Are you Moyes? How are you so "in" to the kind of system and style he's going to implement here long term?
Thiago Alcantara | Signed for Bayern Munich
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Are you Moyes? How are you so "in" to the kind of system and style he's going to implement here long term?
I don't know, we appointed Moyes because he is supposed to follow our tradition. At Everton there's was never a thiago type of player too, although it's not impossible thiago would blossom under Moyes, there hardly any past evidence to support this view, hence I said there's more uncertainty for him playing for us under Moyes rather than at Barca or Bayern under Guardiola.
Or what you presume to be tabloid gossip.
Christ. Follow our traditions means he cannot tweak the way we played under SAF? Are you serious? Everton and Manchester United are 2 very different entities. As you'd be aware, the kind of resources Moyes had at Everton and what he'l have here will be very different which will impact the way he sets us up. Contrary to your statement, the very reason he's leaving Barca is because of the "uncertainty" in playing time there due to the quality of the CM. Bayern are as good if not better. We on the other hand are a team he's certain to get gametime in as he becomes our 2nd best CM by simply joining the club.
Also, you really undermine the role our CMs have. They arent technically limited 5 yard passers of the ball. Carrick this season should have told you that. If players have the confidence of running with the ball or playing direct crisp through balls etc, we arent going to tell them to not do it and simply lay if off for our wingers given they have the capability to pull it off with acceptable consistency.
There's tabloid gossip that Thiago is renewing with Barca. And also gossip that he will go to Bayern. As you believe everything you read unquestioningly then I guess it must be confusing for you.
Moyes can do anything he want here but can you convince me he could utilize most out of Thiago? Surely based on his past reign at Everton there's nothing evidential to suggest he can. But that's doesn't mean Moyes couldn't utilize other type of players better, he did a great job with Fellani at Everton for example.
Our midfield is more about ball retention, work rate and pass completion (long or short). There's seems no room for flair and specticular stuffs as always. I'd love to see this type of players in our team, but so far Veron, Anderdon and to some extent Kagawa has been failed project.
This!
It's not hard to see why some United fans are consistently disappointed when they take news like this without a verified source as gospel.
How many players of Thiago's skill set and quality has Moyes failed to develop? None. Thing is, he's never had the chance to work with players of such quality so its weird to dismiss his ability to do so. He worked with a young Rooney which is the one name that comes to my mind as a very talented young player and he did a good job with him by all accounts.
Our midfield isnt all about the things you mention either. For all the talk of being a team which does everything through our wingers, that hasnt been the case for some time now. Our play has evolved. There's a definite transition towards a more rounded approach which will go even further with the likes of Kagawa and Thiago if he signs. You only need to look at Carrick last season to understand that "There's seems no room for flair and specticular stuffs as always" is plain ignorance.
Anderson failing had nothing to do with our system. Its his injuries and inconsistency thats the problem. You cannot blame the system if a player's game fluctuates as much as his does. Calling Kagawa a failed project just blows my mind so I wont go into it.
Mate and silva have done Pritty well st city and Chelsea I think it depends entirely on the quality of the player. Anderson has not been good enough to play the role, Kagawa is still in his first season and dint do to bad at all.
It's Kagawa first season here and I can leave that one out, but his unhappiness over his performance last season has been well publicized.
You may still carry this level of optimistism for next season, hopefully with Thiago signing.
Your reason of stating Moyes being capable of utilize Thiago fully can as much apply to 90% of other managers out there so this hasn't really convinced me, but lets see.
Lets hope so, there always the first time in anything. Lets see if the new manager will try something new or different, but I suspect Moyes is more of reserved character who isn't all for wholesale change type of manager.
No mate I don't. You just seem to be one of those who can't appreciate nuance. This is coming from the guy who said "He's going to Bayern" and "all papers are the same". Really all papers are the same? Christ!
He was unhappy because he expects more of himself, specially given how he played at dortmund. He's japanese too and they're humble by nature. But, its understandable as it was his 1st season in a different league and also one where he was injured for a while. He'l definitely get better.
As far as am concerned, I like to give managers or players a chance before judging whether or not they're capable of doing something. It applies to Moyes too. I dont understand why he'd struggle to develop a very talented player.
