Jesus, if we sign both Strootman and Thiago...
We can finally drop that make weight Carrick!
Thiago Alcantara | Signed for Bayern Munich
- Thread starter Stobzilla
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We can finally drop that make weight Carrick!
Thiago go go
He told bayern its a no
Thiago go go
He showed barca he was boss
18 mill? we dont mind
Hes now wearing number TBA
Thiago go go
He told Bayern its a nooooo
He told bayern its a no
Thiago go go
He showed barca he was boss
18 mill? we dont mind
Hes now wearing number TBA
Thiago go go
He told Bayern its a nooooo
Did I see Garay mentioned there? Strootman and Thiago make a whole lot of sense, but Garay means we then have 6 centre backs. Is that not perhaps too many for 2 positions?
Can't really get behind what that Decap blogger/Tweeter has to say about transfers. He seems to get stuck into gossip and relay it as fact quite often. Couple of years ago he was saying exactly when Sneijder was going to be unveiled, despite our side of things coming out and denying we were ever interested in him. I don't believe he's all that in-the-know.
Hope it's tomorrow we unveil Thiago. I somehow don't think it will be, but I'd love this one to just be all over ans safely wrapped up. Mega rich Chelsea and Guardiola's Bayern make me nervous.
Can't really get behind what that Decap blogger/Tweeter has to say about transfers. He seems to get stuck into gossip and relay it as fact quite often. Couple of years ago he was saying exactly when Sneijder was going to be unveiled, despite our side of things coming out and denying we were ever interested in him. I don't believe he's all that in-the-know.
Hope it's tomorrow we unveil Thiago. I somehow don't think it will be, but I'd love this one to just be all over ans safely wrapped up. Mega rich Chelsea and Guardiola's Bayern make me nervous.
The last line you've bolded would seem incorrect, otherwise this whole story around Thiago is baseless.
I still don't get what people are basing these new developments on. I'm clinging to everything people say in here, but since when were Twitter rumours and newspapers good judges of a situation? They both consist of some of the biggest bullshitters known to man. I've never seen so many lies as I have on Twitter or in a newspaper.
Is it just a case of so many people reporting certain things and that there's no smoke without fire? Or is there anything actually concrete to stuff about Thiago telling Barcelona to feck off? It just strikes me at the moment that about 99% of these developments are built on a whole chain of assumption, contained in which being the supposition that these renowned shit-chatters are actual sources of truth on this matter.
Is it just a case of so many people reporting certain things and that there's no smoke without fire? Or is there anything actually concrete to stuff about Thiago telling Barcelona to feck off? It just strikes me at the moment that about 99% of these developments are built on a whole chain of assumption, contained in which being the supposition that these renowned shit-chatters are actual sources of truth on this matter.
The crucial factor in this whole saga will be what Ballague says when he is next asked about the matter. That will determine the exact outcome....or rather the exact opposite of what he says
I'm gathering Thiago's clause isn't the same as the others though? Every single player in La Liga has a buyout but this clause of Thiago's is due to lack of games. I'm probably wrong but this clause should be different to the normal rule.
I think the only way its different is the fact that we are a foreign club and not a domestic club.
If we sign Garay then I'd guess it's because we expect Vidic/Ferdinand to play less and we don't think Smalling/Jones are quite ready to step up yet. Garay would probably be in the prime of his career right now, wouldn't he? I guess we feel we need to have a few defenders in peak form.
Don't know how that would work practically though, unless Rio/Vidic have serious injury concerns we're unaware of. Are we seriously going to leave them out? Or restrict the amount of games our younger defenders get? Plus, from what I've seen of him, Garay isn't so good as to demand a place in the team.
I think he knows if he is patient he will become Barca main man in midfield in years to come, but the problem is, he is 22 years old and there's a big world cup coming next summer, he just isn't going to replace Xavi, Iniesta or Fabregas anytime sooner. So he is going to make up his mind and join us here, hopefully.
