Thiago Alcantara at Bayern

[Nights]

Thiago was a risk for a foreign coach. He stagnated in his team - it was not only the lack of match time - he did not even play very well in this time last season. Too much risk to put in the talent that he was without knowledge of the league - maybe with a question to how he would perform in the EPL.

I can fully understand Moyes with this. Maybe some homegrown players get time - but not foreign talents that cost a big transfer sum...

I don't know how he was a risk. His version of stagnation was that he couldn't get into the team in front of Xavi/Iniesta/Fabregas and wasn't favoured by Tito who funneled the entire team play through Messi. The year prior under Pep, he got significant minutes, which considering his age and the people he was fighting within the squad to get a place from shows how highly regarded he was. Not to mention the fact that Pep wanted him at Bayern, despite their CM riches already. Even "stagnating" as you put it, he would still destroy Cleverley/Fletcher in their current form and would have been a great partner for Carrick. Also, the fact that he's picked for Spain and Mata can't even get into the squad says something.

And I don't know how you can classify his transfer as a "big sum". He release clause was a ridiculously low 25 million Euro, which considering how dire our options are in CM, and how in need of a technical, progressive player there was peanuts. We paid 27 million pound sterling for Fellaini who is a decent player but doesn't have the ceiling Thiago has. We payed virtually that much for Young and Valencia each!

 

[buckooo1978]

Thiago was a risk for a foreign coach. He stagnated in his team - it was not only the lack of match time - he did not even play very well in this time last season. Too much risk to put in the talent that he was without knowledge of the league - maybe with a question to how he would perform in the EPL.

I can fully understand Moyes with this. Maybe some homegrown players get time - but not foreign talents that cost a big transfer sum...

Cost less than Anderson with ability that our chubby Brazilian could only dream of.... Even in the cameo roles Thiago had his talent was there to see - he was superb in the Euros too

For me it was a certainty - I think on here there were very very very few who didn't fancy him

 

[FCBarca]

In a midfield with Iniesta & Cesc, guess who was the anonymous one for the evening? Painful to see him playing with his Barcelona teammates last night, Rosell's legacy lives on.

Incidentally, based on current form, still think Spain look the team to beat - they are extremely deep and skilled pretty much everywhere on the pitch. Argentina remain Messi, Kun & Di Maria with little else while Brasil are primarily the Neymar show and Germany were fortunate not to lose to Chile

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Thiago was a risk for a foreign coach. He stagnated in his team - it was not only the lack of match time - he did not even play very well in this time last season. Too much risk to put in the talent that he was without knowledge of the league - maybe with a question to how he would perform in the EPL.

I can fully understand Moyes with this. Maybe some homegrown players get time - but not foreign talents that cost a big transfer sum...

That's silly. 18 million for one of the best talents is great value for money no matter which way one spins it.

 

[kps88]

We would have been mental to turn him down. I can only assume he chose Pep over us and we said we were never interested anyway to save face.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I am not sure how many watch him a lot, but what makes those touches and passing percentages so damn impressive is that he is not just a tiki-taka player who racks up passing/touch stats.

He is one of the most complete central midfield talents I have ever seen. His range of passing extends to both long and short inch accurate cross-field passes and through-balls which is impressive for someone who is a student of the tiki-taka short-passing style.

His dribbling is world-class as well, only Iniesta(when he plays there) has a similar dribbling ability of the central midfielders around today? Double checked his stats to confirm this too and he has the fifth highest successful dribbles per game in Europe.(above Messi)

Skill-wise he has it all to become one of the better central midfielders in history. Now he just has to continue developing and making smart career choices.

Defensively and inspirationally/leadership wise he can still improve.

 

[Ish]

I think once Pep entered the race, no matter who was in for Thiago, he was only going there.

But it's mind boggling if it's true that we weren't even interested. Seriously mind boggling.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I am not sure how many watch him a lot, but what makes those touches and passing percentages so damn impressive is that he is not just a tiki-taka player who racks up passing/touch stats.

He is one of the most complete central midfield talents I have ever seen. His range of passing extends to both long and short inch accurate cross-field passes and through-balls which is impressive for someone who is a student of the tiki-taka short-passing style.

