This will be Van Gaal's dilemma going forward. Wazza is no longer a 20 league goal striker, and as such, if he comes across a dynamic young striker who is capable of 20-30 goals, he will be faced with a choice on what to do with Wayne.
This is my team 15/16
- Thread starter Magnus
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
This will be Van Gaal's dilemma going forward. Wazza is no longer a 20 league goal striker, and as such, if he comes across a dynamic young striker who is capable of 20-30 goals, he will be faced with a choice on what to do with Wayne.
This could work
Subs: Herrera, Blind, Jones, Rojo, Wilson, Fellaini, Valdes
Do you think 2 DM's are necessary? Carrick/Blind did not work, so you sure Carrick/Gundogan will do any better?
I like it, but would propose a small tweak
................Rooney...............
Bale......................Di Maria
.......Fellaini...Herrera.........
..............Gundogan...............
I think he'd put him in the position you have Mata there. The furthermost forward of the midfielders. certainly don't see him leaving him out.
Assuming we sign a striker that is, though I don't see van Persie leaving anyway.
He is surely reaching that point now, he clearly doesn't think Rooney can cut it up front long term, & LvG will surely priorities getting someone in who has the potential to bang in 20 + per season, a blind man can see Rooney isn't the next Scholes in midfield, so what does he do with him? I'm at a loss to answer that.
They aren't necessary - we've done ok this year without two. As mentioned earlier, Gundogan can replace Carrick (lets face it, no one expects both of them to always be fit at the same time), Herrera can replace Gundogan. The player combinations increase with the likes of Gundogan, Blind et al in the mix.
I'm not sure we've tried it, have we?
Subs: Valdes, Rojo, Blind, Fellaini, Mata, Januzaj, Dybala
My biggest concern is LvG tries to squeeze another year of productivity out of RvP, thereby moving Rooney in the hole and squeezing Mata completely out, just to shoehorn RvP in. We're strongest with one striker imo.
Trouble is, the right striker isn't available right now so i hope LvG doesn't go out and take risk on an overpriced option, much as he did with Falcao this year.
100% agree.
I do think despite his recent decent spell, Mata is under threat. I just don't see van Gaal parting with van Persie for another year at least.
I look at Mata sometimes and he frustrates me (as do most of them at the moment). Undoubted quality and a match winner on his day, but I'm still not convinced he quite 'fits' long term. Still disappears for large parts of games quite often. That said, I like the guy so hope he does play a part.
Subs: Valdes, Rojo, Blind, Fellaini, Mata, Januzaj, Dybala
Good shout on Memphis. In fact, if we buy him instead of Bale we could, as you have it, also afford the likes of Schneiderlin, Hummels, Dybala, as well as a RB.
I have the feeling he'll take a chance on someone, he has to. To go into the season, with RvP, and Rooney would be suicide, especially if the back up does end up been Ings.
Do you not think he'll have a look at Benteke, Icardi, or if we get desperate enough just keep Hernandez, although the thirds option is the most unlikely I suppose.
What would be disagreeing about? When Zidane played for France they played with two powerful defensive CM's behind him, when he played for Real Madrid he played off the left of the attack like Mata is doing for us on the right. Silva at City only plays centrally when both Fernando and Fernandinho are at the base of midfield.
If you want Mata as a 10 you have to build your midfield base to accommodate him.
Last edited:
I was meaning that, but I wasn't meaning buy an actual 10, I meant a proper AM like the ones I listed in the psot further down, or switching Herrera to the 10 role and adding a more defensive #8. Injuries happen so Rooney might play there, but it shouldn't be a choice made without an injury reason IMO.
The last 2 wont be used in midfield from this point on IMO unless we bring in a destoryer to partner Carrick or Herrera at the abse, in fact I am not even sure Di Maria will be here. I also don't think Blind is good enough to be relied on as the only real cover for a 34 year old Carrick. It's better to be safe than sorry like we are right now, it's why Fergie carried 6 CB's at one point.