But Martinez had a release clause which Bayern activated and I assume they classify as a foreign club. The 2 passages appear to be contradictory.
It's not even the next World Cup though. The next Euros are three years away. Will he be commanding a starting place in the Barca team at that time or will he still be fighting it out with Cesc? IMO, it could take as long as 4 or 5 years to establish himself as a Barca first team player. At the opposite end of the scale, if he joins United, he will be a starter from day 1 and could be one of the best in world in 4 years time.
If that's the case, why can't Thiago do something similar? Assuming he does want to leave Barca.
Then taxation becomes an issue. Assuming we pay Thiago to buy out the contract then income tax must be payed, resulting in a much larger fee.
Why didn't that happen to Bayern?
Im pretty sure that'd be a last resort if Barça decide to be awkward. My guess is that Thiago and Manchester United would rather keep things as amicable as possible and try to reach an agreement because when it gets to that point his fee raises since he will have to pay tax on the money we give him to buy himself out.
My understanding is that Bayern did not have to have Martinez buy out his own contract. They were able to pay the buy-out 'with his permission', thus avoiding the big tax hit. It's entirely possible that that's the solution which we'll come to with Thiago, too.
It's funny how people seem to lose grip of reality when it comes to transfer fees, suggesting we should 'just' cough up another £10-15m if Barca are going to be difficult.
Whilst he's clearly worth £25+m in the current market, United will account for every penny of the deal and if paying their lawyers an extra, say, £500k will save them £10m, of course they're going to do it.
Now I don't really get involved in finance specifics. It doesn't bother me how much we spend as long as it's well-balanced but even I can see that the first rule in keeping everything rocking over nicely is that every pound spent needs accounting for and justification. We don't (intentionally) throw money away.
Whilst he's clearly worth £25+m in the current market, United will account for every penny of the deal and if paying their lawyers an extra, say, £500k will save them £10m, of course they're going to do it.
Now I don't really get involved in finance specifics. It doesn't bother me how much we spend as long as it's well-balanced but even I can see that the first rule in keeping everything rocking over nicely is that every pound spent needs accounting for and justification. We don't (intentionally) throw money away.
Thanks, I also just re-read jojojo's post on the previous page so it seems there are ways round this and it shouldn't prove a fatal obstacle. If he wants to come here, we'll get him.
The Sid Lowe article is from 2011, before the Martinez transfer established a precedent for foreign transfers and the Rummenige quotes are from before Munich had actually completed the legal process. The final Martinez/Munich/Athletic deal represents the best available case law. They paid the release clause figure - they didn't pay any additional tax.
Chelsea's Juan Mata to Barcelona? The story behind the story
Read more:http://www.talksport.co.uk/magazine/features/130623/chelseas-juan-mata-barcelona-story-behind-story-199984#ixzz2X3rYtf8o
Follow us: @talksport on Twitter
Read more at http://www.talksport.co.uk/magazine/features/130623/chelseas-juan-mata-barcelona-story-behind-story-199984#257zYbWZVb45QhDj.99
Could these two men really be sharing the same dressing room next season? We're not convinced
By Lee Roden | Sunday, June 23, 2013
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It's safe to say that the initial reports of Juan Mata being sold by Chelsea were laughed at by most observers. The Spaniard was the best player at Stamford Bridge by quite some distance last season, pushing on from a strong debut outing for them in 2011/12, so the suggestion that the Blues would now be looking to sell him to Barcelona seemed unfeasible. The tale refuses to go away, however, bouncing back and forth between the eagre Spanish press and the English papers looking for morsels of information from abroad, so what exactly is the logic behind the murmurs? As with many things in Spanish football, the answer could be tied up in club politics.
Links between Mata and Barcelona are nothing new. When the Spaniard was at Valencia, he was constantly spoken of as a future Barcelona player, but in the pivotal summer of 2011 when Valencia finally decided to sell, a move failed to come to fruition, after the Blaugrana opted to sign Alexis Sanchez instead. In hindsight, that probably wasn't the best decision from Barcelona, and Chelsea have been laughing ever since, with Mata producing some of the finest attacking displays in Europe as part of the Blues set-up, and Alexis inconsistent for the Catalans, to say the least.
