Thomas Tuchel | England Manager

siw2007 said:
Is a very familiar damning indictment of English football that we can’t find an English coach is able to take this group of players on.
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This comment has been made a gazillion times yet nothing has changed since Capello or Eriksson no? Your typical English former-professional-turned-coach is still not the brightest bulb.

1) Higher participation: England's FA needs to subsidise Uefa licence courses because it's cheaper to do the badges in Spain, Portugal, Germany, Italy. They produce more coaches overall and the more coaches get trained the higher the overall standard of coaching at youth, recreational, or lower league level. More competition means the cream of the crop among a few thousand coaches will be standouts in tactics.

2) Higher performance standards: Encourage football players to complete A Levels and go back to university after retirement. Hand out Uefa coaching scholarships with degree placements to youth players or professionals who retire early due to injuries and want to coach. Make it necessary for English coaches to have a degree because that is the difference between Klopp or Tuchel and your Lampards and Rooneys. Why shouldn't footballers be required to have basic bachelor's qualifications to be fit for a multimillion pound top job?


Ironically the key problem in the country that invented football that doesn't affect continental Europe is that UK is extremely classist and football is a working class sport that isn't popular among the more educated "public" (private) school attendees. The kids who take football seriously fron childhood are mostly blue collar, immigrants, or mixed/minorities who see it as a ticket out of poverty and it's obvious that once blue collar footballers get rich they send their kids to public schools hoping to raise their social status so their kids mix with wealthier offspring. There is a class issue within English football where being overeducated is deemed as negative because the players generally hail from backgrounds that don't prize higher education (Rooney's "Just Enough Education to Perform" tattoo) whereas finishing your Abitur is viewed positively in German football since it means the player has the intention of applying to university during or after his football career. Havertz, Kimmich, Mertesacker, Goretzka and a lot of top German youth players are praised for juggling the Abitur with playing Bundesliga or CL as teenagers, it's not impossible.

Again in Europe there is less of class divide in football thus it's more common for smart kids or 2nd or 3rd generation players to see a football career as a source of pride e.g. Haaland, Schmeichel, Maldini; whereas in England footballers' offspring may view themselves as too different class-wise to the typical youth academy player so they'd rather mix with those who play golf, tennis, polo. All this means that the best and brightest minds in UK aren't going to choose a football career and the mostly blue collar kids who choose football are encouraged to quit school at 16 to turn pro, then switch to coaching post-retirement without even doing their A Levels. Thus the standard of coaching in UK inevitably suffers as a result since many of these ex-pros like Rooney probably find statistics and data analysis to be a mystery unlike Tuchel who has a business administration degree. This is a societal and classist issue the UK is unwilling to discuss at length, however.
 
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Great appointment, with the added bonus of my right wing mates all fuming. :lol:

We aren’t even rivals to Germany! It’s such a one way rivalry. Grow up and accept our new German overlord.
 
Berbasbullet said:
We aren’t even rivals to Germany! It’s such a one way rivalry.
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Is it even a rivalry? There is a single moment in football history that could define a rivalry between Germany and England (the infamous "Wembley goal" in 1966 which actually wasn't a goal). And even that caused most Germans simply to simply hate the referee/linesman who decided that it was a goal. Besides that I can't think of any memorable matches that could define a real rivalry. Is it even seen as such in England?
 
Lay said:
As much as it is a great appointment, I do find it strange that a big footballing nation like England can't muster up a good enough English manager.

Sucks for United too
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I also find this strange. Doesn’t bother me with smaller nations. But Englands inability to produce good coaches is really weird.
 
Fully expecting England to win the 2026 World Cup with Tuchel. Maybe Germany under Nagelsman will be a step too far, but he makes England instant favorites.

Is it even a rivalry? There is a single moment in football history that could define a rivalry between Germany and England (the infamous "Wembley goal" in 1966 which actually wasn't a goal). And even that caused most Germans simply to simply hate the referee/linesman who decided that it was a goal. Besides that I can't think of any memorable matches that could define a real rivalry. Is it even seen as such in England?
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There is this thing that we are not supposed to mention.
 
stefan92 said:
Is it even a rivalry? There is a single moment in football history that could define a rivalry between Germany and England (the infamous "Wembley goal" in 1966 which actually wasn't a goal). And even that caused most Germans simply to simply hate the referee/linesman who decided that it was a goal. Besides that I can't think of any memorable matches that could define a real rivalry. Is it even seen as such in England?
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Yes! I think it’s the ‘war mentality’. The England fans chant ‘there were 12 German bombers in the air’ (horrific chant). That mixed with beating you in the final, and then subsequently becoming your quarter final banker added to it.