Herrera was dropped from the starting line-up due to his lax approach to possession, once he got back in there has never been a chance to play him as a #10, that was the main point we were discussing, you said LvG had chances to use him there and didn't, I just don't think he trusted him period and then once he did there was never an opportunity to utilize him in the role.
Bale can I think, I don't believe it's in Di Maria make-up to play the way LvG wants, he also looks like he's scared of the tackles coming his way. Personally whether it's this summer or next I think we'll cut our losses.
Lloris
Coleman-Jones-Smalling-Shaw (All UK back line!)
Carrick-Rooney- Gungadoan
Lacazette-Benteke-Young
Subs: Fellaini, Blind, Rojo, RVP, Herrera, Valdes
Coleman-Jones-Smalling-Shaw (All UK back line!)
Carrick-Rooney- Gungadoan
Lacazette-Benteke-Young
Subs: Fellaini, Blind, Rojo, RVP, Herrera, Valdes
Either way, I don't feel we need to add to that area.
Di Maria and Mata may well not be Van Gaal's first choice in midfield, but they'd be definarely used there if needed.
As for Blind, he might not be good enough to relied on, which is why I keep saying we should buy an 8 who can play as a 6.
A lot of those centre backs played left back, right back and even centre mid, at times. Like Van Gaal, Fergie liked his versatile players.
Herrera was dropped because Van Gaal didn't think he could do the job as an 8 and felt he wasn't good enough to displace Rooney or Mata out of the 10 role.
“I have to compare him with people like Rooney and Mata, for example, so that’s difficult, they are all at a high level - he has to improve,” said the Reds boss.
“But he’s a great guy, he’s a very great professional also, so that’s not the problem - his problem is he has to compete with high level players and Rooney is also the captain so he has a privilege.
“So then the other places are the place of the position in this system that we are playing now with a number 10 and that’s Mata and that’s Di Maria. That’s difficult to compete against but he did already know that at the moment that he signed for Manchester United.
“When you sign for a top club like he did he knows that he is had to fight but he is fighting.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ander-herrera-must-improve-manchester-8597120
As for the main point, we played the same system before, with Mata (10) and Fellaini (8) or Rooney (8) and Fellaini (10) and we were fine. This is when we played Chelsea and City, respectively. Therefore, the opportunity was there for him to use Herrera and he didn't.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree then.
Both the first and second sentence are avoidable if we invest fully in midfield instead of going with the "He might do a job" route. Lets say we go your route and try Gundogan as your 8/6 hybrid with Carrick at the base and Ander as the AM. If Carrick gets injured which is quite likely, then we either play Blind in the #6 role and weaken the midfield significantly, or we move Gundogan to the #6 role, Herrera to the #8 and Rooney to the AM meaning we'd have to play RvP up front weakening our attack.
We still had a full quota of fullback's and CM's as well though, all I'm saying is Fergie overstocked rather than understocked, which is the best way IMO.
Herrera's version is not the same as LvG's but ok. The times he could have used him there were before he'd fully earned van Gaal's trust, I think the bottom line is though that you don't want Herrera playing there and would prefer Rooney or Mata, which is fine, I guess we'll see how LvG approaches it in the next few months. For the record in my ideal United side none of them would play there anyway, which is pretty much the crux of this thread.
Valdes
Coleman---Smalling---Hummels---Shaw
Carrick
Hererra---------Gundogan
Mata------------Rooney-------------Bale
Coleman---Smalling---Hummels---Shaw
Carrick
Hererra---------Gundogan
Mata------------Rooney-------------Bale
Well I see Viera as much more than a "powerful defensive CM". Yes he was awesome defensively but he added so much more. Thanks for clarifying
.Coleman isn't British.
Bale won't be coming. If Bayern want Gundogan then that's him scratched off our muppet list also.
