Thiago Alc*ntara | Retires

Hes never looked this bad though.
Even people that didn't rate him couldn't have imagined this start.

There's still a top quality player in there somewhere
I always thought he was a quality player and have followed him since before he scored a blinder against us in America for Barca. I’ve followed him for at least a decade and so I felt that at times we couldn’t control the tempo of the match and that he would have been perfect. For example, that game against Southampton last season springs to mind - we couldn’t keep possession at all. I thought he’d have been perfect for that. I definitely have seen enough of him to know there is a quality player in there. It just hasn’t happened for him at Liverpool. It could be because of tactical incompatibility.
 
Hold on. Lucky? Klopp and the club targeted a lot of these players based on what he wants from his squad as well as their personalities.

Calling it luck is a convenient way of trying to cover up how good the club has been in the transfer window since Klopp came in.

Thiago isn’t working out so far but I’m always willing to give players time. I was the same with Keita.

Lucky? Absolutely! There’s a huge element of luck involved if a transfer is going to be prove successful or not. That goes for all players, all clubs and all leagues. There’s simply too many variables to take into account to deem a successful transfer being simply down to the club being ‘well run’ and doing their due diligence. Of course, that’s a major factor of any transfer being a success but there is certainly a healthy dose of luck involved, too.

For example, wasn’t Salah reported to be third or fourth down Klopp’s initial list for a RW? Didn’t your famed statistics department have their biggest hard-on for Keita out of all of the players their systems had data on in their 5+ years of being in operation? Both transfers have had polar opposite impacts on your club and the variables we mention have a lot to do with that.

I stand by my initial point: Liverpool were nigh-on perfect in the transfer market over the past 5-6 years, both purchasing and selling. Buying relatively cheaply on a player’s upward trajectory and somehow attaining ridiculous fees for nothing talents like Ibe, Brewster, Solanke etc. That is unheard of in the game across the globe. That hit rate - both incomings and outgoings - is unsustainable and it’s great to see their luck level out a bit with this flop of a Thiago signing.
 
I always thought he was a quality player and have followed him since before he scored a blinder against us in America for Barca. I’ve followed him for at least a decade and so I felt that at times we couldn’t control the tempo of the match and that he would have been perfect. For example, that game against Southampton last season springs to mind - we couldn’t keep possession at all. I thought he’d have been perfect for that. I definitely have seen enough of him to know there is a quality player in there. It just hasn’t happened for him at Liverpool. It could be because of tactical incompatibility.
We still have those same issues. The game against Everton recently for example. We made keeping possession to see out the game difficult.

We need that mould of a player, Carrick, kross, old thiago.

Anyone out there?
 
We still have those same issues. The game against Everton recently for example. We made keeping possession to see out the game difficult.

We need that mould of a player, Carrick, kross, old thiago.

Anyone out there?
I have no idea. I have very limited football knowledge these days as I don’t spend anywhere near enough time watching it. I bet @Adnan could come up with a name though.

And agreed. The problem hasn’t just gone away. Happened vs Leicester earlier in the season too. Still seething from that game.
 
Borderline?
I wouldn’t say Sane was borderline. Yes he didn’t have a long tenure. But he had 2 years where he was unplayable at times. I’m sure he won young player of the season too? His falling out with pep at the end was his downfall but when he did play he was brilliant. He would have to be regarded as a success as he was a big part of the team that won the domestic treble.
 
Lucky? Absolutely! There’s a huge element of luck involved if a transfer is going to be prove successful or not. That goes for all players, all clubs and all leagues. There’s simply too many variables to take into account to deem a successful transfer being simply down to the club being ‘well run’ and doing their due diligence. Of course, that’s a major factor of any transfer being a success but there is certainly a healthy dose of luck involved, too.

For example, wasn’t Salah reported to be third or fourth down Klopp’s initial list for a RW? Didn’t your famed statistics department have their biggest hard-on for Keita out of all of the players their systems had data on in their 5+ years of being in operation? Both transfers have had polar opposite impacts on your club and the variables we mention have a lot to do with that.

I stand by my initial point: Liverpool were nigh-on perfect in the transfer market over the past 5-6 years, both purchasing and selling. Buying relatively cheaply on a player’s upward trajectory and somehow attaining ridiculous fees for nothing talents like Ibe, Brewster, Solanke etc. That is unheard of in the game across the globe. That hit rate - both incomings and outgoings - is unsustainable and it’s great to see their luck level out a bit with this flop of a Thiago signing.
I suppose so but there are plenty of signings like Van Dijk, Wijnaldum, Mane, Robertson, Fabinho, Alisson & Matip who Klopp went for and we’ve built success around. He’s also managed some of those players really well. It took several months for Robertson & Fabinho to get regular starts and that proved a good decision.

Do you think some of those signings were definitely on an upward trajectory before we signed them? I don’t recall anyone saying players like Mane, Wijnaldum, Salah even Van Dijk we’re destined for Premier League and Champions League wins. Klopp lifted a lot of these players up.
 
Thiago is turning out to be a liability. Certainly not effective in this team and if anything he’s costing Liverpool right now.

Don’t know if anyone noticed Henderson tearing into him for giving the free kick on the edge of the box.
 
