said you would finish in two cup finals, win one of them and finish top 4 you would have snapped their hand off. He is on course to do just that. We are still favourites to finish top 4.

We have played a crazy amount of games, players are obviously fatigued but people forget we have played that many games because of how successful ETH has been. He is missing he two staring centre backs which has resulted in a major dip in form, not having Luke Shaw at LB has also added to putting the balance of the side off.

I think he has done great since coming in and will go from strength to strength if he is backed in the next couple of transfer windows. We need a turnover of players but I have no doubt he knows who needs to go but for a first season you couldn't of asked for more.

The last few results have blinkered people into thinking ETH hasn't done a great job with a squad that still isn't in his mould. People easily forget how well he dealt with the Ronaldo situation and all he all the background noise from club sale etc...

For me he has been a breath of fresh air and just what we need going forward.
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I don’t want EtH going anywhere but the ‘at the beginning to f the season argument is the most reductive thing I read on here.

If we simply go by what people predict in July why bother playing the games? I can only speak personally but I’m fecking pissed we lost to Sevilla, if you’d have said Europa quarters at the beginning of the season I’d have probably just gone alright then but in the moment losing how we lost is disappointing.

EtH deserves to manage this team without the absolute bottle jobs that are littered throughout the squad, that doesn’t mean he hasn’t had some issues himself though.
 
The argument that it’s the players is a lazy one IMO. When the team was playing well, it was the manager getting the best out of them. Now the team is playing poorly it’s the players downing tools or acting like cowards. The manager picks the team and in the case he specifically handpicked a few of the under-performers.

Regardless, he should be retained b/c he’s done well enough, however you don’t keep a failing manager just because you don’t have a replacement lined up.It just prolongs the rot


Siorac said:
What we need is a complete overhaul of recruitment. We have needed that for years but based on last summer's signings we still haven't done it.
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This is the main issue.
 
Contingency plan must always be to give it giggsy until the end of the season.

Gives you time to get Nagelsmann in to start his 2-2-6 revolution which failed at Bayern as they weren’t prepared for his attacking moves.
 
I'm absolutely pro-ETH and I want him to be able to stay and show everyone that he's a proper manager when he has a team at his disposal that can play at a high technical level and knows how to play well against pressure. A lot of fans who criticize him are obviously right to do so. He is still new to this level and has shown plenty of mistakes. There are a lot of people on this forum who at this very moment still post about how Erik is a miracle worker, a magician etc etc. and I feel that's a bit overexaggerated as well. A different sound is needed as well.

That said he told us at the start of the season that it's a process. And almost everybody agreed that the absolute disgrace of a team that finished 6th was not going to be turned around in just one season. The form the team is in now is not good but the game against West Ham yesterday was sealed by that De Gea error. We had a solid amount of chances in the first half against a team that didn't want to bite at all. Second half was horrendous but this team does not have or at least shown the ability to pick apart teams sitting back. That's because we don't have the personnel for that. We also miss our starting CB pairing who play faster than let's say Lindelof who likes to keep the ball in his feet for a solid 5 seconds allowing West Ham to get back into position. Since the moment they both got injured we played our worst football of the season IMO. I find it difficult myself to blame ETH for that.

Opinions on this can differ, some feel ETH needs to set up differently. Maybe that is true as well, but he's stubborn. That can be good or bad. I find most of the people who criticize Ten Hag on the Caf have good arguments. Sacking him would be unrealistic and way too premature though. I think it's very unreasonable to not give a manager more time after you saddle him up with Martial, who has been seen as a pain in the butt to most here at the Caf for years and a 37 y/o Cristiano who was known for holding the team back football wise despite his goals. They also didn't allow him to buy a striker, Gakpo went to L'pool and we had to settle with a loan deal.

Is he the real deal? Or is he another manager that can't live up to the high expectations at United? We can't say that yet. But I myself am highly convinced the likes of De Zerbi, Enrique, Poch etc. wouldn't thrive with this team. Yes ETH has spent €230m or so but United are always forced to pay a premium. It's a high number but it was never enough to properly overhaul this team.
 
The contingency is to let him get a decent squad. We have played with no CF all season. Shock we can’t score goals because of it.

We are trying to play out from the back with a goalkeeper who can’t use his feet. Since injuries to our best CBs we are now back to two players who have made consistent errors for 5 years and should have been sold years ago. Ten Hag needs to be ruthless with De Gea. His contract should not be renewed and he should risk getting a goalie who can play out from the back even if this means his shot stopping reactions are worse than De Gea. Just like Pep did with Hart. Granted Bravo didn’t worked out for City but it started the process of changing the style of football for the season to come.