So is the argument here that, because Thiago is a fairly unique player to us (because from what I've seen he's not really like Veron or Anderson and certainly nothing like Kag), we shouldn't buy him? Or he is at least a risky player?
Surely that makes him an even more perfect candidate to come here, as he's young and cheap (relatively). I could understand the concern if he were 26 and costing £30m+, but there's hardly loads to lose in this deal. Even if he doesn't work out, we would still be able to get our money back in a few years' time due to his CV.
Surely that makes him an even more perfect candidate to come here, as he's young and cheap (relatively). I could understand the concern if he were 26 and costing £30m+, but there's hardly loads to lose in this deal. Even if he doesn't work out, we would still be able to get our money back in a few years' time due to his CV.
Woosh!
I was sort of surprised by your response since you have been definitive of where this transfer saga is headed in the opposite direction.
Like everyone else on this thread, and every journalist and twiter pundit being quoted, I don't know. Maybe he'll end up at United. Maybe he won't. I doubt it. Buts that's just my opinion.
I was sort of surprised by your response since you have been definitive of where this transfer saga is headed in the opposite direction.
He likes the Thiago type of player, as he had him watched before, but he could not afford him, now he can. He must feel like he's in fantasy football land now.
Slowly losing hope but I guess with him being on holiday at the moment, and Moyes starting on Monday, we can expect something to be said about a possible transfer on Monday.
I was sort of surprised by your response since you have been definitive of where this transfer saga is headed in the opposite direction.
Best to ignore charleysurf. He does the same routine for every single transfer, every single year - without fail. Apart from English players, of course.
Ha ha, at least I won't be the one getting the Moyes Out! banners if, gasp, Thiago chooses to stay in Barcelona. There's a strong correlation between the the uber muppets and those who just attack the team in the match day threads.
I didn't advocate that we shouldn't buy him, on the contrary, we should buy him at all cost, based on his talent alone. But there is concern that we may not be able to fully utilize this type of player (flair, skillful and risky type of central midfielder) as they never really blossom in our team in the past, whether it's under Fergie at United or Moyes at Everton.
For Kagawa there's more to case of being humble, as even his former manager at Dortmund expressed his disappointment of his performance at United last season. It's more of case of Kagawa really blossom when the team is playing everything in midfield through him, whereas we rely more on our wingers and forwards to do this type of job. Same case apply for Veron.
You know what, I actually think you're right. But just because muppets are idiots, doesn't mean you need to go into every transfer window seemingly opposed to any transfer that's mooted.
Too skillful for our midfield... Let's buy a couple of cloggers who can punt it up to Fellaini...
I don't think the fact that we've rarely had skilled flair players in the midfield means that we've never wanted them there. In the past we've have been heavily linked with Sneijder, Modric, Xavi, hell, even Dembele probably fits into that category of a midfielder who looks to dribble and attack. It's just we've never been proposed with a realistic chance of actually signing a midfield player who can also dribble the ball well and become involved with the attack so frequently.
Also, Thiago isn't just a central midfielder, he can play in a front 4 as well. If you're basing an opinion of him on Youtube videos, then you're going to see the skills and the goals. But watch him play a full game, and he's a very composed player. He's not constantly making risky passes or doing stepovers in his own half like Lucio is something. He has the ability to take his man on and keep the ball off the defender. He's just a very very good retainer of the ball, especially in tight spaces under pressure, and in my opinion, that's exactly what we need. We often come undone against teams who press us hard. Remember that second half against Southampton? They pressed and we fell to pieces. We lacked even just 1 or 2 players who were confident enough to want the ball in tight areas, and Thiago seems to thrive on that. The boy would be perfect for us.
I don't think the fact that we've rarely had skilled flair players in the midfield means that we've never wanted them there. In the past we've have been heavily linked with Sneijder, Modric, Xavi, hell, even Dembele probably fits into that category of a midfielder who looks to dribble and attack. It's just we've never been proposed with a realistic chance of actually signing a midfield player who can also dribble the ball well and become involved with the attack so frequently.