In those days Mata would have had a clear place in the Barcelona team. Aside from their starting forward line of David Villa, Lionel Messi and Pedro Rodriguez, Barca lacked top quality back-up in the wide positions, and the former Valencia man would have provided stiff competition for Pedro in particular. Better still, he could also deputise in the middle of the pitch, where he is perhaps better suited, for Andres Iniesta, who suffered frequent injury problems during those years. A move was made even more attractive by the fact that Mata knew and had played with the majority of Barcelona's stars as part of the Spain team.
Fast forward to 2013, and it's a slightly different story. Barcelona are no longer quite so understaffed in the aforementioned areas. Big money signing Neymar, promising youngster Cristian Tello, stalwart Pedro and Alexis all contest the wide forward roles. Meanwhile, Thiago Alcantara, Sergi Roberto and Cesc Fabregas all provide an alternative to Iniesta in the middle, so a clear path into the team is difficult to find for the Chelsea man. Even with the possibility that Thiago could leave the Camp Nou this summer, Xavi, Iniesta and Fabregas will all still be expected to play regularly next season, so would a signing of the magnitude of the Chelsea man really be required? That's not even taking young Sergi Roberto into consideration, whose development is on a knife-edge as it stands without a top-class player like Mata to compete with on top of the midfielders currently at Barca.
The real reason for the rumours could perhaps be found in the internal politics at Barcelona. Notably, a large portion of the Mata to Barca stories are emanating from Mundo Deportivo, a paper closely linked with the club's president, Sandro Rosell. The Barcelona boss is currently facing criticism left, right and centre due to the poor handling of Eric Abidal's release, the vast amounts spent on Neymar, and the contractual mess that could see Thiago leave for a mere €18m (£15.3m), so a juicy story on a star signing for Barca is a useful distraction for him in troubled times. Mata fits the bill particularly well as there was a clear interest in him in the past, giving the tale a touch more credibility in the Catalan capital than in London. To make things more interesting, the Mata distraction is also convenient considering the re-emergence of the most successful president in the history of Barcelona, Joan Laporta, who has recently declared his desire to run for election at the club once more. There is no smoke without fire, as they say, but taking the above into account, it's hard not to see these rumours as a controlled blaze with a very clear purpose.
Then there is the major question of why Chelsea would even consider selling in the first place. In Spain, the reasoning provided is very simple: 'Mourinho'. The Chelsea manager's name is a buzzword for evil, dastardly doings and general nastiness in La Liga these days, so it's easy for papers to present him as a man determined to get Mata out of Chelsea against all logic. The Spaniard is said to be 'out of favour' with Mou, though there are few additional details on top of that vague statement, save the suggestion that his performance-related bonuses are to be removed by the coach, who like such incentives. If we are to believe the Spanish press, that's enough for Chelsea to punt their MVP. It's hardly convincing.
What all of this suggests is that the fantastical notion of Mata being sold by Chelsea is exactly just that, fantasy. Given his outstanding performances for the Blues he is arguably more likely to receive a new, improved deal in the near future than be edged out the door. Even if the stories about Mourinho not being keen on certain bonuses in his contract are true, the Portuguese is, after all, a football manager, and knows a world class player when he sees one. While it is true that there have been instances in the past of key figures being shown the door after a strong season, it's hard to see how Mata fits the bill. Take for example Samuel Eto'o, who, aptly, was kicked out of Barcelona after an historic treble-winning season. In those days, the Cameroon international's destructive personality was sighted as the logic for his departure, but destructive is hardly a word we would apply to Juan Mata, who by all accounts is well liked at Chelsea, and has taken to London like a duck to water. Stranger things have happened in football, but on this one, it looks like Chelsea fans can breathe easy.