This will be an interesting transfer window. The ownership and FFP issues means there is a lack of funds. Ultimately we need a world class CF which could easily take our entire budget. We also need a new goalie, CM and potentially a RB and backup CB. There is no way we are getting 5 players in unless the Qataris buy the club.

Ultimately the limitations of this squad aren’t down to Ten Hag. Let’s just hope he’s ruthless enough to get rid of some of the squad, unlike previous seasons. The club needs to learn when to write off a loss.
 
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DutchSerb said:
I'm absolutely pro-ETH and I want him to be able to stay and show everyone that he's a proper manager when he has a team at his disposal that can play at a high technical level and knows how to play well against pressure. A lot of fans who criticize him are obviously right to do so. He is still new to this level and has shown plenty of mistakes. There are a lot of people on this forum who at this very moment still post about how Erik is a miracle worker, a magician etc etc. and I feel that's a bit overexaggerated as well. A different sound is needed as well.

That said he told us at the start of the season that it's a process. And almost everybody agreed that the absolute disgrace of a team that finished 6th was not going to be turned around in just one season. The form the team is in now is not good but the game against West Ham yesterday was sealed by that De Gea error. We had a solid amount of chances in the first half against a team that didn't want to bite at all. Second half was horrendous but this team does not have or at least shown the ability to pick apart teams sitting back. That's because we don't have the personnel for that. We also miss our starting CB pairing who play faster than let's say Lindelof who likes to keep the ball in his feet for a solid 5 seconds allowing West Ham to get back into position. Since the moment they both got injured we played our worst football of the season IMO. I find it difficult myself to blame ETH for that.

Opinions on this can differ, some feel ETH needs to set up differently. Maybe that is true as well, but he's stubborn. That can be good or bad. I find most of the people who criticize Ten Hag on the Caf have good arguments. Sacking him would be unrealistic and way too premature though. I think it's very unreasonable to not give a manager more time after you saddle him up with Martial, who has been seen as a pain in the butt to most here at the Caf for years and a 37 y/o Cristiano who was known for holding the team back football wise despite his goals. They also didn't allow him to buy a striker, Gakpo went to L'pool and we had to settle with a loan deal.

Is he the real deal? Or is he another manager that can't live up to the high expectations at United? We can't say that yet. But I myself am highly convinced the likes of De Zerbi, Enrique, Poch etc. wouldn't thrive with this team. Yes ETH has spent €230m or so but United are always forced to pay a premium. It's a high number but it was never enough to properly overhaul this team.
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I think this is a good post (although I differ in the conclusion that he shouldn’t be sacked if he doesn’t get fourth). However the premium part is BS IMO. We pay premium because we choose to do so by not having alternatives to the players we want to sign. No one forced to pay us 100m euros or whatever we paid to Antony and if we truly think that there was no better player for that amount of money we should close this club.
 
AndySmith1990 said:
It's all well and good asking United fans on a football forum what our plan would be, as if us not having a plan means what we're currently doing is the best plan by default. Same goes for when someone asks "who would you sign then?" and when we don't have a viable alternative to the expensive flop we did actually sign, that means the expensive flop signing is justified.

We have dozens of backroom staff, as well as directors and a CEO who are paid enormous sums of money to have a plan A, plan B and a plan C. These people should know the best in class scouts and coaches to rectuit. These people should have an extensive list of suitable players who fit the style and philosophy the club wants to adopt. They should have viable alternatives to De Jong, to a mediocre winger from the Dutch league valued at £100m, and alternatives to expensive players like Sancho and Maguire. So that when the manager insists we sign these players, the scouts, sporting director and CEO can instead make an informed decision on how we can better spend that money on players who are a better fit, and players who are likely to have a mentality more suited to handling the pressure of playing for United. So far we've got it all wrong. But just because Joe bloggs who works in accounting and spends his free time posting on redcafe doesn't have a better plan, doesn't mean there aren't far better ways of running the club than the way we have been and the way we continue to.
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By the same reasoning, the fans who want ETH sacked don’t actually have a clue, and it might not be the best plan, right?

Can’t have it both ways.
 
Revan said:
I think this is a good post (although I differ in the conclusion that he shouldn’t be sacked if he doesn’t get fourth). However the premium part is BS IMO. We pay premium because we choose to do so by not having alternatives to the players we want to sign. No one forced to pay us 100m euros or whatever we paid to Antony and if we truly think that there was no better player for that amount of money we should close this club.
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They robbed us for sure. Let me rephrase it by saying upper management/directors are so incompetent that we are always forced to pay premium because nobody read Haggling for Dummies. Or maybe you can blame ETH, don't know. I still have faith Antony can be a good football player though, but yeah we got fleeced on that one.
 