His dribbling is world-class as well, only Iniesta(when he plays there) has a similar dribbling ability of the central midfielders around today? Double checked his stats to confirm this too and he has the fifth highest successful dribbles per game in Europe.(above Messi)

Skill-wise he has it all to become one of the better central midfielders in history. Now he just has to continue developing and making smart career choices.

Defensively and inspirationally/leadership wise he can still improve.

Not all that complete then, right? A complete player would be someone who can defend as well as attack, like his team mate, Schweignstigher?

 

[Annahnomoss]

Not all that complete then, right? A complete player would be someone who can defend as well as attack, like his team mate, Schweignstigher?

Thiago is no defensive liability by any means - considering the rest of his skill set being so broad I consider him complete. You make it sound as if he is poor defensively when he is better than average at it.

He often plays as a lone CM/DM behind four AM's/Wingers and manages to keep his team solid defensively too. He has the second highest interceptions in Bayern Munich and the most tackles per game.

I am not saying he is world-class defensively - like the stats suggests that he is. But he is far from a slouch defensively who lives on his offense.

 

[Mauzindark]

Thiago's defensive work-rate is hugely under-rated IMO. He's more of an intelligent organiser like Pep than a bustling boots to opposition shins kind of player. Most casual watchers assume he's shit defensively due to his diminutive stature. The way Barcelona and now Bayern play the whole team contributes defensively so he may not look that great individually. Still he has one of the top defensive stats at Bayern and like what 6 tackles yesterday against Italy ? Impressive. TC23 jog on now.

 

[Revan]

In a midfield with Iniesta & Cesc, guess who was the anonymous one for the evening? Painful to see him playing with his Barcelona teammates last night, Rosell's legacy lives on.

Incidentally, based on current form, still think Spain look the team to beat - they are extremely deep and skilled pretty much everywhere on the pitch. Argentina remain Messi, Kun & Di Maria with little else while Brasil are primarily the Neymar show and Germany were fortunate not to lose to Chile

I said in the summer (when we apparently were trying to sign him and Cesc) that even for the same money I would prefer him instead of Cesc. He is already as good as Cesc (or almost as good) and I will be really surprised if he doesn't achieve Xavi/Iniesta level, both of them players who are a level above Cesc.

 

[Balu]

Not all that complete then, right? A complete player would be someone who can defend as well as attack, like his team mate, Schweignstigher?

You could argue that all of our CMs are 'complete'. Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Kroos and Thiago all offer a lot in defense and going forward. You could say it's a constant rotating 3 man midfield when 3 of them play. They all have started as the defensive pivot in that midfield triangle this season, but also as one of the 2 more attacking CMs. Martinez is arguably the one who isn't as complete, but superior defensively. He hasn't found his place in the team yet, and is used in several different roles so far.

What's also interesting, usually only one of them is running the show while the others work for him. The moment, the opposing team targets one of them because they believe he's the pivot, we just change it. That's why we had games in which Thiago had ridiculous passing stats or scored crucial goals, but then you see Kroos against Arsenal or Lahm against City doing the same. You simply can't say who's the most important player in that midfield, or the most complete.

 

[Ish]

You could argue that all of our CMs are 'complete'. Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Kroos and Thiago all offer a lot in defense and going forward. You could say it's a constant rotating 3 man midfield when 3 of them play. They all have started as the defensive pivot in that midfield triangle this season, but also as one of the 2 more attacking CMs. Martinez is arguably the one who isn't as complete, but superior defensively. He hasn't found his place in the team yet, and is used in several different roles so far.

What's also interesting, usually only one of them is running the show while the others work for him. The moment, the opposing team targets one of them because they believe he's the pivot, we just change it. That's why we had games in which Thiago had ridiculous passing stats or scored crucial goals, but then you see Kroos against Arsenal or Lahm against City doing the same. You simply can't say who's the most important player in that midfield, or the most complete.

The Guardiola effect

 

[Vato]

He was excellent yesterday, great footballer and will become very important for Spain in the future. Martinez was brilliant as CB too, could make that spot his own ahead of Pique.

Shame Jese didn't make an appearance though.

 

[Eric'sCollar]

Have really enjoyed watching him this season. Doing very well.

 

[strongwalker]

The Guardiola effect

Foundation laid by van Gaal, refined by Heynckes, brought to (current) perfection by Pep, more like.

