Yes, we'd win a lot of matches playing with an extra player.
all top squads have selection issuesThis is my team 15/16
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
all top squads have selection issuesYou are problaby right and that is very depressing, both weaken us in the role.
I think when Van Gaal said he wants a midfield to let the creative players have more freedom, people thought he wanted a out and out destroyer. I don't think this is the case, and the players you mentioned are too limited, in my opinion, to play as a number 8 for Van Gaal.
Strootman was very important to Van Gaal, not only because he was a solid box to box type, but because he was also good on the ball and kept things ticking over. Neither of the players you mentioned do this. Gundogan, on the other hand, does, and gives a lot defensively. Ftiness might not be what it was, but if he was to come, I can imagine a solid pre season would sort him out.
I mean, even you mentioned the number 8's Van Gaal has used, which is why you said Fellaini shouldn't play as an 8. Players like Seedorf, Sweinsteiger, Strootman, Xavi, etc. Ball players, who also give a lot defensively. Otherwise, if we want a destroyer, just put Fellaini as the 8.
Just have a look at the thread and look where people have put Gundogan, yet you decide you want to critique my team.
I didn't list Gundogan as a #8 though as I don't think that is where we'd play him, and I only quoted you as we have talked before, it wasn't that I didn't notice others also had him in a position that suits 2012 Gundogan not 2015.
Look at all those #8's bar Xavi, all of them have physical attributes to play as the #8, Gundogan does not have those attributes. If we bought him I think LvG would be looking to converting him to a #6 for his passing qualities as the dynamic side of his game has gone.He is usually more advanced yes, but it's not advanced like Herrera plays for us, it's more how Southampton's 2 at the base play.
LvG did say that before Herrera came to the fore though and I think we can add the balance with a player at the base as we'll need to do that with Carrick getting older and more susceptible to injury
Wouldn't weaken us, in my opinion. As good as Fellaini and Herrera have been, they are not regular goalscorers. Rooney playing there would guarantee us an extra 15 plus goals a season - similar to what Lampard did for Chelsea. We need midfielders to score us goals, especially if we don't get a goalscoring winger.
I didn't list Gundogan as a #8 though as I don't think that is where we'd play him, and I only quoted you as we have talked before, it wasn't that I didn't notice others also had him in a position that suits 2012 Gundogan not 2015.
I think that is where we play him. Van Gaal has constantly said he's had to play Rooney as an 8 to give us balance. This is why I feel we'll be getting an 8. Whether this player is Gundogan remains to be seen, but I personally think if he was to come, he'd be playing there. That said, this is not to say he won't play as a 6 at times if Carrick or Blind are out.
That means he's technically an 8.
Which means if we get an 8 who can play as a 6 (i.e. Gundogan) we'd be killing two birds with one stone. I don't get what the issue is.[/QUOTE]
Then in truth we might as well just call it 4-2-3-1 as Rooney is limited in the aspects of a real #10 and we'd we'd need to compensate in other areas creatively.
Herrera became that #8 though in between LvG saying that, which is why I think a player at the base is where we are must vulnerable at this point.
That means he's technically an 8.
Technically but not practically for the system we use, the "60 meters" player that LvG referenced Herrera as being.
The issue is that I don't think Gundogan as a #8 offers us anything that Herrera doesn't and I am not sure he can play it in the PL. It should be Blind to cover/compete for LB, Gundogan and Carrick for the #6 and a more athletic and dynamic option to compete with Herrera or allow Herrera into the #10/AM role.
Why? Rooney will play in the exact same role Fellaini is playing now, so the system would remain the same. As for creativity, how creative is Fellaini?
We still need another number 8, though, regardless of whether Van Gaal feels Herrera is a number 8 or not. This is the reason we are having to put Rooney there today.
Think you're looking into things too much. Gundogan would easily be able to play where Herrera plays for us now.
That's fine, but we still need another number 8. Herrera is not enough.