---------Lloris
Clyne Smalling Hummels Shaw
-------Luis Gustavo
Depay Herrera Di Maria
-------Rooney
-------Benteke
---------Lloris
Clyne Smalling Hummels Shaw
-------Luis Gustavo
Depay Herrera Di Maria
-------Rooney
-------Benteke
Oh right Irish
In:
Clyne
Laporte
Gundogan
Schneiderlin
Depay
Ings
Out:
Rafael
Falcao (Loan ends)
Blackett (Loan)
Wilson (Loan)
Pereira
Evans
Nani
Chicharito
Leaves us with:
------------------ De Gea (Valdes)
Clyne (Valencia) -- Smalling (Jones) -- Laporte (Rojo/McNair) -- Shaw (Blind)
--------------- Schneiderlin (Carrick)
-------- Herrera (Gundogan) -- Mata (Fellaini)
----- Di Maria (Januzaj) --------------- Depay (Young)
------------------ Rooney (RvP - Ings)
Average age of that squad is 25.3 and would contain 11 homegrown players, got a pretty youthful core and only 5 players in the squad are 30 or over (RvP, Carrick and Valdes with Young and Valencia turning 30 over summer). Obviously it's only guesswork on who comes in and goes out but if the departures are as expected, it's insane to think that only De Gea, Jones, Smalling, Valencia, Young, Carrick, Rooney and RvP remain from SAF's final season which was only two years ago.
Clyne
Laporte
Gundogan
Schneiderlin
Depay
Ings
Out:
Rafael
Falcao (Loan ends)
Blackett (Loan)
Wilson (Loan)
Pereira
Evans
Nani
Chicharito
Leaves us with:
------------------ De Gea (Valdes)
Clyne (Valencia) -- Smalling (Jones) -- Laporte (Rojo/McNair) -- Shaw (Blind)
--------------- Schneiderlin (Carrick)
-------- Herrera (Gundogan) -- Mata (Fellaini)
----- Di Maria (Januzaj) --------------- Depay (Young)
------------------ Rooney (RvP - Ings)
Average age of that squad is 25.3 and would contain 11 homegrown players, got a pretty youthful core and only 5 players in the squad are 30 or over (RvP, Carrick and Valdes with Young and Valencia turning 30 over summer). Obviously it's only guesswork on who comes in and goes out but if the departures are as expected, it's insane to think that only De Gea, Jones, Smalling, Valencia, Young, Carrick, Rooney and RvP remain from SAF's final season which was only two years ago.
Well I see Viera as much more than a "powerful defensive CM". Yes he was awesome defensively but he added so much more. Thanks for clarifying
No problem.
Yes he had more to his game but ostensibly he was one of two CM's that provided a cushion for Zidane to concentrate on offensive duties.I'm just going off what Van Gaal said.
Wow! You don't half over exaggerate lol. Van Gaal likes versatile players, so if injuries do occur, it will mean that players will occasionally get moved around. Nothing to do with 'he might do a job', because they can play there.
The second choice midfield you mentioned, although you strangely left out Fellaini, would be more than good enough to compete. Lets just say our first choice midfield next season is:
1st Choice: (Everyone fit - if Herrera gets played as a 10)
Herrera - Gundogan
Carrick
2nd choice (Carrick injured)
Fellaini - Herrera
Gundogan
3rd (Carrick and Gundogan injured)
Fellaini - Herrera
Blind
Those three options are more than good enough, in my opinion. You've got to be realistic. You can't expect us to get a specialist player for every position when we can kill two birds with one stone. Van Gaal likes to have a small squad and by doing this, it allows him to do so.
Not when we had to play Fletcher and Carrick at the back. Also, I very much doubt we'll have the same amount of injuries next season.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said I would prefer Rooney or Mata there, I'm saying what I think Van Gaal will do based on how he uses his number 10's. Van Gaal has very rarely used Herrera as a 10.
For example, when Herrera come on as a number 10 for the injured Di Maria against Hull. He had a very good game but Van Gaal had the chance to start him and didn't. Had Di Maria not go injured, he possibly wouldn't have played.
We could of had these two players on opposite wings. We would of been the world's best.