 

[Rozay]

Ferguson said he was only 'on par' with Cleverley and Welbeck. Add him to the list of transfer market screw-ups of recent times.

We somehow ended up with Kagawa, Cleverley, Welbeck and Zaha coming in as opposed to Pogba, Hazard, Thiago and Ravel. Of course, sometimes these things work out alright. I'm still gutted we didn't get to witness Ronaldinho here, but then we went and got Ronaldo and he was brilliant. Things haven't worked out similarly so far yet.

I think it's fair to say we'd be the best team in the premier league if we had a bit more luck with some of our recent transfer moves. I also reckon a lot of it was down to the odd few million here and there, and considering what has been wasted on dross to compensate, would have still worked out okay.

 

[Ish]

Foundation laid by van Gaal, refined by Heynckes, brought to (current) perfection by Pep, more like.

Yeah, without question. I think Pep's brought a kind of unpredictability to the side - a variation which is a bit more pleasing on the eye and which was missing from the Heynckes team (as close to a perfectly oiled machine as that one was).

It speaks volumes of Pep though, being able to take the almost "flawless" team and make them arguably even better. I could obvioulsy be giving him too much credit as well.

 

[Balu]

I think Guardiola deserves a lot of credit for the way our midfield plays at the moment, it's very different to the Schweinsteiger+Martinez midfield of last season, which most considered to be our biggest strength. Before the season started, there was so much talk about Guardiola possibly fecking up the team by playing Martinez in defense, ripping that midfield apart to force his style on the team. Well he did it, he had to because both Martinez and Schweinsteiger were out injured for months, hardly played together at all, but the team looks even stronger now. That's very impressive coaching, imo.

Both van Gaal and Heynckes deserve a lot of credit for the development of the team as a unit, for the players individually and their tactical knowledge and Pep makes good use of all of it. But that midfield triangle is all Pep, imo. There were no signs that van Gaal or Heynckes wanted to play in a similar way.

 

[Snipers Breath]

You can't say hes perfected it they go on and win the CL

 

[Ish]

I think Guardiola deserves a lot of credit for the way our midfield plays at the moment, it's very different to the Schweinsteiger+Martinez midfield of last season, which most considered to be our biggest strength. Before the season started, there was so much talk about Guardiola possibly fecking up the team by playing Martinez in defense, ripping that midfield apart to force his style on the team. Well he did it, he had to because both Martinez and Schweinsteiger were out injured for months, hardly played together at all, but the team looks even stronger now. That's very impressive coaching, imo.

Both van Gaal and Heynckes deserve a lot of credit for the development of the team as a unit, for the players individually and their tactical knowledge and Pep makes good use of all of it. But that midfield triangle is all Pep, imo. There were no signs that van Gaal or Heynckes wanted to play in a similar way.

Yeah, that's what I thought. It's a rare quality. Only the very top bracket of managers can take an almost perfect team and kind of make them even better.

You can't say hes perfected it they go on and win the CL

Agreed to an extent. IMO, the UCL requires a lot of luck to win it as well. Bayern must be favourites and atm, I can't see anyone knocking them out of the competition, but all it takes is a lucky offside flag, a slip or something against a Madrid, Barca, PSG and it's all over.

 

[Balu]

We could play better football despite being less successful. A lot can happen in one game. Other teams look significantly stronger than last season as well, PSG and Real are definitely more capable of beating us than they were last season.

Whatever happens this season, it's way too early to talk about perfection. I'm pretty sure we'll see more changes in the next 2-3 years and then we should look at what Pep achieved at the club, it should give us a better idea when the team peaked.

 

[Ish]

We could play better football despite being less successful. A lot can happen in one game. Other teams look significantly stronger than last season as well, PSG and Real are definitely more capable of beating us than they were last season.

Whatever happens this season, it's way too early to talk about perfection. I'm pretty sure we'll see more changes in the next 2-3 years and then we should look at what Pep achieved at the club, it should give us a better idea when the team peaked.

Yeah definitely.

 

[B20]

Thiago was a risk for a foreign coach. He stagnated in his team - it was not only the lack of match time - he did not even play very well in this time last season. Too much risk to put in the talent that he was without knowledge of the league - maybe with a question to how he would perform in the EPL.