You’re probably the big rivals to us (along with Scotland), the fact you didn’t even know proves my point just how one way the rivalry is. :lol:
 
Berbasbullet said:
Yes! I think it’s the ‘war mentality’. The England fans chant ‘there were 12 German bombers in the air’ (horrific chant). That mixed with beating you in the final, and then subsequently becoming your quarter final banker added to it.

You’re probably the big rivals to us (along with Scotland), the fact you didn’t even know proves my point just how one way the rivalry is. :lol:
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True :lol:

Now that I think of it... shortly after the World Cup 2014 I was on a flight, sitting next to an English guy and we talked a bit about football. I remember he compared the 7-1 semi final win to other batterings on the international stage. He included the 5-1 win of England against Germany in the World Cup qualifiers 2001 and expected me to remember that as a devastating experience for German football. Truth is that match is mostly forgotten as it just didn't really matter. We knew we were shit in those years and still reached the World Cup Final 2002 (while England did nothing of note). I remember how confused I was about that as well. Probably another example of this one sided rivalry.

England just don't matter to us, compared to Italy, Brazil or the Netherlands, probably Spain can by now be really named as well in this list as the Nemesis in recent 15 years.
 
Feels like an appointment really geared to the squad we currently have. Will be interesting to see who plays at LWB though.
 
stefan92 said:
True :lol:

Now that I think of it... shortly after the World Cup 2014 I was on a flight, sitting next to an English guy and we talked a bit about football. I remember he compared the 7-1 semi final win to other batterings on the international stage. He included the 5-1 win of England against Germany in the World Cup qualifiers 2001 and expected me to remember that as a devastating experience for German football. Truth is that match is mostly forgotten as it just didn't really matter. We knew we were shit in those years and still reached the World Cup Final 2002 (while England did nothing of note). I remember how confused I was about that as well. Probably another example of this one sided rivalry.

England just don't matter to us, compared to Italy, Brazil or the Netherlands, probably Spain can by now be really named as well in this list as the Nemesis in recent 15 years.
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The 5-1 was huge here! My Dad had it on a t shirt. :lol:
 
Berbasbullet said:
The 5-1 was huge here! My Dad had it on a t shirt. :lol:
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In Germany there is one match that is remembered as the pinnacle of how dire German football was in that era, but it's not that 5-1, it's a 0-0 in Iceland 2003 (Euro Qualifier). But to be honest that's mostly remembered for the post match interview by Germany's manager Völler:
(I think automatically translated subtitles are reasonably good for that video if you are interested). The real rant starts about 2:30, but it's building up to it :lol:
 
Tom Van Persie said:
Great appointment from the FA.

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Carsley back to the U-21s after finishing off the Nations League campaign and Tuchel will take over from January. Will be interesting to see if there is already some Tuchel influence in the next camp.
 
A German in charge of England, how novel and unheard of!

(Also, I WILL milk this at every opportunity)
 
Harry Kane leading Bayern to a treble in 2026 and Tuchel leading England to a World Cup.
 
They did well to keep this news under wraps. The BBC mention that he signed his contract on 8th October. It may put into context some of Carsely's comments and decisions (assuming he was at least aware he wouldn't be getting the job full time).
 
Ridiculous. He's German. The only acceptable foreigner is a talented dutchman, like Erik Ten Hag.
 
I've got no problem with the appointment. In an ideal world the larger nations should really be able to develop their own national managers, but we're in a spot now with no outstanding candidate and a squad of players primed to win trophies. If we were to miss out on that and end up thinking it was down to poor management

I'm an FA qualified coach working in grass roots trying to find the time to do the UEFA badges. My impression is there is funding out there, but at the moment most of it is earmarked for inclusitivty programmes (https://learn.englandfootball.com/ongoing-learning/Initiatives/partially-funded-places). This is a good idea, but it does mean for many people there is a significant cost barrier.

The reason England aren't producing many top level coaches though I think is really down to time. The standard of coaching and players in England is light years ahead of where it was 20 years ago, and you can see this with the conveyor belt of talent coming through now. There will be a lag with top level coaches though. Once the coaching at the grass roots and academies improves you'll start to see differences in the quality of players really within a few years, but for top coaches at the highest level you need a lot more time. You can't get an 18 year old world class coach like you can a player, they'll start to come through the system in their mid 30s. In fact, you really can see this now that there is a generation of younger coaches starting to emerge, beginning with your Howes and Potters and now Russell Martin, Liam Manning, Kieran McKenna, Ian Evatt and so on.

