Exactly. There's always a well run club who make their managers look good. Rodgers was one at Swansea, Poch at Southampton, Potter at Brighton. When they show up and don't immediately improve things then "the jobs too big for them".
Those doubting ETH - what is your contingency plan?
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Exactly. There's always a well run club who make their managers look good. Rodgers was one at Swansea, Poch at Southampton, Potter at Brighton. When they show up and don't immediately improve things then "the jobs too big for them".
He's done fantastic and I've enjoyed them for two seasons now, they are a well run club and play great football. But what you said is absolutely the point and they don't play with the expectations which playing for United brings (even when we consistently fail to meet those expectations).
That's a nice narrative you've made there. We've not done an overhaul since LVG's and Woodward's scattergun approach. Everything that's happened post SAF is on the club and its complete lack of a clear footballing vision. Not any manager. With ETH we know he's a good manager and that he plays progressive football. He came in at our lowest ebb and managed to turn it around somewhat. But he's not a miracle worker and he's got limitations like everyone, which is also the fundamental reason why you have to have a proper structure in place. Pep has that structure. It's not a one man show with some clueless moneybags looking at social media interactions.
What's been repeated ad infinitum is the lack of long-term planning and being taken advantage of in the market.
I'm not going to say that all the signings are a raging success, and yes we go overboard in our hype as well as our criticism, but Martinez has quite obviously been a good player for us and fundamental to our build up play. Casemiro prior to the 2nd suspension was outstanding. Malacia is work in progress and it's too early to tell. Not a huge outlay either, so if he's not up to it, we'll likely break even. Antony is the biggest question mark given the price (same as Sancho the year before, under another manager, but overseen by the same ownership and people).
Ah the criticism is fine but....line has begun
I don't see doubt as black and white, if people don't have more doubts now than 6 months ago they're lying to themselves. It's only a question of grace and then conditions.
He should get another full season for me unless we do a Chelsea. After that period he'll be judged on any doubts still lingering.
Can you not be happy with him even if you have some doubts? That's my position anyway. I used to criticise SAF, even though I knew we'd never get a better manager and I of course didn't want one. That should always be acceptable. I think we should have done better in Europe under SAF, and yet he was as good as you can hope for. ETH has made mistakes like fielding his best XI when he doesn't need to, played Varane when he'd already picked up an injury, gone with everything on all fronts and now we're running on empty. I believe we'd be looking a sure bet for third if we'd have prioritised the league and been relatively lucky with injuries.
That line by the way was criticism is fine, but those who want him out if we're out of the CL, whom do you want. I think that's a perfectly reasonable question to ask.
This is for me too. I've stopped thinking that a manager would fix everything for quite some time now, as many should. If you raise your concerns, you are a supporter of the previous manager. If you defend a manager, you would be told that you are blind and we should not give that manager time and money.Ah the criticism is fine but....line has begun
I don't see doubt as black and white, if people don't have more doubts now than 6 months ago they're lying to themselves. It's only a question of grace and then conditions.
He should get another full season for me unless we do a Chelsea. After that period he'll be judged on any doubts still lingering.
It is going in circles anyway. So until a manager is able to win some major titles, I will try to reserve a bit unless he does some things that I don't understand which will happen a few times in a long season. It does not mean that I know more than him, though.
So by your logic we shouldn’t have sacked any of our previous managers?
That's not my logic. My thinking is that sacking a manager with 1 season is stupid.
I think we should have never made OGS permanent, sacked Jose sooner and never appointed Moyes.
It's hilarious when some fans point at other managers in the PL and say 'there look, they are a much better coached side' totally ignoring the utter dross that is the Utd squad. Most of our players would struggle to get into the current top 10 PL sides, and history shows us players leaving Utd almost invariably end up at lower level teams. Technical ability, mental strength, physicality, adaptability....the list is endless where our players are lacking in so many facets that make a top team. Players like De Gea, Martial, Fred just some up the issues with our team where they would have been discarded by almost all managers wanting to achieve something in the PL...other than top 4! But that's what we have become...a moments team with moments players that have no fortitude for a PL season.