I can fully understand Moyes with this. Maybe some homegrown players get time - but not foreign talents that cost a big transfer sum...

Yeah. 27m for Fellaini was a safe investment.

 

[Mauzindark]

Yeah. 27m for Fellaini was a safe investment.

I would laugh if it wasn't so sad and painful.

 

[Pippa]

Thiago is no defensive liability by any means - considering the rest of his skill set being so broad I consider him complete. You make it sound as if he is poor defensively when he is better than average at it.

He often plays as a lone CM/DM behind four AM's/Wingers and manages to keep his team solid defensively too. He has the second highest interceptions in Bayern Munich and the most tackles per game.

I am not saying he is world-class defensively - like the stats suggests that he is. But he is far from a slouch defensively who lives on his offense.

You will never be able to quantify how good someone is defensively based on stats. Lahm is comfortably Bayern's best defender and I wouldn't be surprised if he managed 1 tackle per match. You rarely see him make tackles or foul opponents because that's not how he defends -- and it's why he is so highly rated. It's his impact on the pitch that makes him so good defensively and how he commands space and time on the ball for someone so small.

It's not difficult to keep Bayern solid defensively in Bundesliga matches, they stroll through them. And it's not he who does it anyways, because it's not in his nature to play a role like that, because he is too vertical to play as a lone #6. It was the same criticism that was held at the beginning of the season -- why Guardiola insisted on playing Thiago as the #6 -- and it would still be a criticism if he continued to play that role. You can only look to how Dortmund eviscerated Bayern in the Supercup to see the difference between Lahm and Thiago.

He doesn't play as the deepest midfielder either. Either further up the pitch or deeper with Lahm, a real holding midfielder. I think that Guardiola has moved more towards a 4-2-3-1 over the past couple of months, it looks like that quite a bit IMO. Thiago is average defensively, I'd go as far as to say he is below average. He looks good because the way Bayern play limits the vast, vast majority of threats but when he is confronted with them he isn't anything special. I've seen absolutely nothing from him that suggests he is suitable as a #6 when it matters. And that's why I am certain Guardiola won't experiment with him that deep anymore, again, when it matters.

He's great, has samba written all over him, but he has his limits and he's not as complete as someone like Pogba, who is only two years younger than him.

 

[SATA]

Fresh memories of the Thiago thread in the transfer forum last June and i remembered waking up in the middle of the night checking for updates. Following him in the U21 euros, declaring he will announce his next move after it, the euros ended with him being the best player, he decided to go on holiday to think about it, meanwhile De Gea wrote on a ball 'See you in Manchester' and gave it to him, a fan had him signed a United shirt and what else had i missed. All was so promising until fecking Pep Guardiola had to show up

 

[Jaap]

...until Moyes was appointed and took too long otherwise he'd have ended up signing for Manchester United.

 

[Balu]

You can only look to how Dortmund eviscerated Bayern in the Supercup to see the difference between Lahm and Thiago.

Come on, that game means nothing. It was a glorified friendly during pre-season, we had lots of injuries, no one understood Guardiola's new system yet and we faced a strong and highly motivated Dortmund team. Thiago wasn't even that bad. Most of the criticism towards Thiago in that role during pre-season was pointed at Guardiola changing too much in general, not really about the player and that he struggled. He started only one competitive game early in the season in which he then got injured after 60 minutes and missed the next three months, so I don't understand what you mean by saying "Guardiola insisted on playing Thiago as the #6". If I remember correctly, he only played that position once after the supercup and it was in our 7-0 away win against Bremen, which doesn't prove a lot either.

 

[Pippa]

Come on, that game means nothing. It was a glorified friendly during pre-season, we had lots of injuries, no one understood Guardiola's new system yet and we faced a strong and highly motivated Dortmund team. Thiago wasn't even that bad. Most of the criticism towards Thiago in that role during pre-season was pointed at Guardiola changing too much in general, not really about the player and that he struggled. He started only one competitive game early in the season in which he then got injured after 60 minutes and missed the next three months, so I don't understand what you mean by saying "Guardiola insisted on playing Thiago as the #6". If I remember correctly, he only played that position once after the supercup and it was in our 7-0 away win against Bremen, which doesn't prove a lot either.

