I'm puzzled about this as well. I imagine our scouting system would have had quite decent info and knowledge about him.
Thiago Alcantara at Bayern
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I'm puzzled about this as well. I imagine our scouting system would have had quite decent info and knowledge about him.
This can't be true surely? Even we were interested in him ffs.Perhaps the key word there is *spin*.
"Oh yeah.... we never wanted ******* really..."
*closes door*
*cries*
All teams do it from time to time.
"Oh yeah.... we never wanted ******* really..."
*closes door*
*cries*
All teams do it from time to time.
The more I think about that article the more it reads as someone protecting Woodward at Moyes' expense.
I can't believe anyone (with "no budget" limits) would turn down Thiago at 20m, and I don't believe Moyes did. I do think Thiago was looking for reassurance that he was going to be a key player - whether soothing words from the new manager face to face (or Skype to Skype) or in the form of another "use me or sell me cheap" release clause in the contract, or maybe both.
It may well be that Moyes felt strongly enough about the principle there that he wouldn't do it just to appease the player despite the risk being low (so you have to sell a benchwarmer cheap, so what). Maybe he didn't know him well enough to make promises and didn't want to start his time as a United manager by lying about it.
So there you go, positive spin, same story revamped to make Moyes sound like a man of integrity than a ditherer.
I can't believe anyone (with "no budget" limits) would turn down Thiago at 20m, and I don't believe Moyes did. I do think Thiago was looking for reassurance that he was going to be a key player - whether soothing words from the new manager face to face (or Skype to Skype) or in the form of another "use me or sell me cheap" release clause in the contract, or maybe both.
It may well be that Moyes felt strongly enough about the principle there that he wouldn't do it just to appease the player despite the risk being low (so you have to sell a benchwarmer cheap, so what). Maybe he didn't know him well enough to make promises and didn't want to start his time as a United manager by lying about it.
So there you go, positive spin, same story revamped to make Moyes sound like a man of integrity than a ditherer.
The more I think about that article the more it reads as someone protecting Woodward at Moyes' expense.
I can't believe anyone (with "no budget" limits) would turn down Thiago at 20m, and I don't believe Moyes did. I do think Thiago was looking for reassurance that he was going to be a key player - whether soothing words from the new manager face to face (or Skype to Skype) or in the form of another "use me or sell me cheap" release clause in the contract, or maybe both.
It may well be that Moyes felt strongly enough about the principle there that he wouldn't do it just to appease the player despite the risk being low (so you have to sell a benchwarmer cheap, so what). Maybe he didn't know him well enough to make promises and didn't want to start his time as a United manager by lying about it.
So there you go, positive spin, same story revamped to make Moyes sound like a man of integrity than a ditherer.
But it's not like our midfield is overflowing with world class talent like Barcelona's is though so reassurance shouldn't have been the deal breaker here at all. He's easily better than both Cleverley and Anderson (and I'm a Cleverley fan), and has the potential to become one of the best in the world so I don't understand why there would justifiably be a reluctance to go for it.
He's is better than both of those two - but Moyes clearly saw the need, or had the inclination to bring in a defensively minded central midfield player to play alongside Carrick - hence the comments he made that United could do with a couple in midfield.
If you accept that, would Thiago have been guaranteed a game? Neither Cleverly or Anderson will be regulars in the "on paper" first XI.
People here really seem to think managing a Premier League team is like playing Football Manager. As if it's as easy as reading a few scout reports that were waiting for him on his desk and then deciding to buy the player because he has 5 star potential. This first summer, it was crucial that Moyes only bought players he was sure of that would fit into his plans. That was always going to be the case and it's understandable. If anyone's to blame, it's Fergie and Gill for leaving Moyes with the task of buying established players who could reinforce the midfield from day one, after ignoring that area for years.
In future transfer windows, we'll see Moyes becoming more ambitious.
In future transfer windows, we'll see Moyes becoming more ambitious.
Why is that crucial? I am pretty sure you'd have been better off if Moyes had bought Thiago without being 100% sure where he would fit him in yet.
Sure as hell beats not having Thiago to fit in.
Yes of course but then we're all a bunch of transfer muppets who've now agreed that Thiago becoming a super star is a certainty. Moyes doesn't have that luxury. He was never going to make a relatively big money transfer without being 100% certain in his first window. And maybe he would've gone in for him after all, but was beaten to it by Pep who already knew everything about the player and acted with more urgency.