My plan to apply for Duke of Edinburgh award is so I get to look cool. MY skillset includes: posting on RedCofe blindfolded, learned basic sociology at school, able to drink 1 liter of cola in one chug.
Honestly, I don't know where to begin.
But two things stick with me from before the season started that Ajax fans on here said about him and it doesn't help the doubts as the season has unfolded.
1. He's stubborn
He'll play his first XI over and over and over and wear them out and he'll stick to his ideas and never stop despite them never working (we're completely worn out regardless of the lack of squad depth and he keeps playing Weghorst as a #10 for instance)
2. He doesn't play youth
Now Garnacho is a bit like Januzaj in Moyes' season, he's played too well not to break through and play but aside from that, with the lack of rotation and stubbornness, I don't see any other youth products getting a chance.
If we can't buy our way to a great squad then we're gonna have to develop but how can we develop if we get the same XI each week?
We're completely flogged this season and ETH's habit of being completely unable to make a sub, make a change, do anything in game to help isn't helping.
I can only imagine just how embarrassing the defeat against City in the cup final is going to be. It's not at Old Trafford, it's against one of the top teams, it's against City who are in peak form and it's right at the end of a long gruelling season. We're gonna get fecking hammered.
He got so much credit for some of the play we've seen this year and rightfully so and then winning the League Cup certainly helped, as did beating Barca and playing so well but ever since then it's like both he and the squad have taken the season off and that's immensely worrying. I get that this bunch of players are completely pathetic mentally but ETH hasn't exactly helped with the way he's set them up and when we lose, we lose big and we lose bad. tumescent, embarrassing performances that only serve to make us worse in the next game and it doesn't feel like it'll be long before teams just start going for us at OT and then we've got nothing left.
That's all before considering a contingency. There isn't anyone out there that I see as a magician, able to mould this squad into something better than it is and until we're sold, the structure of the club will forever get in the way.
But two things stick with me from before the season started that Ajax fans on here said about him and it doesn't help the doubts as the season has unfolded.
1. He's stubborn
He'll play his first XI over and over and over and wear them out and he'll stick to his ideas and never stop despite them never working (we're completely worn out regardless of the lack of squad depth and he keeps playing Weghorst as a #10 for instance)
2. He doesn't play youth
Now Garnacho is a bit like Januzaj in Moyes' season, he's played too well not to break through and play but aside from that, with the lack of rotation and stubbornness, I don't see any other youth products getting a chance.
If we can't buy our way to a great squad then we're gonna have to develop but how can we develop if we get the same XI each week?
We're completely flogged this season and ETH's habit of being completely unable to make a sub, make a change, do anything in game to help isn't helping.
I can only imagine just how embarrassing the defeat against City in the cup final is going to be. It's not at Old Trafford, it's against one of the top teams, it's against City who are in peak form and it's right at the end of a long gruelling season. We're gonna get fecking hammered.
He got so much credit for some of the play we've seen this year and rightfully so and then winning the League Cup certainly helped, as did beating Barca and playing so well but ever since then it's like both he and the squad have taken the season off and that's immensely worrying. I get that this bunch of players are completely pathetic mentally but ETH hasn't exactly helped with the way he's set them up and when we lose, we lose big and we lose bad. tumescent, embarrassing performances that only serve to make us worse in the next game and it doesn't feel like it'll be long before teams just start going for us at OT and then we've got nothing left.
That's all before considering a contingency. There isn't anyone out there that I see as a magician, able to mould this squad into something better than it is and until we're sold, the structure of the club will forever get in the way.
Replace the first three words with 'Ten Hag's Ajax' and your post is still completely true - with the added bonus that Ajax was doing poorly before Ten Hag joined (meaning that their style under him was implemented completely by himself) and that he maintained a high level for multiple seasons. Neither is true for De Zerbi at Brighton so far.