Remember the geese said:
I don't want him gone, but if we were going to replace him with someone I'd be looking at De Zerbi.
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Just another to file alongside Potter, Nuno Santo, etc, a solid mid to high table team manager with passion who seems to do alright at that level but then goes to a big club and can't hack it. He's also a proper little gobshite so it's a hard no from me. Can't stand the little cnut.
 
AndySmith1990 said:
It's all well and good asking United fans on a football forum what our plan would be, as if us not having a plan means what we're currently doing is the best plan by default. Same goes for when someone asks "who would you sign then?" and when we don't have a viable alternative to the expensive flop we did actually sign, that means the expensive flop signing is justified.

We have dozens of backroom staff, as well as directors and a CEO who are paid enormous sums of money to have a plan A, plan B and a plan C. These people should know the best in class scouts and coaches to rectuit. These people should have an extensive list of suitable players who fit the style and philosophy the club wants to adopt. They should have viable alternatives to De Jong, to a mediocre winger from the Dutch league valued at £100m, and alternatives to expensive players like Sancho and Maguire. So that when the manager insists we sign these players, the scouts, sporting director and CEO can instead make an informed decision on how we can better spend that money on players who are a better fit, and players who are likely to have a mentality more suited to handling the pressure of playing for United. So far we've got it all wrong. But just because Joe bloggs who works in accounting and spends his free time posting on redcafe doesn't have a better plan, doesn't mean there aren't far better ways of running the club than the way we have been and the way we continue to.
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Seconded.
 
Andersonson said:
We need a manager who can adapt to games and uses his tactical knowledge to adjust. Also, we need a manager who knows what to buy. Antony has been a disaster, emergency backup Wout as played way too much.

When your players are injured and players like Maguire needs to start, you adjust tactics, you don't force them to play our from the back and lose points - over and over again
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Yeah the Antony decision is the one which really rattled me and ultimately is the reason we were shopping in bargain bins
 
Oranges038 said:
Pretty much it.

Too many in this squad who've never been good enough, but yet they are still here some of them have seen off 3 or 4 managers at this stage, yet some how another manager could do more or better.... the vast majority of the players just aren't good enough to compete for leagues and top trophies.

He needs to be given the time and resources to clear the decks and bring in the players that suit his style.
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Yeah but right now there is little evidence those leeches will give him the necessary resources to actually clear the decks
 
Remember the geese said:
I don't want him gone, but if we were going to replace him with someone I'd be looking at De Zerbi.
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No doubt you’d be saying Potter if he was still there, and look how that turned out at Chelsea.

Anyone else mentioning De Zerbi would have likely been saying we should have gone for Ranieri after winning the PL with Leicester.

Talk about over simplifying managerial appointments.
 
Big Andy said:
Just another to file alongside Potter, Nuno Santo, etc, a solid mid to high table team manager with passion who seems to do alright at that level but then goes to a big club and can't hack it. He's also a proper little gobshite so it's a hard no from me. Can't stand the little cnut.
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I nearly wrote that exact thing on my post as well. I absolutely can’t stand him, he’s just below Klopp and Arteta as the most punchable manager in the league.
 
AndySmith1990 said:
It's all well and good asking United fans on a football forum what our plan would be, as if us not having a plan means what we're currently doing is the best plan by default. Same goes for when someone asks "who would you sign then?" and when we don't have a viable alternative to the expensive flop we did actually sign, that means the expensive flop signing is justified.
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To you and everyone else making this point: if fans can't be expected to have the knowledge/expertise to know who to sign instead, why can they be expected to have a reliable judgement on when the current manager is performing poorly (in relation to league, squad, and club dynamics) and should be sacked? You can't pick and choose like that.
Revan said:
To be fair, Frank de Boer has won 4 times that league with Ajax as manager (more than EtH) and has also won 2 Rinus Michel awards.
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To be properly fair though, De Zerbi and (last season) Ten Hag were seen as attractive because they were getting results while playing a great style of football. De Boer never had the latter, and was in fact criticized in the Netherlands and by Ajax fans even as he was winning all those titles - and no-one suggested he would be a great choice for an international top club.
 
Sacking ETH now would be insanely stupid. Anyone who thinks we should do so doesn't really understand anything. Is anyone that dense? Surely not.

That said he has made some choices that seem unwise. Whether they were mistakes or not is too soon to say.
 
frostbite said:
Do you mean that ETH with last year's squad would do no better than Ole or Rangnick?
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Well so far he hasn't had much more success than Ole in his first full season and part of that is because he's been forced to rely on the same gowls time and time again.
 
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