Links between Mata and Barcelona are nothing new. When the Spaniard was at Valencia, he was constantly spoken of as a future Barcelona player, but in the pivotal summer of 2011 when Valencia finally decided to sell, a move failed to come to fruition, after the Blaugrana opted to sign Alexis Sanchez instead. In hindsight, that probably wasn't the best decision from Barcelona, and Chelsea have been laughing ever since, with Mata producing some of the finest attacking displays in Europe as part of the Blues set-up, and Alexis inconsistent for the Catalans, to say the least.
In those days Mata would have had a clear place in the Barcelona team. Aside from their starting forward line of David Villa, Lionel Messi and Pedro Rodriguez, Barca lacked top quality back-up in the wide positions, and the former Valencia man would have provided stiff competition for Pedro in particular. Better still, he could also deputise in the middle of the pitch, where he is perhaps better suited, for Andres Iniesta, who suffered frequent injury problems during those years. A move was made even more attractive by the fact that Mata knew and had played with the majority of Barcelona's stars as part of the Spain team.
Fast forward to 2013, and it's a slightly different story. Barcelona are no longer quite so understaffed in the aforementioned areas. Big money signing Neymar, promising youngster Cristian Tello, stalwart Pedro and Alexis all contest the wide forward roles. Meanwhile, Thiago Alcantara, Sergi Roberto and Cesc Fabregas all provide an alternative to Iniesta in the middle, so a clear path into the team is difficult to find for the Chelsea man. Even with the possibility that Thiago could leave the Camp Nou this summer, Xavi, Iniesta and Fabregas will all still be expected to play regularly next season, so would a signing of the magnitude of the Chelsea man really be required? That's not even taking young Sergi Roberto into consideration, whose development is on a knife-edge as it stands without a top-class player like Mata to compete with on top of the midfielders currently at Barca.
The real reason for the rumours could perhaps be found in the internal politics at Barcelona. Notably, a large portion of the Mata to Barca stories are emanating from Mundo Deportivo, a paper closely linked with the club's president, Sandro Rosell. The Barcelona boss is currently facing criticism left, right and centre due to the poor handling of Eric Abidal's release, the vast amounts spent on Neymar, and the contractual mess that could see Thiago leave for a mere €18m (£15.3m), so a juicy story on a star signing for Barca is a useful distraction for him in troubled times. Mata fits the bill particularly well as there was a clear interest in him in the past, giving the tale a touch more credibility in the Catalan capital than in London. To make things more interesting, the Mata distraction is also convenient considering the re-emergence of the most successful president in the history of Barcelona, Joan Laporta, who has recently declared his desire to run for election at the club once more. There is no smoke without fire, as they say, but taking the above into account, it's hard not to see these rumours as a controlled blaze with a very clear purpose.
Then there is the major question of why Chelsea would even consider selling in the first place. In Spain, the reasoning provided is very simple: 'Mourinho'. The Chelsea manager's name is a buzzword for evil, dastardly doings and general nastiness in La Liga these days, so it's easy for papers to present him as a man determined to get Mata out of Chelsea against all logic. The Spaniard is said to be 'out of favour' with Mou, though there are few additional details on top of that vague statement, save the suggestion that his performance-related bonuses are to be removed by the coach, who like such incentives. If we are to believe the Spanish press, that's enough for Chelsea to punt their MVP. It's hardly convincing.
What all of this suggests is that the fantastical notion of Mata being sold by Chelsea is exactly just that, fantasy. Given his outstanding performances for the Blues he is arguably more likely to receive a new, improved deal in the near future than be edged out the door. Even if the stories about Mourinho not being keen on certain bonuses in his contract are true, the Portuguese is, after all, a football manager, and knows a world class player when he sees one. While it is true that there have been instances in the past of key figures being shown the door after a strong season, it's hard to see how Mata fits the bill. Take for example Samuel Eto'o, who, aptly, was kicked out of Barcelona after an historic treble-winning season. In those days, the Cameroon international's destructive personality was sighted as the logic for his departure, but destructive is hardly a word we would apply to Juan Mata, who by all accounts is well liked at Chelsea, and has taken to London like a duck to water. Stranger things have happened in football, but on this one, it looks like Chelsea fans can breathe easy.