Also, Thiago isn't just a central midfielder, he can play in a front 4 as well. If you're basing an opinion of him on Youtube videos, then you're going to see the skills and the goals. But watch him play a full game, and he's a very composed player. He's not constantly making risky passes or doing stepovers in his own half like Lucio is something. He has the ability to take his man on and keep the ball off the defender. He's just a very very good retainer of the ball, especially in tight spaces under pressure, and in my opinion, that's exactly what we need. We often come undone against teams who press us hard. Remember that second half against Southampton? They pressed and we fell to pieces. We lacked even just 1 or 2 players who were confident enough to want the ball in tight areas, and Thiago seems to thrive on that. The boy would be perfect for us.
Finally some wisdom and sense in between all twatter and ITK crap.
Perhaps, but is that because (in the comparatively recent future at least) they've always had to adjust their style to suit Scholes'? I would say that Thiago would suit Carrick perfectly in the fact that he contrasts him well like Scholes did.
Young players always carry risk, even ones that look like they can slot in seamlessly. But I'd say that Thiago carries a lot less risk than 99% other young players out there.
And that's what I heard last season when people were saying Kagawa is exactly the the type of midfielders we need in our team. The project is wonderful on its intention, but in real world whether it works well in our team is a different matter. It's not only our style of play under the manager which plays a crucial role, don't forget our current players are more accustomed and program in their mind to our usual wing play, they tend to look for our wingers and brilliant forwards for a breakthrough in attack, and that's exactly the reason Kagawa feel frustrated and complain the lack of pass or trust from his teammates when playing for us.
In what way Veron and Kagawa were/are spectacular players ? I fail to grasp your point there
Kagawa has done very well though. He was injured alot, and in and out of the team. Often I thought he was unfairly subbed when he looked like our best player on the pitch. Very excited about seeing more of him for United. He needs more time on the pitch. The time he did have was very good. Just didn't get enough of it.
You mention our usual wing play, but our wing player was dire last year. If it's broke, fix it, right? Bolster the midfield with creative, dynamic players.
New manager means quite probably a new system, a new approach. It's a fresh start for everyone, and I personally think we'll see us gradually move away from our usual touchline-hugging wing-play, and expect our wide players to rush the box or get involved in the midfield. Just a prediction, but I can't see us relying heavily on wingers when our wingers were our weakest area last season.
When have we ever replaced like with like. We didn't replace Robson. We didn't replace Keane. We won't replace Scholes.
I actually can't imagine a better team for Thiago to play in. We aren't obsessed with keeping the ball, we like having it so we can do something with it. When I heard the rumbles that Barcelona weren't happy with the way Thiago was developing (because he wasn't turning into a Xavi clone) my first reaction was that he'd do better at Madrid.
My reaction when I heard we were in for him was that he'd suit us down to the ground. A Scholes with a dash of the Anderson's, coming from midfield. A Cleverley/Giggs hybrid when he's attacking. Tell him to keep the ball and he can, ask him to make something happen and he'll take risks.
Barcelona have got their full quota of flair players in Messi, Neymar and Iniesta. They (or at least their current coaching team) aren't that excited about having another desequilibrante - this time one playing a deeper role. We would be excited, we need some more magic, the crowd would love him. I am absolutely convinced that we would see the best of him and that in turn he will become a key player in our next team.
Of course if he goes to Bayern or Madrid, I'll agree he's a lazy, ball losing, flash in the pan, training dodger who doesn't obey team tactics
I actually can't imagine a better team for Thiago to play in. We aren't obsessed with keeping the ball, we like having it so we can do something with it. When I heard the rumbles that Barcelona weren't happy with the way Thiago was developing (because he wasn't turning into a Xavi clone) my first reaction was that he'd do better at Madrid.
My reaction when I heard we were in for him was that he'd suit us down to the ground. A Scholes with a dash of the Anderson's, coming from midfield. A Cleverley/Giggs hybrid when he's attacking. Tell him to keep the ball and he can, ask him to make something happen and he'll take risks.
Barcelona have got their full quota of flair players in Messi, Neymar and Iniesta. They (or at least their current coaching team) aren't that excited about having another desequilibrante - this time one playing a deeper role. We would be excited, we need some more magic, the crowd would love him. I am absolutely convinced that we would see the best of him and that in turn he will become a key player in our next team.