I don't see how I'm exaggerating because the removal of one player clearly upsets the quality of the team, once you add Fellaini or Blind we become less, I see no point in accepting that or risking it all on a 34 year old, it will cost us, we are barely scraping 4th as it is, one addition in midfield won't fix that. We are one of the 4 biggest clubs in the world, lets cover our bases.
Why? We seem to get them non stop, and it's not just this season, like you just pointed out we got so depleted at one point under a better stocked Fergie that we had 2 CM's as CB's.
So you wouldn't prefer Rooney or Mata as the #10?
Throughout a season, injuries will occur. You just can't expect the back ups to be the same quality as the first choice players, hence why they're back ups. For example, if Matic was to get injured for Chelsea, Mikel/Zouma would come in. Or Ramires if Fabregas got injured. Fortunately for Chelsea, they haven't had the injuries we've had. We've had a bit of a freak season, in regards to injuries.
I don't think we're scraping fourth because of our midfield. Sure we need another addition, but to say we're fourth because of our midfield is wrong, in my opinion. I mean, the two players you mentioned in Blind and especially Fellaini, have been pivotal to us bossing the top 5/6 teams in the EPL recently.
That doesn't mean we go out and buy 100 players to make sure we're safe. We've had a freak season with injuries and we've still coped. We're fourth. Guess Van Gaal deserves a lot of credit for that too.
Rooney, no. Mata, maybe, depending on the opposition.
I think we are just scraping 4th for a number of reasons, including a midfield that is reliant on a 34 year old to tick properly and the lack of pace and goal threat in the wide options of the front 3. We need cover at both #6 and #8 IMO and neither should be compromises, especially given the age of Carrick who we should treat having as a bonus.
Who's exaggerating now?
I am saying buy 2 CM's for specific roles instead of risking lowering the quality every time a 34 year old can't play, I mean even if he stays relatively fit we most likely will have to manage his games as we did with Rio. I don't want us to have to play Blind or Fellaini every time Carrick is off. Of course I know you also don't want us to buy a CB so I guess we just see squads differently, I'm not into stretching it so thin that we are using these supposed can play anywhere options.Fair enough, as I said to Rob Bowman I think if Mata is to play as a #10 you have to build around that with your midfield base, if LvG brings in a Schneiderlin type that may well happen and we'll see more of a 4-2-3-1 next season.
Team 1
de Gea
Clyne Smalling Hummels Shaw
Carrick
Herrera Schneiderlin
Memphis Rooney Di Maria
_______________________________
Team 2Clyne Smalling Hummels Shaw
Carrick
Herrera Schneiderlin
Memphis Rooney Di Maria
_______________________________
Valdes
Rafael Jones Rojo xxx
Blind
Mata Fellaini
Nani RvP Young
______________________________
Rafael Jones Rojo xxx
Blind
Mata Fellaini
Nani RvP Young
______________________________
Which means if we were to buy an 8, who could also cover for Carrick when injured, that would be fine. I mean, I don't get the problem. I put out a midfield when Carrick was injured. Do you not like a three of Fellaini - Gundogan - Herrera as our 2nd choice midfield?
As for Carrick, if he still plays at a high level, which he has been doing, we shouldn't treat him as a bonus. He should play. Personally, I would get an 8/6 this Summer and then replace Carrick the following Summer. That's when we can focus on a specialist. That's what I would do anyway.
Who's exaggerating now?
Guess you're rubbing off on me.
That would mean we'd have, Carrick, Blind, Fellaini, Herrera, New 8 and New 6. This is not to mention the other players that can play in midfield. That's just way too many for me, in my opinion. I'd have:Herrera (10 and 8)
Fellaini (10)
Gundogan (8 and 6)
Blind (6)
Carrick (6)
This means we've got two players for each position in midfield. Well, three for the 6 position.
Rio was only managed because he struggled with his back in the later stages of his career. Carrick, on the other hand, although he's been injured, is generally a fit professional, who could play at the top level for another 2/3 years, due to his play style, in my opinion.