It's only a glorified friendly if you don't win it; I am sure that Bayern fans had "sextuple" on their minds at the start of the season. The match wasn't played as a friendly either. Thiago struggled defensively, a lot really. You can blame it on inexperience, injuries, etc. but against an attacking side he was awful in defence. But he managed to help create offensive opportunities including a great over-the-top ball to Robben (or Müller) who missed a sitter.

Guardiola did insist on using Thiago as the #6 in the 4-3-3, changing the system from the very successful ouble-pivot. Martínez was on the bench for multiple pre-season matches I believe, and this was before Gustavo was transferred (if it matters). Funnily enough Lahm was scoring regularly from the #8 role at the time. But it is true, a lot of the criticism was towards Guardiola at the time. I don't doubt that, it was probably to balance out the "Pep-mania" from earlier.

I don't see him as a complete midfielder, rather someone more suited further up the pitch. In terms of his style he reminds me a bit of David Silva, but he isn't as incisive of a passer yet. The ball sticks to his feet, he keeps control of the ball and tends to drift deeper to join build-up. He'll develop some abilities over time but he's clearly geared to play in a vertical and offensive style.

 

[Balu]

It's only a glorified friendly if you don't win it; I am sure that Bayern fans had "sextuple" on their minds at the start of the season. The match wasn't played as a friendly either.

Called it a glorified friendly the year before as well, and then it was actually quite important because we beat Dortmund for the first time in more than 2 years after being humiliated in the cup final 2 months earlier. Sure winning the 'sextuple' would have been great, but Guardiola didn't even play our strongest XI at that time, it all felt rather strange and it was mainly Dortmund's intensity that dragged us into the game. We wanted to win, of course, but it was obvious that the game came way too early and Guardiola changed way too much for us to be perform well. We needed a few more weeks and no one really gave a shit after the loss.

I don't disagree with you in general by the way. I prefer Thiago in the more attacking CM role as well and expect Schweinsteiger, Martinez or Lahm to play the #6 in that 4141. We also used a 4231 a few times in recent games, don't think it worked better than the 4141 though. But I also believe you are a bit harsh on Thiago's defensive contribution, it's way better than you make it sound.

 

[kouroux]

Great talent and with the potential to become one of the top 5 best players in the world.

 

[Bazi]

Both van Gaal and Heynckes deserve a lot of credit for the development of the team as a unit, for the players individually and their tactical knowledge and Pep makes good use of all of it. But that midfield triangle is all Pep, imo. There were no signs that van Gaal or Heynckes wanted to play in a similar way.

It is hard to say what Luis van Gaal would or could have done in the end. His squad was significantly weaker after all and he's known as a coach who lined-up many different types of formations / systems throughout his career. I could have definitely envisioned him using Müller as a CF eventually to add another real midfielder to the mix. It was all about quick ball movement with him so it's not too far fetched considering Van Gaal saw Kroos on the #8 from the very beginning.

For me Luis van Gaal was closer to Guardiola in many things but he simply didn't have the player material for his football. His stubbornness and dogmatism didn't help the matter much. Heynckes was the realist who tuned down the extremes and took three steps back in 2011/12, away from total football but without giving up on possession football. Just more defensively. He took another step forward in 2012/13 and now in 13/14 it's Guardiola, with a vastly improved and much more technical squad, who's leading the team back to where the Dutchman envisioned Bayern already in 10/11.

I wonder what kind of football Heynckes could have played in 2011/12, if the board hadn't screwed up the Vidal transfer over pennies and dimes.

 

[Pippa]

Called it a glorified friendly the year before as well, and then it was actually quite important because we beat Dortmund for the first time in more than 2 years after being humiliated in the cup final 2 months earlier. Sure winning the 'sextuple' would have been great, but Guardiola didn't even play our strongest XI at that time, it all felt rather strange and it was mainly Dortmund's intensity that dragged us into the game. We wanted to win, of course, but it was obvious that the game came way too early and Guardiola changed way too much for us to be perform well. We needed a few more weeks and no one really gave a shit after the loss.

I don't disagree with you in general by the way. I prefer Thiago in the more attacking CM role as well and expect Schweinsteiger, Martinez or Lahm to play the #6 in that 4141. We also used a 4231 a few times in recent games, don't think it worked better than the 4141 though. But I also believe you are a bit harsh on Thiago's defensive contribution, it's way better than you make it sound.