Of course if he goes to Bayern or Madrid, I'll agree he's a lazy, ball losing, flash in the pan, training dodger who doesn't obey team tactics
You should read what Klopp said again then. He said he was very disappointed to see kagawa play on the left as he's fantastic playing through the middle. He didnt comment on his performance.
When have we ever replaced like with like. We didn't replace Robson. We didn't replace Keane. We won't replace Scholes.
I actually can't imagine a better team for Thiago to play in. We aren't obsessed with keeping the ball, we like having it so we can do something with it. When I heard the rumbles that Barcelona weren't happy with the way Thiago was developing (because he wasn't turning into a Xavi clone) my first reaction was that he'd do better at Madrid.
My reaction when I heard we were in for him was that he'd suit us down to the ground. A Scholes with a dash of the Anderson's, coming from midfield. A Cleverley/Giggs hybrid when he's attacking. Tell him to keep the ball and he can, ask him to make something happen and he'll take risks.
Barcelona have got their full quota of flair players in Messi, Neymar and Iniesta. They (or at least their current coaching team) aren't that excited about having another desequilibrante - this time one playing a deeper role. We would be excited, we need some more magic, the crowd would love him. I am absolutely convinced that we would see the best of him and that in turn he will become a key player in our next team.
Of course if he goes to Bayern or Madrid, I'll agree he's a lazy, ball losing, flash in the pan, training dodger who doesn't obey team tactics
Exactly. We would let him play with freedom and be our main "advanced playmaker". It would be his Job to try those difficult passes and create things, but also carry a goal scoring threat.
He is just so perfect for what we need it would be massively frustrating if it did not happen.
I don't understand how people are saying that he won't adapt to our style. Probably cause they haven't seen him playing that much.
When he was at Barca he was criticized for not being strictly a tiki taka player and keeping the ball more than the other players. Here he will have that freedom. He's a great passer but he likes to dribble at times and shoot. Imagine Ronaldinho playing as a central midfielder and this if the nearest you can think for Thiago. He will be perfect for us.
When he was at Barca he was criticized for not being strictly a tiki taka player and keeping the ball more than the other players. Here he will have that freedom. He's a great passer but he likes to dribble at times and shoot. Imagine Ronaldinho playing as a central midfielder and this if the nearest you can think for Thiago. He will be perfect for us.
RedRonaldo's points as far as I can decipher them:
So yes, under Ferguson who liked wingers, we developed some of the world's best flair wingers. We also developed the Premier League's best midfielder, the man who Barca's current players apparently watched videos of in the Cantera, Paul Scholes. I'll address your objections to Scholes as proof that skilful central midfielders can excel at United later on.
Meanwhile, we have the issue of some fans thinking 'flair' means 'dribbling'. If the sort of football Carrick has been producing this season is not flair, then it's not a word I have much interest in. Outrageous long passes that had no right to find their target. Delicate one-touch five yard passing moves with the likes of Kagawa, Rooney and Cleverley. Devastating slide-rule through-balls somehow finding paths through multiple ranks of opposition players to put our strikers through on goal. Little roulettes and shuffles to carry the ball - taken off the toes of an opposition attacker - through several attempted tackles and into space. Carrick has been the very definition of the sort of 'flair' that every midfielder aspires to. He, Thiago and Kagawa could not be better suited to one another.
Veron's issues have always been overplayed. He produced some wonderful football with us, but never really had the time to settle in before Chelsea nicked him. Berbatov also did great things with United, winning the golden boot and being instrumental in the 19th title. His skill and flair suited us inside out - what at times caused problems was the slow pace at which he played the game. Thiago plays lightning-fast football, so that won't be a problem.
As for Kagawa, I believe others have already given your point more time than it deserves. A player comes in, starts slowly (mostly thanks to injury) but gets better and better as the season goes on, until for the last couple of months he's one of our best players. How on earth do you get flop from that?! I'd say all the evidence points to him being one of our best players next season.
There is little evidence to support how well Moyes' will suit any United player. He never had an RVP at Everton, a Vidic or a Kagawa or an Evra. Everton are a worse team than United, with much less money and no access to players' of the quality that we can attract. We simply have no idea who he will and won't 'suit'. As to any idea of what style Moyes' will have United playing, we know nothing there either. The idea that coaches moving from team to team (especially from smaller teams to bigger teams) retain their stylistic preferences has been disproven so consistently that it's a truism.