Now a club like Manchester United very rarely signs someone that has any kind of professional issues. Rooney's been a bit of a hassle, nothing that could be foreseen though. Tevez was a menace but mostly the players have been utter professionals and problem free and that was because of SAF's policy. Moyes seems to have a similar one. I don't mind it but it does get very frustrating from time to time.
This is what you posted, if thiago doesnt have any of these problems then how is it related to us pulling out of his signing? The reason stated in media is that moyes didnt have enough knowledge about him, either he doesnt trust our scouts reports about his potential/ability which is daft or feels there is a mental issue which only he could see? The reason given for not trying for this transfer makes no sense whatsoever and only potrays moyes and our decision to hire him in a bad light.
Relatively big money? Its 20m pounds, that is no way big money in today's transfer market. Thiago was the definition of a bargain, I would rather the club had just said we tried but it didnt work out due to him choosing pep which would have been understandable.
And lot's of journalists on twitter, early summer, claimed that Moyes had enquired about loaning in Thiago while still at Everton. Oh well, it's time to move on...
It's funny that United seem to think it makes the club look worse for a player to move to the European champions over them, than to have a manager who doesn't watch enough football, dithers and/or can't spot quality footballers..
No, it's not only those two options. Thiago could have some issues, he might not have any. Moyes pulling out suggests he's not 100% and that he likes to be sure before going after someone. Has nothing to do with Thiago himself.
If its actually true that we chose not to sign him then words fail me.
I rather agree with Moyes not trusting the outgoing scouting team's recommendations.
Sensible post alert. Where's the mouth frothing hyperbole? You're doing it wrong.
well .... we never made any bids for him so I guess that means we chose not to buy him.
What actually happened isn't really clear but it makes sense that we'd have first have him agree to join us or make his decision before we go about making offers to Barca, he had a release clause after all and we had all summer to sort that out.
Balague claimed immediately after he signed for Bayern that Moyes had doubts, which was brushed off at the time. I believe he knows Moyes personally.
Fantastic post from Aimu in among a load of shite.
Trusting them and signing a player based mostly on their word is a different thing.
Common sense dictates that if a manager like pep doesnt have any issue with thiago, then most likely he doesnt have any issues or those are minimal. Again, if we have been tracking someone for three years(and knowing how much fergie cared about off the field stuff) you would think we would investigate that. So moyes doesnt trust our scouts reports of someone they have been tracking for three years. Guess this means he wont be signing anyone he himself hasnt intensively researched, wont leave much time to be a manager then.
About a player potential? Maybe although his everton team didnt sign much world class players or potentially world class player but thiago potential is undeniable. So he doesnt trust the scout teams reports about his lifestyle, training ethics,etc? considering we still have rooney it doesnt bother him that much so have no idea what issue he could still have.
Clearly it is NOT about Moyes discrediting the scouts reports it is about Moyes not trusting he has enough knowledge about his own squad.
Moyes didn't think Thiago was good enough to warrant a change of strategy and philosophy based around him. Most probably Moyes knew that buying Thiago would mean we were in the need to constantly play Young and Valencia on each side because Thiago is not better defensively than Anderson.
This means Thiago's greatness would be less valuable for the team than someone who really fits in the team who can allow us to play our best offensive 4.
Moyes didn't think Thiago was good enough to warrant a change of strategy and philosophy based around him. Most probably Moyes knew that buying Thiago would mean we were in the need to constantly play Young and Valencia on each side because Thiago is not better defensively than Anderson.
This means Thiago's greatness would be less valuable for the team than someone who really fits in the team who can allow us to play our best offensive 4.
And Fellaini does? If it's true Moyes didn't fancy Thiago then he's an idiot.
like fly to shit
You must be blind then.
Fellaini fits in perfectly in the team. Whoever we have partnered up with Carrick has been too weak defensively to allow our front 4 creative freedom. Instead we have been forced to pick "our greatest defensive wingers" in all big games instead of picking the best offensive ones.
Young/Valencia/Welbeck/Giggs all played the role of a "defensive winger" last season(and at the start of this). This means that neither Fergie or Moyes trusted in Clevs/Carrick defensively enough to play them with offensive wingers against a great team.