There is one other problem you don't get with players and its the level of risk and opportunity a coach will get. If you get a young, promising player its pretty low risk for a club to give them their shot. If you have a young, promising coach its a big risk for a club to appoint them. The relative downsides of either failing are light yerars apart so many clubs will still go for the low risk appointments. Its hard to imagine a PL club appointing one of the above, they'll almost certainly have to take a club into the PL (e.g. like Martin and McKenna) to get their shot. Meanwhile jokes (and I'm sorry, they are jokes) like Lampard and Gerrard get gifted chances they've done nothing to deserve.

I think the coaches are going to come through, there's too many of them now that are good for it to not happen, but it will take a bit of time.
 
Great appointment

If they don't win something with that manager and this set of players then they'll never win anything.
 
saivet said:
They did well to keep this news under wraps. The BBC mention that he signed his contract on 8th October. It may put into context some of Carsely's comments and decisions (assuming he was at least aware he wouldn't be getting the job full time).
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They hammered Carsley for his “hopefully I can go back to the under 21s” comment, deserves an apology
 
In before England get knocked out in group stage and you all are begging for Southgate to come back
 
Think the FA have been sensible reading up on everything. They realise that this World Cup is a bit of a last chance saloon for a bunch of the English players that have got them to the finals of the Euros so try to capatalise on that with a top coach (unfortunately for them there aren't any English ones available) and potentially look to replace Tuchel with an English manager post WC.
 
Not really arsed about a foreign manager

If it brings us a trophy brilliant

If he adds to the already baron 58 years, so be it.

But rich for some asking for English managers. I’d be more annoyed if Lampard and Gerrard were appointed ahead of foreigners.

It was only really feasible for Carsley, Howe and potter. None of which are entirely convincing/exciting
 
I am on the floor laughing. Of course we all knew that the FA is a bunch of clueless dorks but this takes the biscuit. No, I've nothing against Tuchel, he has been and possibly still is a decent coach. But here's the thing, he is the total opposite of Southgate. Southgate is the blandest of bland milk puddings, a shapeless blancmange, polite, correct, knows how to touch his forelock, bow to authority and how to say the right thing, no danger of him rocking the boat.

Tuchel is all edges, sharp and spikey, a 5 star vindaloo. Always ready for a fight always on the look out for a stomach he can upset, not afraid to upset anyone! If the blessed Gareth was the right appointment, then Tuchel is the wrong one.

What has changed between times? It's the same job, same players, same old problems but the answer this time is the opposite of last time. Well at least when it all goes pear shaped, the half wits who run the FA will be able to say, 'you can't blame us, we brought in the best!'

This will not be boring. It may well be a laugh a minute.
 
I think it´s excellent for England, But I was kind of hoping he would replace Ten Hag.
 
Didn't see this one coming, but fair play England got a good manager there. Which is upsetting. :lol:
 
Pretty mad they were able to get such a big name in his prime. You’re usually either 60+, on a downward slope or both.
 
Oh well at least I can take a bit of solace when England win a trophy that they have a German manager.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Oh well at least I can take a bit of solace when England win a trophy that they have a German manager.
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It really is beautiful that England need a German to get them to the promised land.
 
"Tuchel will be reunited with Barry"

iu
 
lexisonfire said:
This comment has been made a gazillion times yet nothing has changed since Capello or Eriksson no? Your typical English former-professional-turned-coach is still not the brightest bulb.

1) Higher participation: England's FA needs to subsidise Uefa licence courses because it's cheaper to do the badges in Spain, Portugal, Germany, Italy. They produce more coaches overall and the more coaches get trained the higher the overall standard of coaching at youth, recreational, or lower league level. More competition means the cream of the crop among a few thousand coaches will be standouts in tactics.

2) Higher performance standards: Encourage football players to complete A Levels and go back to university after retirement. Hand out Uefa coaching scholarships with degree placements to youth players or professionals who retire early due to injuries and want to coach. Make it necessary for English coaches to have a degree because that is the difference between Klopp or Tuchel and your Lampards and Rooneys. Why shouldn't footballers be required to have basic bachelor's qualifications to be fit for a multimillion pound top job?


Ironically the key problem in the country that invented football that doesn't affect continental Europe is that UK is extremely classist and football is a working class sport that isn't popular among the more educated "public" (private) school attendees. The kids who take football seriously fron childhood are mostly blue collar, immigrants, or mixed/minorities who see it as a ticket out of poverty and it's obvious that once blue collar footballers get rich they send their kids to public schools hoping to raise their social status so their kids mix with wealthier offspring. There is a class issue within English football where being overeducated is deemed as negative because the players generally hail from backgrounds that don't prize higher education (Rooney's "Just Enough Education to Perform" tattoo) whereas finishing your Abitur is viewed positively in German football since it means the player has the intention of applying to university during or after his football career. Havertz, Kimmich, Mertesacker, Goretzka and a lot of top German youth players are praised for juggling the Abitur with playing Bundesliga or CL as teenagers, it's not impossible.