The qualities you have ascribed to our midfield there are the definitive qualities of Barca's much-vaunted system. Teamwork, passing, work rate, ball retention, pass completion. Whether or not you're right about our midfield, if Thiago doesn't suit a team that prioritises those qualities then he's utterly fecked at Barca. Which is clearly not the case.
As for 'Scholes passes the ball around a lot', what do you think Barca's midfielders do? Scholes is perhaps the most Barca-esque midfielder to have played in the Premier League. If you are saying that because Scholes suited us, Thiago won't, then once again you're essentially saying that Thiago won't suit Barcelona either.
I'd argue that the tendency towards risk and flair which Thiago demonstrates makes him potentially more suitable for United than Barca. We as a club do not share Barca's obsessive prioritisation of retaining possession. (It's worth noting that only at Barca would Thiago be seen as anything other than a superb retainer of the ball. If he came here, he'd be our second best possession player after Carrick.) But that streak of flair certainly makes more sense at United than at Barca where, in theory, only Messi and occasionally Iniesta or one of the wingers should need to take risks.
Guardiola has publicly stated that he won't be changing too much about Bayern's winning formula. It's the only approach that makes sense. There is no way he could make Thiago first choice without massively changing Bayern's set-up. Schweinsteiger and Martinez are both incredibly defensively solid, physically robust, and tend to stay deep. Bayern's #10 tends to be an exclusively attacking player, like Muller. And they have just spent a huge amount of money on Gotze who will also challenge for that slot. Thiago doesn't really fit either position, since what makes him so special is that he excels at both aspects of the midfield game. Putting him in either role would severely limit him, and he would probably be less effective than the incumbent players, who suit their roles perfectly.
As for Barca - yes, if he is willing to play a bit-part role for two or three more years then he might eventually replace Xavi. But even that isn't guaranteed. Tito has demonstrated this season that he favours Fabregas, and wants more than anything else to fit Fabregas in as a regular. Fabregas' best football came in the 'Xavi' role at Arsenal. His current more attacking role is likely to be taken over by Neymar. There's every chance that as Xavi withdraws from the starting side Fabregas, not Thiago, will be the one to replace him. Moving to United, who I think we have convincingly proven would suit him, and who have a perfect first XI slot ready and waiting for him to fill, makes far more sense for a 22-year-old who needs and deserves to be aiming for superstardom right now.
So yes, under Ferguson who liked wingers, we developed some of the world's best flair wingers. We also developed the Premier League's best midfielder, the man who Barca's current players apparently watched videos of in the Cantera, Paul Scholes. I'll address your objections to Scholes as proof that skilful central midfielders can excel at United later on.
Meanwhile, we have the issue of some fans thinking 'flair' means 'dribbling'. If the sort of football Carrick has been producing this season is not flair, then it's not a word I have much interest in. Outrageous long passes that had no right to find their target. Delicate one-touch five yard passing moves with the likes of Kagawa, Rooney and Cleverley. Devastating slide-rule through-balls somehow finding paths through multiple ranks of opposition players to put our strikers through on goal. Little roulettes and shuffles to carry the ball - taken off the toes of an opposition attacker - through several attempted tackles and into space. Carrick has been the very definition of the sort of 'flair' that every midfielder aspires to. He, Thiago and Kagawa could not be better suited to one another.
Veron's issues have always been overplayed. He produced some wonderful football with us, but never really had the time to settle in before Chelsea nicked him. Berbatov also did great things with United, winning the golden boot and being instrumental in the 19th title. His skill and flair suited us inside out - what at times caused problems was the slow pace at which he played the game. Thiago plays lightning-fast football, so that won't be a problem.
As for Kagawa, I believe others have already given your point more time than it deserves. A player comes in, starts slowly (mostly thanks to injury) but gets better and better as the season goes on, until for the last couple of months he's one of our best players. How on earth do you get flop from that?! I'd say all the evidence points to him being one of our best players next season.