As for centre backs, we've already had this discussion. I feel that 3 main centre backs with one back up is enough, as most teams have got. Having said that, we also agreed that getting a right back that can play centre back (versatile players) would be another option, hence why I put Howedes in my team, and maybe why we've been linked to him lately.
Possibly, ye.
Assuming Van Gaal is in charge, I'd build up the squad over 2 summers, basically:
Summer of 2015 -
1- Goalscoring Winger - Ex: Bale/Reus/Depay/Griezmann
2- Box to Box CM - Ex: Koke/Vidal
3- Right Back - Ex: Carvajal/Coleman/Fabinho
4- Center Back - Ex: Gimenez/Hummels/Laporte/Alderweireld
Summer of 2016 -
1 - Carrick Replacement - Ex: Schneiderlin/Xhaka
2 - RVP Replacement - Ex: Lacazette
And sell Chicharito, Valencia, Young, Nani, Cleverley and Evans.
2015, using the most realistic signings:
-------------Rooney-----------
Depay----------------DiMaria
--------Vidal----Herrera------
------------Carrick------------
Shaw--------------------Coleman
-----Hummels--Smalling-----
------------De Gea------------
-RVP backs up Rooney (Wilson too)
-Mata covers the next 4 players (with Di Maria's versatility allowing that). Fellaini, Pereira and Januzaj are the other cover for those 4 spots.
-Blind backs up Carrick and Shaw
-Rafael backs up Coleman.
-Jones and Rojo back up the CBs
then in 2016, it's a young, pacey striker in for RVP and the best DM we can find under 30 for Carrick.
Keeps the squad lean and talented.
Summer of 2015 -
1- Goalscoring Winger - Ex: Bale/Reus/Depay/Griezmann
2- Box to Box CM - Ex: Koke/Vidal
3- Right Back - Ex: Carvajal/Coleman/Fabinho
4- Center Back - Ex: Gimenez/Hummels/Laporte/Alderweireld
Summer of 2016 -
1 - Carrick Replacement - Ex: Schneiderlin/Xhaka
2 - RVP Replacement - Ex: Lacazette
And sell Chicharito, Valencia, Young, Nani, Cleverley and Evans.
2015, using the most realistic signings:
-------------Rooney-----------
Depay----------------DiMaria
--------Vidal----Herrera------
------------Carrick------------
Shaw--------------------Coleman
-----Hummels--Smalling-----
------------De Gea------------
-RVP backs up Rooney (Wilson too)
-Mata covers the next 4 players (with Di Maria's versatility allowing that). Fellaini, Pereira and Januzaj are the other cover for those 4 spots.
-Blind backs up Carrick and Shaw
-Rafael backs up Coleman.
-Jones and Rojo back up the CBs
then in 2016, it's a young, pacey striker in for RVP and the best DM we can find under 30 for Carrick.
Keeps the squad lean and talented.
No, I don't like that midfield. Personally I'd keep Fellaini as the option off the bench when games are desperate and we can start hitting it high and hopeful, his limitations beyond that are not what I want for a United AM.
Fair enough, I wouldn't leave it to chance.
Guess you're rubbing off on me.
Herrera (10 and 8)
Fellaini (10)
Gundogan (8 and 6)
Blind (6)
Carrick (6)
This means we've got two players for each position in midfield. Well, three for the 6 position.
Must be that! These other players that can do a job is my issue, I don't want to see us moving Rooney out of the #9 or Mata into midfield to compensate.I don't see what is wrong with the ark concept of squad building.
RB - Valencia/Whoever
LB Shaw/Blind
RCB Smalling/Jones
LCB Laporte/Rojo
#6 Carrick/Gundogan
#8 Kondogbia/Herrera
#10 Herrera/Mata
LWF Depay/Young
RWF Bale/Januzaj
#9 Rooney/RvP
Do you think Bayern will let the fact they have Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Alonso, Rode, Alaba, Martinez and Gaudinho as CM's prevent them buying Xhaka or Gundogan because they know Alonso is getting old and Schweini is injury prone? Before you say some of those can play more than 1 role, they have 2 LB's before they need Alaba and 2 RB's before they get to Lahm, and they have 4 CB's before they need Martinez in there.
