Thiago Alcantara | Signed for Bayern Munich

[Fergus' son]

Nah I agree with that part man, it's the certainty that he could play with just Carrick I disagree with. I would love him here though - all the talent in the world like you say.

But it would still leave us open through the centre, defensively he isn't going to solve any issues. When he's played for Barca in that midfield there isn't the same defensive requirements, not even close. Especially with how deep we drop and the fact that we don't have a high press.

I think this would work fine though

-----Carrick-----
--Fellaini--Thiago--

Very good possession wise with Thiago, Carrick and Kagawa on the left, plus Fellaini is no joke with the ball either, yet it still would be tough defensively and hard to play through. With Carrick screening it would allow the other two to press further up the pitch.

The only downside to that three is that Kagawa, or Rooney if he stays, remain stuck on the left which is a bit of a waste.

Yeah, I'm not certain to be fair but I'd be optimistic.

I'm not sure if we need to address the defensive issues in our midfield as much as the creative issues personally, everything you say is spot on but I don't think its a urgent matter trying to make our midfield more solid.

Fabregas, Gundogan or Kroos would be my muppet choice.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Looking forward, I feel a 4-2-3-1 is the best way to go.

Now, if you can incorporate both Kagawa and Thiago into that formation. I'm all for it. But not if you have to sacrifice one for the other.

 

[De Selby]

Yeah, we've won feck all with 4-4-2.

 

[Widnes]

Thiago & Gundogan would do me nicely, won't happen but I can dream.

 

[Fergus' son]

Looking forward, I feel a 4-2-3-1 is the best way to go.

Now, if you can incorporate both Kagawa and Thiago into that formation. I'm all for it. But not if you have to sacrifice one for the other.

I think you can, particularly if you have hard working wingers, like we definitely do.

 

[Brightonian]

Yeah, we've won feck all with 4-4-2.

We haven't played 442 for years. Rooney, as a number 10, does not play as a striker.

 

[Theon]

You mean

---Carrick-----Fellani---
-------Thiago---------

?

No mate, this is what I was going for with Carrick screening the defence, making those interceptions and dictating the play from deep. Then Fellaini and Thiago having the freedom to get further forward to press high up the pitch and support the attack.

Like I said, I'm not advocating this approach because I'd prefer Kagawa to come infield and play as an AM. But this would be a brilliant centre midfield IMO and defensively far more secure than Thiago--Carrick which I'm not convinced on.

 

[BD]

I love Thiago as a player, and I think he'd work well in our 4-4-1-1 system alongside Carrick for the majority of our games. However, against better sides we'd probably have to move Cleverley or another signing in there to make up a midfield three, as he wouldn't offer enough defensively.

Would be a great signing, but Gundogan would be even better

 

[FCBarca]

Yeah, people forget that he's Brazilian. If he were to leave, do you expect his younger brother to step up?

They're different players really, Rafinha has been hyped as being the more talented of the two but I would strongly disagree. Rafinha has yet to really find his best position and in that regard he's more versatile than his older yet more skilled brother. They're a tight knit family and the brothers are very close - he loves the club but if Thiago were to leave, it would likely change things for Rafinha as well. Dos Santos is one of Thiago & Rafinha's best friends and is likely leaving too so would merely leave him with less of the home vibe he has had.

Of course, it's speculative whether Rafinha would want to leave but it certainly wouldn't be the same were Thiago to stay

 

[Brightonian]

I think you can, particularly if you have hard working wingers, like we definitely do.

Agreed. I really don't think there's anything at all wrong with this:

Carrick Thiago
---------------Valencia Kagawa Nani/Rooney/someone
RVP​

In fact, I think it'd be bloody brilliant.

Our lack of defensive solidity in midfield this season (or in the first half of this season, really) wasn't because we played overly attacking midfields. It was because we played people in midfield who weren't midfielders, or weren't good enough. Rooney, Giggs, Kagawa, Jones, and out-of-form-and-fitness Cleverley and Anderson.

The one period where we consistently partnered Carrick with a proper, competent CM - when Cleverley was playing well over the winter - our midfield unit looked decent. And Thiago is essentially just a much better Tom Cleverley.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

I can see this thread going full muppet.

Özil, Sneijder, van Persie, Thiago.

 

[walsh]

I can see this thread going full muppet.

Özil, Sneijder, van Persie, Thiago.

This could give us a 50% success rate?

 

[KiD MoYeS]

They're different players really, Rafinha has been hyped as being the more talented of the two but I would strongly disagree. Rafinha has yet to really find his best position and in that regard he's more versatile than his older yet more skilled brother. They're a tight knit family and the brothers are very close - he loves the club but if Thiago were to leave, it would likely change things for Rafinha as well. Dos Santos is one of Thiago & Rafinha's best friends and is likely leaving too so would merely leave him with less of the home vibe he has had.