Well, I guess it's only worth something if you want to make it worth something. You know, at the time it very much looked like Dortmund were making a statement, a couple of months after Götze's transfer to Bayern and the Lewandowski talks. The game did come too soon, but what was very clear was that Thiago is not suitable as the lone holding midfielder against top teams. He made several mistakes with the ball in deep positions, was continually out of position, and made the error for the 4th goal. Dortmund's goals were fortunate but their dominance through the middle of the pitch was obvious.

I'm certain Guardiola won't play Thiago as the lone midfielder in a match of significance. Whether he does so against the likes of Stuttgart, Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg, etc is fair game because Bayern will dominate them easily. I'd like to see him in that role in the CL, against the top-tier teams before I say he is decent defensively. You'll judge him differently I bet, but it's no problem to me.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Pippa the argument has gone from "Thiago is below average defensively" to "Thiago won't be played in the best side in the world in the defensive midfield role against the best teams in Europe.".

I am not sure anybody but yourself brought up the argument about him being able to be one of the worlds best DM's.

 

[Pippa]

He's not a DM, though? And I've never said he will be one of the world's best defensive midfielders. He's nothing special defensively but it doesn't show up when Bayern annihilate about 90, 95% of the teams they face. He's played in the holding midfield role a handful of times for Bayern, only a couple in competitive matches and in the only real test he has faced, he struggled tremendously. Because he isn't good enough for that role.

At the U21 European Championships, Spain essentially walked through the tournament. That doesn't change the fact that once Koke was brought into the lineup to give Thiago more freedom, his performances improved vastly in the knockout stages. Isco was the star of the group stages -- especially against Russia and the Netherlands -- but Thiago stepped up in the knock-out stages when Isco was shifted wide and Koke played with Illarramendi in the centre.

With Barcelona, he was regularly being called the "next Xavi", praising his skill with the ball but the Xavi comparison was off. Xavi, whilst not being a good defender, is intelligent and has the experience to play deeper on the field. Thiago never showed that same tendency, but it can be forgiven because he was what, 20 years old when he was getting his first playing time? Stats can't claim that a footballer is world-class defensively, and that awful dribbling statistic that Opta has is utterly dominated by Bundesliga players.

Thiago is way too risky to play as the #6 in significant matches. He tends to play more aggressively than needed and gives up sloppy passes that would be put to good use by the opposition, if they could do something against the Bayern juggernaut. The difference between him and Lahm in that role is night and day; Lahm's movement drifts him in between the central defenders, something that was evident against Dortmund and Manchester City this season. Not only does this provide him with the safe passing options that he regularly takes, it allows for a more balanced approach in midfield and defensively. Thiago drifts from side-to-side, moves forward, natural movements for an attack-minded midfielder. His samba style leads him to dribble, something you don't want from a holding midfielder. But it's natural to him because he excels when given more creative freedom.

 

[strongwalker]

I think Guardiola deserves a lot of credit for the way our midfield plays at the moment, it's very different to the Schweinsteiger+Martinez midfield of last season, which most considered to be our biggest strength. Before the season started, there was so much talk about Guardiola possibly fecking up the team by playing Martinez in defense, ripping that midfield apart to force his style on the team. Well he did it, he had to because both Martinez and Schweinsteiger were out injured for months, hardly played together at all, but the team looks even stronger now. That's very impressive coaching, imo.

Both van Gaal and Heynckes deserve a lot of credit for the development of the team as a unit, for the players individually and their tactical knowledge and Pep makes good use of all of it. But that midfield triangle is all Pep, imo. There were no signs that van Gaal or Heynckes wanted to play in a similar way.