Why is because it's far from ideal, we are making do rather than maximizing the potential of the role in the system. Neither Rooney or Fellaini should be in that role IMO.
The reason we had to play Rooney there today was because both our #6's were unable to play that role, maybe LvG sees Pereira as Herrera's back-up for next season, but I wouldn't argue with a #8 and a #6 coming in, we need both IMO if we are to use Rooney in the role he's best suited to.
I'm looking at it as someone that has watched a lot of Dortmund and seen a lot of Gundogan this season, he doesn't have that kind of groiund coverage in him now. I'll tag @Sphaero to this as he is a Dortmund fran who sees all of their games.
Not disagreeing, I think we need one of each for our midfield, we can't risk Carrick alone at 34 and as seen without him we look very poor.
Gk - Lloris or Leno (if dave leaves)
RB - Clyne
CB - smalling
CB - hummels
Lb - Rodriguez (Shaw is made of glass and blind isn't good enough)
CDM - carrick
Cm - herrera and gundogan
RW - bale
St - benteke
LW - depay
Bench : valdes, Jones, rooney, perriera, fellaini, chicharito, young.
So basically a whole new starting 11.
RB - Clyne
CB - smalling
CB - hummels
Lb - Rodriguez (Shaw is made of glass and blind isn't good enough)
CDM - carrick
Cm - herrera and gundogan
RW - bale
St - benteke
LW - depay
Bench : valdes, Jones, rooney, perriera, fellaini, chicharito, young.
So basically a whole new starting 11.
Schmeichel
Cafu Nesta Maldini Carlos
Beckham Keane Scholes Zidane
Ronaldo Messi
Cafu Nesta Maldini Carlos
Beckham Keane Scholes Zidane
Ronaldo Messi
[/QUOTE]Wouldn't weaken us, in my opinion. As good as Fellaini and Herrera have been, they are not regular goalscorers. Rooney playing there would guarantee us an extra 15 plus goals a season - similar to what Lampard did for Chelsea. We need midfielders to score us goals, especially if we don't get a goalscoring winger.
I think that is where we play him. Van Gaal has constantly said he's had to play Rooney as an 8 to give us balance. This is why I feel we'll be getting an 8. Whether this player is Gundogan remains to be seen, but I personally think if he was to come, he'd be playing there. That said, this is not to say he won't play as a 6 at times if Carrick or Blind are out.
That means he's technically an 8.
Which means if we get an 8 who can play as a 6 (i.e. Gundogan) we'd be killing two birds with one stone. I don't get what the issue is.
We could do with a 25 a season striker. Goals from midfield are a bonus.
As important as he is, Carrick's absence, age, and the likelihood his fitness will again be an issue next season has highlighted the need to find a replacement this summer.
I don't know who that replacement would be, mind...
I don't know who that replacement would be, mind...
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Van Gaal prefers his attacking midfielders to play like second strikers, rather than playmaking number 10's, therefore, although I'd prefer Rooney up top, I would understand if he was put there next season.
Yes, but even so, there's no one to cover for him.
You are talking as if he won't recover that fitness.
This is why someone like Gundogan, who can play as a 6 and an 8, would be a good buy.
For example, when Carrick is out we could play a three of say:
Rooney - Herrera
Gundogan
Gundogan
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If that's what he wants then Herrera could easily move into the attacking role, he must have seen by now that a 30 year old Rooney is not going to offer him a lot in that role, his best contribution for us is as a striker, you compromise way too much when you move him into midfield in any role.
I agree that's why I think we need one of each unless Pereira is going to get the vote of confidence as the cover.
That's the problem, I don't think Gundogan can play the #8 in this league now, I made a slight alteration to your team which I think would give us the balance LvG has been going on about.
DDG
Carvajal - Smalling - Hummels - Shaw
Martinez
Mata - Herrera - Di Maria - Depay
Rooney
Bench: Valdes, Blind, Jones, Carrick, Fellaini, RVP, Messi
Carvajal - Smalling - Hummels - Shaw
Martinez
Mata - Herrera - Di Maria - Depay
Rooney
Bench: Valdes, Blind, Jones, Carrick, Fellaini, RVP, Messi
Sign.