Of course, it's speculative whether Rafinha would want to leave but it certainly wouldn't be the same were Thiago to stay

Interesting. Then again look at the season Rafael had at United, with his best friend and twin brother Fabio loaned out. Could make for a coming of age.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

This could give us a 50% success rate?

Following that trend, we've one third a chance of signing him.

 

[FCBarca]

He also said this though - "Thiago is an attacking mid who needs to be playing further up the pitch"

But anyway.. You're comparing different things here. The fact that Thiago might be better than Fabregas playing deeper in Barca's system, doesn't mean the same is true for Arsenal's or United's. Barcelona play such a specific, unique brand of football that making these assumptions isn't accurate.

It's fair to say Fabregas could partner Carrick in a two man midfield, but it's debateable whether Thiago could. He has never played a similar role.

Astute take, from a deeper position, Cesc sees the pitch better and partners well with a holding mid. Defensively, inferior to Thiago but will get stuck in obviously

Cesc can play further up and is obviously a goal minded midfielder but he is less skilled on the ball and cannot play in tight spaces the way Thiago can. Passing wise, it's hard to gauge who is better because both have excellent vision

 

[Theon]

What do you think of a Thiago--Carrick midfield FCBarca?

 

[Fergus' son]

Agreed. I really don't think there's anything at all wrong with this:

Carrick Thiago
---------------Valencia Kagawa Nani/Rooney/someone
RVP​

In fact, I think it'd be bloody brilliant.

Our lack of defensive solidity in midfield this season (or in the first half of this season, really) wasn't because we played overly attacking midfields. It was because we played people in midfield who weren't midfielders, or weren't good enough. Rooney, Giggs, Kagawa, Jones, and out-of-form-and-fitness Cleverley and Anderson.

The one period where we consistently partnered Carrick with a proper, competent CM - when Cleverley was playing well over the winter our midfield unit looked decent. And Thiago is essentially just a much better Tom Cleverley.

I'd like Welbeck on the left, that would more than compensate for Thiago being slightly too attacking in the majority of games IMO.

 

[Sir Matt]

No mate, this is what I was going for with Carrick screening the defence, making those interceptions and dictating the play from deep. Then Fellaini and Thiago having the freedom to get further forward to press high up the pitch and support the attack.

Like I said, I'm not advocating this approach because I'd prefer Kagawa to come infield and play as an AM. But this would be a brilliant centre midfield IMO and defensively far more secure than Thiago--Carrick which I'm not convinced on.

Why would you play Kagawa out of position?

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Why would you play Kagawa out of position?

Spot on, Kagawa in a central position has to take priority next season.

 

[Brightonian]

I'd like Welbeck on the left, that would more than compensate for Thiago being slightly too attacking in the majority of games IMO.

Would work for me, he's really growing on me in that position. Although if Rooney stays I'd have to give him the nod over Danny in our 'best' XI.

 

[Theon]

Why would you play Kagawa out of position?

Did you read my posts?

I said that I would prefer Kagawa to play infield. I've been banging that drum all season.

This was a hypothetical team based around signing Thiago, as I don't think he can play in a two man midfield with just Carrick. Putting Fellaini in there makes the team far more solid and tough to break down.

 

[Maajid]

You didn't address the 1000 pound elephant-in-the-room in that team. VALENCIA!!?

 

[sullydnl]

Did you read my posts?

I said that I would prefer Kagawa to play infield. I've been banging that drum all season.

This was a hypothetical team based around signing Thiago, as I don't think he can play in a two man midfield with just Carrick.

How much of a difference is there really between Carrick-Thiago and Carrick-Cleverly? Not like Cleverly is a beast defensively, certainly not so much so that it'd offset the big leap in quality Thiago has over him.

 

[Theon]

You didn't address the 1000 pound elephant-in-the-room in that team. VALENCIA!!?

Ayee, I was going to put Nani in because I couldn't be arsed with the inevitable backlash. But that wouldn't be what I would do, so Valencia got his place.

I've discussed this elsewhere but that team is very narrow with Nani. Kagawa cuts inside all the time and pretty much plays as a attacking midfielder for large portions of the match.

With Nani on the otherside cutting in as well, it's all too narrow. We don't want to go down the City route of lacking width because it just doesn't work and is counter productive.

Valencia has been dire this season but he offers the most natural width out of any player in the squad - he just stands out there all game. It opens the whole pitch up and stretches the opposition defence. Having two wingers cutting in all the time, especially with the extent to which Kagawa does this, is much easier to defend against.

 

[walsh]

How much of a difference is there really between Carrick-Thiago and Carrick-Cleverly? Not like Cleverly is a beast defensively, certainly not so much so that it'd offset the big leap in quality Thiago has over him.

I'm pretty sure Thiago is actually better defensively than Cleverley.

 

[Brightonian]

You didn't address the 1000 pound elephant-in-the-room in that team. VALENCIA!!?

Because that's a debate that could seriously derail this thread, and who you play in the wide positions doesn't impact on the Thiago discussion really.