There is little evidence to support how well Moyes' will suit any United player. He never had an RVP at Everton, a Vidic or a Kagawa or an Evra. Everton are a worse team than United, with much less money and no access to players' of the quality that we can attract. We simply have no idea who he will and won't 'suit'. As to any idea of what style Moyes' will have United playing, we know nothing there either. The idea that coaches moving from team to team (especially from smaller teams to bigger teams) retain their stylistic preferences has been disproven so consistently that it's a truism.
The qualities you have ascribed to our midfield there are the definitive qualities of Barca's much-vaunted system. Teamwork, passing, work rate, ball retention, pass completion. Whether or not you're right about our midfield, if Thiago doesn't suit a team that prioritises those qualities then he's utterly fecked at Barca. Which is clearly not the case.
As for 'Scholes passes the ball around a lot', what do you think Barca's midfielders do? Scholes is perhaps the most Barca-esque midfielder to have played in the Premier League. If you are saying that because Scholes suited us, Thiago won't, then once again you're essentially saying that Thiago won't suit Barcelona either.
I'd argue that the tendency towards risk and flair which Thiago demonstrates makes him potentially more suitable for United than Barca. We as a club do not share Barca's obsessive prioritisation of retaining possession. (It's worth noting that only at Barca would Thiago be seen as anything other than a superb retainer of the ball. If he came here, he'd be our second best possession player after Carrick.) But that streak of flair certainly makes more sense at United than at Barca where, in theory, only Messi and occasionally Iniesta or one of the wingers should need to take risks.
Guardiola has publicly stated that he won't be changing too much about Bayern's winning formula. It's the only approach that makes sense. There is no way he could make Thiago first choice without massively changing Bayern's set-up. Schweinsteiger and Martinez are both incredibly defensively solid, physically robust, and tend to stay deep. Bayern's #10 tends to be an exclusively attacking player, like Muller. And they have just spent a huge amount of money on Gotze who will also challenge for that slot. Thiago doesn't really fit either position, since what makes him so special is that he excels at both aspects of the midfield game. Putting him in either role would severely limit him, and he would probably be less effective than the incumbent players, who suit their roles perfectly.
As for Barca - yes, if he is willing to play a bit-part role for two or three more years then he might eventually replace Xavi. But even that isn't guaranteed. Tito has demonstrated this season that he favours Fabregas, and wants more than anything else to fit Fabregas in as a regular. Fabregas' best football came in the 'Xavi' role at Arsenal. His current more attacking role is likely to be taken over by Neymar. There's every chance that as Xavi withdraws from the starting side Fabregas, not Thiago, will be the one to replace him. Moving to United, who I think we have convincingly proven would suit him, and who have a perfect first XI slot ready and waiting for him to fill, makes far more sense for a 22-year-old who needs and deserves to be aiming for superstardom right now.
We play Kagawa on the wing because we can't utilize him fully in middle, which is exactly my point.
Zizou used to play like that for Real Madrid too, same position, was it because they couldn't fully utilize him too ? Where a player starts doesn't matter as much as the way he's asked to play. Besides we've had Rooney there this season, so it was never gonna happen just like that for Shinji at first
I would regard Thiago is somewhat a cross between Ronaldino and Xavi, Xavi is basically a Scholes in Barca jersey, Thiago share some of their qualities but he also has tendency to take more risk and dribbles. Scholes is the the main orchestrator in our midfield for so many years, he was basically faultless in everything except his trademark tackling. Carrick, on the other hand, was more a good ball interceptor, with good anticipation, good passer of ball and bring good positioning in our midfield. This season he has add more authority in our midfield which has made him such a great player for us. I don't see either Scholes or Carrick being good comparison with young Thiago, who is a risk taker and "likes" to dribble alot. Scholes and Carrick would cut this down in the match (not saying they can't dribble, Scholes has one of the best skills/technique in the game, but he would leave this one to Giggs and Ronaldo as it works better under our system) as they are more concerned on playing for the team in their particular role.
But I agree with everything else you've said. Just that he is from Barca academy and the fact that Guardiola will know how to use him better, makes me wonder that he may blossom more playing for Barca and Bayern in long term.
No news then. Grand.
Weekend.Won't here anything, except for the Sunday rags who will make up some shite.
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