Di sciligio
Hummels
Laporte
Imbula
Pogba
Depay
Anderson
Sell
Young
Fellaini
Rvp
Falcao(terminate loan)
Jones
Evans
Valencia
Nani
Mata
Di sciligio
Hummels
Laporte
Imbula
Pogba
Depay
Anderson
Sell
Young
Fellaini
Rvp
Falcao(terminate loan)
Jones
Evans
Valencia
Nani
Mata
Rooney scored 15 plus goals from behind the striker last season. He has done so for the last 4/5 years so I don't see why you think he couldn't continue that, given the right service.
Pereira is not a number 8. No chance!
You keep saying it as if he's an old man, who can't move. He's 24 and will easily get back to tip top condition with a good pre season. He's had like the 4th or 5th most appearances for Dortmund this season and the other day he played 180 mins against Bayern the other day.
That's a horrible midfield, in my opinion. Schneiderlin is a better 6, in my opinion. You need your 8 to stitch things together for the team, especially in a 433/4141, and Schneiderlin, although a good player, doesn't do that, in my opinion. Switching Gundogan and Schnierderlin would make so much more sense.
Also, Herrera as a 10? Maybe, but again, I don't see him getting enough goals from that position. He doesn't seem like Van Gaal's 10 to me. Could be wrong, though.
We were playing 4-4-2 last season, and that is not the same role as LvG requires in 4-3-3, he may want goals but he also wants more on the ball and Rooney just doesn't give that. If we play him there we'll be even less effective than we have been this season in terms of hurting teams, at 30 Rooney's role should be that of the striker that does his best work in the box.
He's been playing there quite a lot this season in the reserves.
It has nothing to do with his age or his stamina, he has had a very serious back injury that has clearly affected his mobility, it's not surprising, he wouldn't be the first player to have a bad physical issue and have to adapt their game.
You also need your #8 to be able to do the hard yards from box to box, not just jog around which is what Gundogan does these days. Also the #6 in LvG's role is not really what Schneiderlin's strengths are, he wants a passer there,a deep lying playmaker where as Schnieiderlin is more all action. In our system the #6 controls the play, hence why Gundogan with his passing range and two footed ability is a good choice to replace Carrick but we'd need the extra legs somewhere in that midfield, hence Schneiderlin
If Herrera could chip in with 10 that would be enough depending on how well we upgrade the wide attacking options. Herrera has a much more rounded game to be a #10 in a possession system than Rooney.
lol Valencia as RB? ok
If there was an upgrade RB remotely available I'd have added them, but all there is, is Clyne who'd add next to nothing.
except being a young natural RB
He isn't that young and being an actual RB doesn't make him good, certainly not good enough for a team supposedly aiming for the top.
and Valencia is?!
I never said he was, I said that there's no point in buying if you are not upgrading, with Clyne we wouldn't be.
He's just gone 24, that is pretty young. Coleman is 26. Don't know which RB out there are better quality and younger than 24.
It's not that young in the modern game, people talk like he's a upcoming prospect like Shaw or Stones. Coleman would be a better choice yes and I wasn't looking for a younger RB just one that's better than Clyne, however I don't see us paying Everton's extortion fee for Coleman.
wow - you have some strong opinons eh? And act as if they are gospel.
Clyne > Coleman IMO
How do I act as if they are gospel? Just because I don't put IMO on the end of my comments it doesn't mean I don't realize that any view I post is my opinion.
Bring in 5 first team players. Yep. Realistic.
There will almost certainly be 4 if we are to push on.
I'll have a go.