Again in Europe there is less of class divide in football thus it's more common for smart kids or 2nd or 3rd generation players to see a football career as a source of pride e.g. Haaland, Schmeichel, Maldini; whereas in England footballers' offspring may view themselves as too different class-wise to the typical youth academy player so they'd rather mix with those who play golf, tennis, polo. All this means that the best and brightest minds in UK aren't going to choose a football career and the mostly blue collar kids who choose football are encouraged to quit school at 16 to turn pro, then switch to coaching post-retirement without even doing their A Levels. Thus the standard of coaching in UK inevitably suffers as a result since many of these ex-pros like Rooney probably find statistics and data analysis to be a mystery unlike Tuchel who has a business administration degree. This is a societal and classist issue the UK is unwilling to discuss at length, however.
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I'll be honest, I think it is much simpler than this. You guys have the Hennes academy which seems simply much better at producing coaches; you can churn out the names it has produced in recent times and see there is a good model there: Flick, Tuchel, Nagelsmann, Klopp etc.

There is super high participation in the UK for coaching badges these days and clubs will sponsor their coaches to take the UEFA licenses, private schools also encourage a lot of participation in football but the truth is it's incredibly hard to get into academies by that age. If you are not in an academy by 11 years old, the chances of getting in must be extremely slim now, whereas when I grew up is was common to get trials all the way through to about 16. England's coaching is simply a generation behind you guys. The current middle aged crop of English managers looks much more promising, although maybe none will reach that truly elite level (Howe, Potter, Parker, O'Neill, Carrick, Edwards all manage good clubs) but they have become much more progressive than those who came before them i.e Wilder, Big Sam, Bruce. I am intrigued with Tuchel's appointment if they plan to have him help them to improve their elite coaching pathways, he is apparently extremely studious/obsessive about these kind of things and maybe they are hoping to tap into that knowledge as well.
 
lexisonfire said:
This comment has been made a gazillion times yet nothing has changed since Capello or Eriksson no? Your typical English former-professional-turned-coach is still not the brightest bulb.

1) Higher participation: England's FA needs to subsidise Uefa licence courses because it's cheaper to do the badges in Spain, Portugal, Germany, Italy. They produce more coaches overall and the more coaches get trained the higher the overall standard of coaching at youth, recreational, or lower league level. More competition means the cream of the crop among a few thousand coaches will be standouts in tactics.

2) Higher performance standards: Encourage football players to complete A Levels and go back to university after retirement. Hand out Uefa coaching scholarships with degree placements to youth players or professionals who retire early due to injuries and want to coach. Make it necessary for English coaches to have a degree because that is the difference between Klopp or Tuchel and your Lampards and Rooneys. Why shouldn't footballers be required to have basic bachelor's qualifications to be fit for a multimillion pound top job?


Ironically the key problem in the country that invented football that doesn't affect continental Europe is that UK is extremely classist and football is a working class sport that isn't popular among the more educated "public" (private) school attendees. The kids who take football seriously fron childhood are mostly blue collar, immigrants, or mixed/minorities who see it as a ticket out of poverty and it's obvious that once blue collar footballers get rich they send their kids to public schools hoping to raise their social status so their kids mix with wealthier offspring. There is a class issue within English football where being overeducated is deemed as negative because the players generally hail from backgrounds that don't prize higher education (Rooney's "Just Enough Education to Perform" tattoo) whereas finishing your Abitur is viewed positively in German football since it means the player has the intention of applying to university during or after his football career. Havertz, Kimmich, Mertesacker, Goretzka and a lot of top German youth players are praised for juggling the Abitur with playing Bundesliga or CL as teenagers, it's not impossible.

Again in Europe there is less of class divide in football thus it's more common for smart kids or 2nd or 3rd generation players to see a football career as a source of pride e.g. Haaland, Schmeichel, Maldini; whereas in England footballers' offspring may view themselves as too different class-wise to the typical youth academy player so they'd rather mix with those who play golf, tennis, polo. All this means that the best and brightest minds in UK aren't going to choose a football career and the mostly blue collar kids who choose football are encouraged to quit school at 16 to turn pro, then switch to coaching post-retirement without even doing their A Levels. Thus the standard of coaching in UK inevitably suffers as a result since many of these ex-pros like Rooney probably find statistics and data analysis to be a mystery unlike Tuchel who has a business administration degree. This is a societal and classist issue the UK is unwilling to discuss at length, however.
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Hey, leave our Rooney alone...
 
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