Read more:http://www.talksport.co.uk/magazine/features/130623/chelseas-juan-mata-barcelona-story-behind-story-199984#ixzz2X3rYtf8o
Follow us: @talksport on Twitter
Read more at http://www.talksport.co.uk/magazine/features/130623/chelseas-juan-mata-barcelona-story-behind-story-199984#257zYbWZVb45QhDj.99
Anyone else skeptical that Thiago has been put on top top wages AND guaranteed to be a starter? It doesn't seem like our style and I doubt Moyes style either
The second part of your post is all wrong. What kind of source is tat from?
I could see him being guaranteed he'll be a starter as he'd pretty much walk into our 11 next to Carrick. I don't think he'd be offered Rooney/RVP top wages but I doubt he'd demand them either
How much is Xavi on then?
I dont know about top wages but would you seriously not start if we got him and you were the manager? He is better than Cleverely, Anderson and Giggs as a central midfielder.
I reckon it's ~90K and he'll be first choice anyway barring fitness etc.
Yeah the guarantee will be along the lines of him being a starter subject to form and fitness.
The reliable Goal.com have said the move is in doubt.
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2892...-of-signing-barcelona-midfielder?ICID=HP_HN_1
sorry if posted.
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2892...-of-signing-barcelona-midfielder?ICID=HP_HN_1
sorry if posted.
I call bullshit.
It's normal that they're doing everything they can to make him stay. Still very confident about this deal.
Even if he has been guaranteed a starting place (which is not really worth anything as if you're playing totally shite, this goes out the window) - what is the big deal, its a verbal agreement if it has indeed even been uttered and it's hardly an outlandish claim to entice a player to join our side which hardly boasts riches in midfield. You say what you need to, in order to attract talent as long as it isn't written into the contract and either way he's easily guaranteed a starting spot looking at the competition for his position in our squad even if he lives up to 50% of the hype.
At Barcelona if he plays well, that's not good enough because if the established midfield trio are all playing well, he won't get a sniff... regardless of how fantastic his cameos are. At United, if he was to play well... he'd be guaranteed a starting spot and no one else would be able to take his place, as he'd be the preferred starting option as long as he was holding his own part of the bargain. This move is still a smokescreen for our real target, Leon Osman.
At Barcelona if he plays well, that's not good enough because if the established midfield trio are all playing well, he won't get a sniff... regardless of how fantastic his cameos are. At United, if he was to play well... he'd be guaranteed a starting spot and no one else would be able to take his place, as he'd be the preferred starting option as long as he was holding his own part of the bargain. This move is still a smokescreen for our real target, Leon Osman.
This is what annoys me about media outlets "reporting" news regarding transfers, each outlet just uses the old scattergun approach where they will break an exclusive about us signing a player then question it in another article to see like they are ahead of the curve when in truth its just rubbish journalism.
I wont believe anything until I see him in a United shirt
The longer it drags out, the more sceptical we seem to get. Possibly because of all the grey areas. We keep hearing Thiago has agreed our terms, so if it's just a matter of us triggering the clause, then what's the hold up. Are Thiago's side still open to hearing what Barca have to say? Is he talking to other clubs? Damn all this uncertainty.
The phrase used by one of the Spanish ITK TV commentators was that he's been told he will start the season in our first XI and that we're buying him for that job. Not unreasonable - he'll take that as meaning it's his place to lose, and I'm sure he's confident enough to believe once he's got it, he won't lose it.
So what shirt number is he going to wear then? 8? 22?
Still have a hard time believing we're going to pull this off. Taking a top talent off one of the Spanish giants seems nuts. Would be brilliant if it happened.
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