I don't mean to say that De Zerbi's accomplishments are meaningless or that Ten Hag is beyond reproach; but I think the De Zerbi argument is simplistic and ignores the exact reason why Ten Hag was United's top candidate this time last year.
All that may be true, but the question was: who would be doing better?
This.
Why are you both dodging the question? I mean, I know why, but just answer the question. This isn’t a moaning thread.
Who would you bring in as the new manager?
This is the first time I've had real doubts about ETH, because he isn't just getting unlucky. There are real decisions he's making that are impacting these results (Weghorst, De Gea) that are inexcusable. I also think you are seeing a bit of the effects that come from never rotating your squad in lesser games. It's nice to say "we are United, we should be winning everything" but in reality it's a stupid naive way to approach squad management when you KNOW how drastic the drop off is between your first choice XI and the bench options. We have been overran quite a bit recently in ways that weren't happening a few months ago, and often in the second half. That's not a coincidence.
Even if we squeak top 4 (I think we will), if he signs De Gea to a new deal and then come September we get tonked by Arsenal in a game that we can't control for shit because our keeper is unable to play any sort of decent pass under pressure, then his head should absolutely roll. Because that's the type of obvious decision that should made to move on even if we don't get our "Allisson" level keeper of the future this summer.
If we hadn’t gone all the way in the League Cup, got to the FA cup final and made the EL semis then I think we’d have won more league games.
We are suffering from competing on too many fronts during a unique season with the World Cup break. West Ham had 8 days between games while we played Thursday. It’s a big advantage and one we’ve faced over and over again at the exact time we’ve had our biggest injury problems.
We get this week off and if the players can’t get themselves sorted for next weeks game then let’s ask some serious questions.
We’ve seen some glimpses of what this team can do with performances against City and Barca but it’s clear that somethings not quite right at then moment.
We are suffering from competing on too many fronts during a unique season with the World Cup break. West Ham had 8 days between games while we played Thursday. It’s a big advantage and one we’ve faced over and over again at the exact time we’ve had our biggest injury problems.
We get this week off and if the players can’t get themselves sorted for next weeks game then let’s ask some serious questions.
We’ve seen some glimpses of what this team can do with performances against City and Barca but it’s clear that somethings not quite right at then moment.
1. This is true but rotation has suffered because of injuries too.
2. Have we really needed to use youth? Outside of Pellistri who are we talking about? We’ve generally been able to field senior players so why would you just randomly throw in a youth team player.
3. The cup final comes after our schedule has eased. If we still had Europa semis I think we’d be in big trouble but we should actually be more rested than City given they have the semis of the CL to come.
So a lot of people are saying De Zerbi is the answer. A manager who's crowning achievement is two eight place finishes with Sassuolo.
People need to start appreciating that a manager doesn't perform in isolation. Brighton are already well known for having a great operation behind the scenes. We don't. Make de Zerbi our manager and see how he handles managing a squad made from jigsaw puzzles that don't fit.
Goes without saying that de Zerbi took over from Potter, and we know what happened when he moved to a bigger club with a shite structure after being branded the next great thing in football...
Edit: ffs pidgy read through the thread next time and see if anyone else has made the same points as you.
People need to start appreciating that a manager doesn't perform in isolation. Brighton are already well known for having a great operation behind the scenes. We don't. Make de Zerbi our manager and see how he handles managing a squad made from jigsaw puzzles that don't fit.
Goes without saying that de Zerbi took over from Potter, and we know what happened when he moved to a bigger club with a shite structure after being branded the next great thing in football...
Edit: ffs pidgy read through the thread next time and see if anyone else has made the same points as you.
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Pretty much it.
Too many in this squad who've never been good enough, but yet they are still here some of them have seen off 3 or 4 managers at this stage, yet some how another manager could do more or better.... the vast majority of the players just aren't good enough to compete for leagues and top trophies.