-------------------------------DDG---------------------------
Coleman----Smalling-----Hummels----Shaw
--------------------------Carrick---------------------------
------------------Herrera------Gundogan------------
Di Maria-----------------------------------------Depay
-------------------------Rooney---------------------------
-------------------------------DDG---------------------------
Coleman----Smalling-----Hummels----Shaw
--------------------------Carrick---------------------------
------------------Herrera------Gundogan------------
Di Maria-----------------------------------------Depay
-------------------------Rooney---------------------------
Who have you got on the bench as I presume you have bought a backup for Carrick.
Schneiderlin.
Good, good.
Rooney played off RVP last season. He was not the main striker.
Like yourself, I would rather see Rooney up top, but lets not go on as if Rooney hasn't performed well in a midfield three under Van Gaal this season.
If we're going on what Van Gaal likes, I very much doubt Pereira will play as an 8.
But he's still playing at the highest level at a high intensity. He's actually had more sprints and covered more distance then Sven Bender this season, who's known for his energy.
http://www.bundesliga.com/en/liga/clubs/borussia-dortmund/kader.php
You are really exaggerating to make your point, aren't you? Jog around? I haven't watched many Dortmund games, but I don't see how he'd be getting in the team by jogging around, especially under a Klopp set up. Again, we'd have to see, though.
Also, Van Gaal has not always used a deep lying playmaker. Guess it's what he's got at his disposal, but he has constantly used players like De Jong and Van Bommel as a 6, and whilst they are decent on the ball, they were/are not known for their ball playing abilities.
If you look at his 8's, on the other hand, he likes a player who, as well as having good work rate as you said, has a good passing range too. If you look at the way we play now, the 8 does a lot more dropping and picking up the ball than our 10.
He could possibly do that. Herrera was part of a very good Bilbao side as a 10, but Van Gaal hasn't used him much there that system for some reason.[/QUOTE]
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RvP missed a large chunk of last season though, and as I said playing as a second striker is not the same as playing as a proper AM in a midfield 3, there are aspects required Rooney does not excel at. As for how he's played in midfield this season, he's done a job is what I'd say, but has also been shown to be unsuited to it as anything more than a fill in role.
He has improved his possession and passing and also puts in a lot of work.
Bender has also been well under par this season in terms of what he used to bring, I mean look at Dortmund's season as a whole. I can see the stats mate but I have watched a lot of the games that place the coverage an actual sprints into context, I am not trying just to argue, I am a huge mark for Gundogan, I just think you are expecting a player that doesn't exist in him now, he still has plenty to offer though in a deeper role.
No I'm not exaggerating man, I'll tag @Balu and maybe he can show I'm not seeing things. Dortmund have not played the intense pressing game this season either.
Yes he has used that kind of player there and Schneiderlin can do that, but you are making out like he's limited on the ball and is a mere destroyer which he isn't. However even going off that we could play him like the 2 you mentioned, it's not going to alter my view on Gundogan in the #8 role.
My guess would be because he hasn't got another #8 he trusts do do Herrera's role, more and more it seems he views Fellaini as a more advanced option.
To be honest, I don't think I've seen a lot from Sven Bender this season. He barely played in the 2nd half of the season, was either injured or clearly 2nd choice to Sahin in that holding midfield role. Sahin, Sokratis and Aubamayang are the only Dortmund players who played well in my opinion. Reus was injured all the time. But @Sphaero is probably the better choice to tag for that question.
/edit:
oh you guys are talking about Gündogan. Well, he had a few bright games, but was mostly pretty average in my opinion. But I didn't expect much more from him after such a long season, so we'll have to see what happens next year.
Valdes
Clyne - Hummels - Smalling - Shaw
Carrick
Herrera - Güngogan
Mata ------------------ Bale
Rooney
Clyne - Hummels - Smalling - Shaw
Carrick
Herrera - Güngogan
Mata ------------------ Bale
Rooney
What would your view be on Gundogan's movement now? He looks to me like he's laboured in this aspect, dynamism is not there and he tends to jog a lot, like Pirlo.
If galactico signing put the effort in that ADM and Falcao have then no thank you. Also if we don't get Top4 you can forget about some of these players coming. They will want CL football.