 

[Theon]

How much of a difference is there really between Carrick-Thiago and Carrick-Cleverly? Not like Cleverly is a beast defensively, certainly not so much so that it'd offset the big leap in quality Thiago has over him.

*Cleverley

I'm don't think we are a particularly solid team with Cleverley anyway, so it's not a great thing to base any future midfield on.

The point with Thiago is that he doesn't play in a system even remotely similar to the one we play. I mean defensively he is fine for Barca because he has a good press and can make a tackle, but we drop deeper and defend completely differently. That's exacerbated by Thiago needing to play in a two man midfield here, which he has never done

 

[FCBarca]

What do you think of a Thiago--Carrick midfield FCBarca?

You're talking like in United's 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1? I suppose the 4-2-3-1 is more suited to him. The thing is, Thiago is best running/dribbling/attacking at goal - which is normally in the opponents half. The 4-4-2 would be an adjustment. Is he suited to playing deeper ala a box to box? Not ideal, for him, I think.

What sort of formations did Moyes employ at Everton?

 

[KiD MoYeS]

You're talking like in United's 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1? I suppose the 4-2-3-1 is more suited to him. The thing is, Thiago is best running/dribbling/attacking at goal - which is normally in the opponents half. The 4-4-2 would be an adjustment. Is he suited to playing deeper ala a box to box? Not ideal, for him, I think.

What sort of formations did Moyes employ at Everton?

Mainly a 4-4-1-1, which is essentially a 4-2-3-1 at times.

 

[sullydnl]

So, assuming Rooney leaves, instead of:

Cleverly....Carrick

Valencia....Rooney....Kagawa

Rvp​

We'd have:

Thiago....Carrick

Valencia....Kagawa....A.N. Other

RvP​

Hmmm

 

[JakeC]

To suit Thiago it could also be.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

And fanny about with Kagawa out on the wing for another season? I hope not.

 

[Fergus' son]

And fanny about with Kagawa out on the wing for another season? I hope not.

Perhaps only in the big CL or away fixtures in the PL?

Though in that case I'd rather just drop Thiago out of the team altogether and play a winger on the wing.

 

[Nighteyes]

To suit Thiago it could also be.

That looks good on paper. Kagawa will obviously drift inside and not be forced to hug the touchline like some appear to think

 

[Theon]

And fanny about with Kagawa out on the wing for another season? I hope not.

Everyone wants Kagawa to play centrally, but it's about being realistic and creating a formation that suits the whole team. Depending on who we bring in and let leave (i.e. Rooney) Kagawa might not be able to play centrally.

Like I've said personally I'd love him to play there but in a lot of scenarios it isn't going to happen. And in my opinion bringing Thigao in is one of those scenarios.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

That looks good on paper. Kagawa will obviously drift inside and not be forced to hug the touchline like some appear to think

Kagawa has played the majority of the season in that position on the left, and it's been detrimental to his performance.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Everyone wants Kagawa to play centrally, but it's about being realistic and creating a formation that suits the whole team. Depending on who we bring in and let leave (i.e. Rooney) Kagawa might not be able to play centrally.

Like I've said personally I'd love him to play there but in a lot of scenarios it isn't going to happen.

Carrick Thiago
Valencia Kagawa Welbeck​

Assuming we shaft Rooney, and sign Thiago.

 

[Nighteyes]

Kagawa has played the majority of the season in that position on the left, and it's been detrimental to his performance.

He's not being played as a conventional winger who is told to hug the touchline like Valencia is probably told to. When we are attacking he'll be central more often than not.A formation is not set in stone

 

[Theon]

Carrick Thiago
Valencia Kagawa Welbeck​

Assuming we shaft Rooney, and sign Thiago.

Well yeah, that's the one Fergus posted.

But you yourself have doubted whether it's viable, so surely you're aware why others would have similar concerns?

Where's FCBarca? If this lad isn't made out for a midfield two, I don't see the point.

He said he's an attacking midfielder who has, at times, played deeper. So bringing him in would mean developing him to play in a position that isn't his natural one.

We don't really need a young attacking midfielder, we need a central midfielder.

We currently have Kagawa and Rooney to play this position, if he's leaving Barcelona to get more games he won't get them here! Unless he's happy to adapt his game like Anderson.

I don't want another player we've to attempt to mould into a deeper role like Anderson, which hasn't really worked.

We'd pretty much have to sell Rooney to accommodate him here. Otherwise he'd get as much games as he currently gets.

Unless we plan to play him much deeper like we did with Anderson, which didn't really work out.

It's weak defensively and Thiago might not adapt to a two man midfield role with the extra defensive responsibilities that entails. That's the whole issue, which you have hinted at yourself.

Someone like Fellaini coming in and turning it into a three man midfield is significantly stronger and harder to play through, but it means that Kagawa will have to go wide.

 

[Andrew~]

I love how everyone in this thread has basically anointed Fellaini a United player based on no evidence whatsoever.