Once injuries start setting in that's usually a sign of the years catching up with the body, like the aforementioned Bastian, that's why you don't risk it, you buy with a worst case scenario mindset as opposed to just hoping it'll clear up and find yourself without a key player for a dozen games and your whole team quality suffering as you shuffle everyone around.
I honestly only saw him linked with us once, and I'd be all for that with Marquinhos or Stones, players I know could move into CB once Jones and Rojo do something stupid again, but truth is I really don't think we should be looking to start the season with either Jones or Rojo as a first choice, and you wont find many wanting to start with Valencia either lol.
You've changed your tune. The other day you were talking about why change a winning formula. Fellaini has been pivotal to how we've been playing of late, so I don't understand why you don't think he's good enough to be a back up next season.
Even if we've got Gundogan and Blind as back up?
But even so, you're moving away from the fact that, assuming we buy an 8/6, we would have 5 centre midfielders competing for 3 spots. That's not including Mata and Rooney.
In that list you have mentioned two natural full backs and an 18 year old that is covering for injuries. In Martinez, Schweinsteiger, Thaigo (u missed) Alonso and Rode they have five natural centre midfielders who would be in the first team set up. If they add Xhaka or Gundogan, that would make 6, athlough I think they'd get rid of someone if they were to add.You watching the Madrid vs Juventus team? A team like Madrid, who are 'one of the biggest clubs in the world' are currently playing Ramos (CB) in midfield.
Once injuries start in the same place, yes, but it's something different with Carrick. He had ankle surgery at the start of the season and he's out with a calf injury now. He's hardly injury prone. Actually, he's more reliable than most of our players.
If we do want another centre back, then I think that would be the best option. Kill two birds with one stone.
Last edited:
In terms of what we are doing right now, but come the summer we have the option to vastly upgrade.
Even if we've got Gundogan and Blind as back up?
I don't trust Blind as a #6 period, and I have said several times now that once you move Gundogan into the #6 role you then have to either play Fellaini or Rooney as the AM/#10, something I don't want us to do.
We should have two proper options for every role IMO.
I guess you'll have to ask Lahm and Guardiola about how they see his natural game now, he's been at the hub of their midfield for back to back Bundesliga title wins so I guess maybe he's not a RB anymore in his or his mangers eyes. As for Alaba, he was moved there by LvG, Pep wants to move him back to midfield hence the purchase of Bernat, I'll tag @Balu to back me on this as he's an actual Bayern supporter.
You watching the Madrid vs Juventus team? A team like Madrid, who are 'one of the biggest clubs in the world' are currently playing Ramos (CB) in midfield.
Modric and Khedira are injured, Lucas Silva is inexperienced and clearly Real have decided Illarmendi isn't good enough. So they aren't short of the numbers, it's a desperation situation for them, of course it helps when you have 4 world class forward players to ease the pressure.
He has been yes, but at his age when they start to become a case of regular niggles it's something that causes concern and starts to show a potential decline in the body.
Stick and s on the end of that sentence and we agree!
I'm not sure you can give fixed positions to our players as long as Pep is manager. I do expect Alaba to play a more central role though, he was always a midfielder, just moved to leftback for a while, and wants to play there as much as possible. Not so sure about Lahm because we lack a great rightback (Rafinha is doing well, but he's nothing special).
Anyway, we have Hojbjerg on loan at Augsburg, Gaudino as a fantastic young talent at the club and just bought Kimmich, another great midfield talent. We don't really need Gündogan. But then, Pep loves to have as many midfielders as possible, so who knows.
Woah woah woah......Coleman is Irish.
Yeah Yeah I was already castigated earlier
Nevermind. Poor Aymeric Laporte has been called Spanish on here and on the MEN website someone actually said he was Italian.Yeah Yeah I was already castigated earlier