He needs to be given the time and resources to clear the decks and bring in the players that suit his style.
Ten Hag has done well but for god's sake don't let him have full say in players we are buying. Antony is a waste of space. Weghorst is not fit to wear the jersey also.
De Zerbi honours
Ten Hag honours
Ten Hag honours
Ajax[20]
Eredivisie: 2018–19, 2020–21, 2021–22
KNVB Cup: 2018–19, 2020–21
Johan Cruyff Shield: 2019
Manchester United
EFL Cup: 2022–23[27]
Individual
Rinus Michels Award: 2015–16,[40] 2018–19,[41] 2020–21[42]
Premier League Manager of the Month: September 2022,[43] February 2023[44]
Eredivisie: 2018–19, 2020–21, 2021–22
KNVB Cup: 2018–19, 2020–21
Johan Cruyff Shield: 2019
Manchester United
EFL Cup: 2022–23[27]
Individual
Rinus Michels Award: 2015–16,[40] 2018–19,[41] 2020–21[42]
Premier League Manager of the Month: September 2022,[43] February 2023[44]
Lampard
What we need is a complete overhaul of recruitment. We have needed that for years but based on last summer's signings we still haven't done it. Do we even have scouts? Is there anyone at the club to supply a list of potential signings to the manager? Because it sure as hell looks like the manager points at a player and then we try to get that player and that's about it.
If we keep doing that, then yeah, Ten Hag will fail, his replacement will fail, and his replacement's replacement will fail. If we sign multiple players from the Eredivisie again this summer then next season is pretty much pointless. We might as well sack Ten Hag. Or give him a lifelong contract. It doesn't matter either way. The manager should have a vision, an overarching concept of our playing style and the club should supply him with potential targets that fit the profile.
If we keep doing that, then yeah, Ten Hag will fail, his replacement will fail, and his replacement's replacement will fail. If we sign multiple players from the Eredivisie again this summer then next season is pretty much pointless. We might as well sack Ten Hag. Or give him a lifelong contract. It doesn't matter either way. The manager should have a vision, an overarching concept of our playing style and the club should supply him with potential targets that fit the profile.
I guarantee that if we were to fire Ten Hag and hire any other available manager, the same issues we're seeing now would persist.
This isn't to say Ten Hag is beyond criticism, but many of the issues we're seeing now originate from higher up the ladder.
This isn't to say Ten Hag is beyond criticism, but many of the issues we're seeing now originate from higher up the ladder.
I was quite impressed by West Ham’s manager yesterday.
Nail on head
I feel like this as well.
The real problem needs to get solved, however as long as it isn't, if this persists, in due time the club must start looking at potential managers who could replace Erik ten Hag.
Which wouldn't be an ideal solution, but at best, the best solution at the time. Which just goes to speak of the shambles this club is in.
He should be replaced if he gives Liverpool our 4th place spot, simple as that.
Although I really hope he holds 4th and we build from here.
Yeah sure, let’s go for the Brighton flavour of the month, that worked out so well for Chelsea.
Nail on the head. That's a big if and the answer is no. Glazers operate on pay just enough to get top 4.
I think the injury crisis + the amount of games Utd have played this season is really starting to shine through.
When you factor in that Bruno has played more games than Brighton/West Ham have played in total.. it's an issue.
Playing at times 14-15 more games than some teams with mostly the same players is going to cause major issues at the end of a season, add in some dreadful ref performances, opposing team getting double the amount of rest. It honestly isn't that surprising.
Then you add in that this club has been ran utterly appallingly for a long time now and that has major consequences. Just look at Chelsea ffs.
I do think people need to give their fecking heads a wobble and realise even Guardiola wouldn't be much of an improvement with this set of players.
Now if De Gea remains number 1 next season and Utd continue to get smashed and the performances don't improve then those calling for his head definetly have more of a leg to stand on but even if he is well supported this season in the transfer market, I don't think Utd have much of a chance yet against City. They've had much longer to perfect their strategy. While Utd have been a shit show for almost a decade now.