With Fellaini in the team we will pretty much be forced to play with offensively creative wingers as Fellaini will be a holding midfielder. He doesn't have the creativity and passing range to play a huge part in our offense and thus most likely will not.
But how do we know Fellaini is good enough to play that role? He has been playing off the striker at Everton, a team that hasn't beat any of the top four away from home while he has been there. A team that hasn't come across a champions league team besides the aforementioned English ones. If people believe Fellaini will help us close the gap on the Munichs and Barcelonas of this world they base it on no evidence whatsoever. It may happen and if I'll be delighted to be proved wrong, but it probably won't.
I don't think Carrick is weak defensively either, it's our lack of ability to keep possesion that gets us in trouble, especially in Europe. Technically they are a level above us particularly in the centre of the park. It wasn't that long ago that Paul Scholes had to come out of retirement to help us out in that department, and then when we finally spend money on a centre midfielder....we buy Fellaini.
I agree with your points but you have to include that it is rare for us to buy players who do have years of experience in the CL especially in the knock-out stages.
Creative vs Defensive depends on if you want to continue to use Young/Valencia/Giggs as "defensive wingers" or if you prefer to let our offensive quartet loose by solidifying the defense. Personally I think Moyes played Valencia/Young/Giggs in this defensive role to see what he actually needed - was it going to bring us the league/CL if we played with Young/Valencia and got a stronger creative midfielder? I think he reasoned that it was inadequate and it was more important to bring in a defensively minded midfielder which is why he turned Herrera/Fellaini/Khedira.
I think it shows the intent that Moyes changed his mind about the need for a creative one - and instead saw a bigger need in being able to putting more offensive wingers on the pitch at the same time.
Moyes is a pragmatic coach -- has flexibility in his approach to the game. This means he needs a few options.
I suspect this is what Moyes has in mind by bring in Felliani. It frees up Carrick, Cleverly and even Ando to bomb forward. But its only one option that he is looking at and really is more a defensive measure as it really only fixes our current setup.
He would want a midfielder who can create and more mobile/lateral -- thats another option for him.
I agree with you but I think it will be good to leave the next signing until January so we can spot our weakness and fill that hole. We have another 30~ million to spend this season, don't forget that - it means by January we will either have a run of positive results or we will be looking to further strengthen our midfield. I think we could be in a worse situation than this.
My fear is that if we have a run of bad results, Moyes will go back to what he knows best, 'tough to beat' type teams. Players like Kagawa will suffer.
If he has a bad run of results it will most likely be from draws and he won't try to solve too many draws with less creative players. So all in all I feel quite comfortable, he will be forced like all other top club managers to try and win every single game.
Also considering our league-start the defense is looking very solid already.
Felliani is a good choice to shore up the once fragile defence but its going forward I worry.
We don't seem to be able to unlock opposing defences. We used to be able to counterattack at lightning speeds, now its a bit plodding or trundling along. We also had more quile upfront too.
We don't seem to be able to unlock opposing defences. We used to be able to counterattack at lightning speeds, now its a bit plodding or trundling along. We also had more quile upfront too.
The defense was not really that bad, as long as we used Valencia and Young/Giggs. The problem was of course that we had to play 8 defensive outfield players out of 10. Sometimes we even benched Rooney/Kagawa for someone like Welbeck/Giggs which meant we played almost 9/10 players mainly because of their defensive skills.
I mean we can all agree that IF, as it is speculation until it happens, we play Kagawa-Rooney-Nani, Nani-Rooney/Kagawa-Zaha, or Nani-Kagawa/Rooney-Welbeck - then our uninspiring offense is suddenly top notch quality again.
There are no guarantees that Moyes will do that, but it seems like the most likely thing for us to believe at this moment.
I just want sexy football again when we had Saha-Rooney or Ronaldo-Tevez-Rooney again.
I just don't want a Dave Sexton Mrk II in 2013
No, just on their past performance. Baring RVP, who we signed as an established scorer, United's signings in the last few years of Fergie's tenure haven't exactly set the world alight.
I understand that but like RVP, thiago is a star whose potential is known worldwide so you cant exactly deny it. Its not like you need a scout to establish that this player will be a one of the best midfielders in the world barring injury. The only doubt he could have had is about his mentality which again can be document and you could take pep's word on it.
Plus like I said everton havent signed too many stars either so its not like things look like improving in the future.
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