I agree. In hindsight, Heynckes put a lot of emphasis on the defensive midfield work and sacrificed one position more upfront for that. This resulted in a phenomenally stabile defense but the offensive midfield and attack could be outnumbered and made blunt by determined teams. Pep is more willing to take the risk of pushing the fullbacks up the field and creating surprise elements by a lot of position switching - the latter of which van Gaal discouraged.
He also enhanced the lightning fast changing of tempo the second a vertical passing opportunity occurs, which was a weapon under Heynckes, but is downright lethal at the moment. Don't know if that is part of a plan or just the result of the players in those positions doing it for the 3rd year together now, with the injection of new skill like Götze and Thiago.
The basis for this is, as you say, the technical skills and rock solid passing that van Gaal started to develop. But van Gaal didn't really care much about defense tactics, as the players confirmed after he left, something which can't be said about Pep, who *has* a plan about how defense should work, although a quite risky one. Well, it worked out so far, we'll see what happens when the heavyweights arrive in the Arena.

 

[Balu]

He's played in the holding midfield role a handful of times for Bayern, only a couple in competitive matches and in the only real test he has faced, he struggled tremendously. Because he isn't good enough for that role.

Schweinsteiger had equally bad games against Klopp's Dortmund, still don't get why you believe that game proves anything. Thiago joined the club a week before that game, I'm not sure if he played more than one pre-season game before that supercup, if any at all. New teammates, new language, one week in a new country, a team full of injured players and he needs to fulfill a fecking difficult role, he rarely played before in his career? That game really proves nothing.

Thiago is way too risky to play as the #6 in significant matches. He tends to play more aggressively than needed and gives up sloppy passes that would be put to good use by the opposition, if they could do something against the Bayern juggernaut. The difference between him and Lahm in that role is night and day; Lahm's movement drifts him in between the central defenders, something that was evident against Dortmund and Manchester City this season. Not only does this provide him with the safe passing options that he regularly takes, it allows for a more balanced approach in midfield and defensively. Thiago drifts from side-to-side, moves forward, natural movements for an attack-minded midfielder. His samba style leads him to dribble, something you don't want from a holding midfielder. But it's natural to him because he excels when given more creative freedom.

I agree with all of that. That's why he complements Kroos so well, who arguably often plays it too safe. Thiago is way more adventurous in his passing, way too direct and doesn't control the pace of the game well enough for the deeper midfield role. That doesn't change that he contributes defensively, he plays pressing, tackles, intercepts passes quite a lot. I don't need stats to know that, it's obvious when you watch him play. I don't think anyone argued that he's perfect for the #6 role? @Annahnomoss originally called him one of the most complete central midfield talents he has ever seen. His decision making needs to improve, he's not mature enough yet, but it's all there for the future.

 

[Pippa]

In 2010-11 he was awful against Dortmund, Sahin did used to make a mockery of him. But I'd put that on the side of him being quite poor for most of the season, nothing like how he was in 2009-10 and 2011-12 before his injury. The level he played at post-injury in 2011-12 was IMO much below the level he was at earlier in the season. I don't think he even recovered from that injury either, I remember reading about how he played through an injury at the EURO, I think.

But I don't see it as indicative of his defensive capabilities. He was decent during the van Gaal period, got noticeably better under Heynckes. His style of play is not anything like Thiago, because he has about half the mobility and a quarter of the dribbling technique. I just find it funny, how Thiago can play so well in a deeper midfield position role against Hamburg earlier in the pre-season, and about a week later be humiliated by Dortmund. Maybe I am taking too much out of that single game, but I've seen nothing else that convinces me that he is good defensively.

He has the energy, the tenacity, the willingness to learn. He provides an extreme direct threat -- really on another level to the rest of Bayern's midfielders -- and I think that would be the major issue with him playing as a #6 in big matches. Annahnomoss said something along the lines of Thiago's stats showing he is world-class defensively, and that he is above-average on the pitch. I don't see him as a complete midfielder, maybe as a complete #10 or so, but I don't think he is good enough defensively. Two-way threats like Pogba are what I see as complete midfielders. Thiago's not a specialist midfielder like Verratti, but they both have incredible talent to do so well as a #10 and as a deep playmaker.

I could very well be wrong by the end of the season, but I do watch every Bayern match and I'm interested in seeing how they develop over the next season or two.

 

[Gladiator]

I think once Pep entered the race, no matter who was in for Thiago, he was only going there.

But it's mind boggling if it's true that we weren't even interested. Seriously mind boggling.

pretty sure we were interested but perhaps we wanted to cover our tracks and make it seem like fabregas was our only main target at the time. it was bizarre though because shortly after bayern announced their acquisition of thiago, we bid for fabregas...coincidence?