When you factor in that Bruno has played more games than Brighton/West Ham have played in total.. it's an issue.
Playing at times 14-15 more games than some teams with mostly the same players is going to cause major issues at the end of a season, add in some dreadful ref performances, opposing team getting double the amount of rest. It honestly isn't that surprising.
Then you add in that this club has been ran utterly appallingly for a long time now and that has major consequences. Just look at Chelsea ffs.
I do think people need to give their fecking heads a wobble and realise even Guardiola wouldn't be much of an improvement with this set of players.
Now if De Gea remains number 1 next season and Utd continue to get smashed and the performances don't improve then those calling for his head definetly have more of a leg to stand on but even if he is well supported this season in the transfer market, I don't think Utd have much of a chance yet against City. They've had much longer to perfect their strategy. While Utd have been a shit show for almost a decade now.
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Big Sam after he keeps Leeds up.
Mr Super DoF Murtough surely has a plan?
It's not for the fans to do the job of a highly-paid exec.
It's not for the fans to do the job of a highly-paid exec.
Close thread.
In the last 2 games we’ve had a re-run of the ‘unfortunate events’ that seem to always happen to the same players. From DdG yesterday to Shaw’s handball, if something bad is going to happen it’s going to happen to these players. Just look at the Sevilla tie, Maguire comes on & the 2nd goal at OT is heading miles wide but just so happens to ricochet off of him, then he can receive a pass in the away leg which you could argue is also another DdG mistake.
Until we rid ourselves of these players changing the manager means nothing.
Tbh it doesn't matter, it just feels like we're doomed, almost as if someone put bad juju on this club since Fergie retired.
We could get a reincarnation of pep, Fergie and Jesus Christ himself, backed with oil state billions and we'd still somehow be shite
We could get a reincarnation of pep, Fergie and Jesus Christ himself, backed with oil state billions and we'd still somehow be shite
Yeah, especially if he keeps picking strange lineups whilst we lose, there’s no excuses really. I’m not Ten Hag out or anything but I think it’s right to have concerns about him.
You could argue that their manager has been lucky to come into a good squad, with great structure. He hasn’t needed to deal with years of bad management before him
Ten Hag has made mistakes, and there are questions about his personal ability as a coach. Still, he has done quite well considering the shit squad.
But sacking him will change absolutely nothing. The manager is almost completely irrelevant when the club is a giant circus. A rudderless ship. This has been proven time and again over the past decade.
Times have changed. These days you need a lot more competent people to run a successful club than just a manager. You need vision at a club level in order to establish continuity and success. We don't have a club vision, we don't have the competent people necessary to establish a vision, and we don't have the people to maintain it. This club is stuck in the past. We are still clinging to the notion that we can simply discover the next Ferguson to run the entire club by himself for the next 20 years. This is not going to happen no matter how many managers you go through.
The club needs a complete overhaul and modernization.
But sacking him will change absolutely nothing. The manager is almost completely irrelevant when the club is a giant circus. A rudderless ship. This has been proven time and again over the past decade.
Times have changed. These days you need a lot more competent people to run a successful club than just a manager. You need vision at a club level in order to establish continuity and success. We don't have a club vision, we don't have the competent people necessary to establish a vision, and we don't have the people to maintain it. This club is stuck in the past. We are still clinging to the notion that we can simply discover the next Ferguson to run the entire club by himself for the next 20 years. This is not going to happen no matter how many managers you go through.
The club needs a complete overhaul and modernization.
There is no contingency plan. They prefer moaning online to football. The more chaos the more moaning. Win win.
That's not how logic works. Nothing he said indicates that.
Why do with one? We could just hire clever RedCafe posters. The more the merrier. Cheap too. Plus unemployment-rates would go up.
Based on 6 months at Brighton?
Bring back José.