I wouldn’t say Sane was borderline. Yes he didn’t have a long tenure. But he had 2 years where he was unplayable at times. I’m sure he won young player of the season too? His falling out with pep at the end was his downfall but when he did play he was brilliant. He would have to be regarded as a success as he was a big part of the team that won the domestic treble.
Fair and good points and I certainly wouldn't argue that
 
The difference is 2-3 clubs at the top but do you really think there is much between the average teams of the top leauges? There is really no data for that at all and (former) EPL players saying "the EPL is the hardest league" is kinda touting their own horn.
I mean what does it say about the EPL if we look at the performances of Coutinho and Hazard in Spain. Does it mean the competition there is so much stronger? And how is it possible that someone like Dias from the portuguse(!) league can transform a team like City?
Also while people go on about "BL transfers struggle" due to some recent ones someone like De Bruyne didn't have a problem at all and has the same output (same was true for Aubameyang). I think people really overstate the "league" factor. Imo it depends a lot more on each individual club/philosophy and especially the personality of the player. Not every player adopts well to a new environment including new language, culture, team mates etc. and Thiago has never been the player at Bayern who makes everyone else tick, he is in a lot of ways the "cherry on top" (and I argued exactly that long before his transfer) and had enough ups and downs at Bayern too.
Appreciate the lengthy reply but I think it's just logic - which league has the most money? Therefore where would you expect the best players, on average, to be? When the best players become available, on average, where do they go?

I chose Ballack and Havertz because they weren't EPL biased - Werner said something similar as well. I don't buy into the transfer part of what you said, transfers from BL to PL are probably about the same as any other league to the PL, there are hits and misses & that even happens when PL teams buy from PL teams.
 
I always thought he was a quality player and have followed him since before he scored a blinder against us in America for Barca. I’ve followed him for at least a decade and so I felt that at times we couldn’t control the tempo of the match and that he would have been perfect. For example, that game against Southampton last season springs to mind - we couldn’t keep possession at all. I thought he’d have been perfect for that. I definitely have seen enough of him to know there is a quality player in there. It just hasn’t happened for him at Liverpool. It could be because of tactical incompatibility.
He needs legs beside him, has done for the last few seasons.
Without a CM partner to do his running for him he is nigh on pointless in a high tempo game of football.
Far to easy to play around.
He had Kimmich and Goretzka at Bayern who allowed him the freedom to play his own game, he doesn't have that luxury at Liverpool and it's highlighting his flaws massively.
 
He needs legs beside him, has done for the last few seasons.
Without a CM partner to do his running for him he is nigh on pointless in a high tempo game of football.
Far to easy to play around.
He had Kimmich and Goretzka at Bayern who allowed him the freedom to play his own game, he doesn't have that luxury at Liverpool and it's highlighting his flaws massively.
Have you actually watched Bayern play last season? They employ a very high defensive line and apply heavy pressure across the pitch. All of their players work extremely hard for the team including Thiago. He plays mainly in a double pivot with Goretzka (Not Goretzka and Kimmich) who operates higher up the pitch while Thiago stays deep and mops up.

Just because he is Brazilian and is silky on the ball means that he is defensively weak, has low workrate and need runners in midfield for him. That is just poor stereotyping.
 
Henderson and Cattermole. Then and now.

Lee+Cattermole+Jordan+Henderson+Manchester+rf79qzJ5J7Vx.jpg


0_Henderson-having-a-pop-at-Thiago.jpg
 
He's just a bit boring, isn't he? He doesn't score, doesn't assist, doesn't tackle well, doesn't defend well. Slows the play down hugely in a team that thrives off of fast attacks. Gives away free kicks. All the time. For no reason whatsoever. Does he actually offer anything that Wijnaldum and co didn't do already? Maybe that's harsh, because Wijnaldum does chip in with some goals.
 
Have you actually watched Bayern play last season? They employ a very high defensive line and apply heavy pressure across the pitch. All of their players work extremely hard for the team including Thiago. He plays mainly in a double pivot with Goretzka (Not Goretzka and Kimmich) who operates higher up the pitch while Thiago stays deep and mops up.

Just because he is Brazilian and is silky on the ball means that he is defensively weak, has low workrate and need runners in midfield for him. That is just poor stereotyping.
Yeah, I have watched Bayern from last season, and had you then you would have known that Kimmich played a fair amount of games in the middle alongside Thiago.
You'd also know that Thiago spent alot of his last season at Bayern injured.

How can telling the truth be stereotyping?
There's a reason why Klopp went for Milner instead of Thiago today, he was playing a team full of pacy tricky players and he wanted legs in the middle.
Hell, you even have Carragher saying he needs to sharpen up, you also had Henderson chastising him on the pitch.
 
Tbf, watching him playing in this pool team, I just felt like watching Fred playing in his first season with us. Easily discomposed the ball by the opponents, passing and reacting are slow.
this is probably he has not gotten used to EPL and his new team. He has a lot to do to recover his reputation. The loss of CBs is the real issue for them. Picking him up to blame is not fair.
 
I am just happy hes not a Bayern player anymore.
I know most fans still feel different, but he annoyed me nearly as much as Sane does at the moment.

Not just you. I felt the same about him
Talent to some people is completing 98% non risky passes to Kimmich Boateng and Hummels or showboating on social media. Talent to me is application on the field.
Despite Vidals age and misconducts(getting drunk, bar fights) many fans are ready to stick for him because he gives it all on the field.
James at the beginning many Bayern fans not enthusiastic about his purchase but he has won us over because he played hard, driving lay forward and earned it,
There are still errors in James midfield game which cause turnovers like vs Frankfurt but we can see the effort and forward play while trying to make thing happen, not just playing sideways safe passes to complete some 60 passes in our half on whoscored.
Bayern biggest problem is our slow transition where we have been emphasizing sterile midfield passes and possession over actually taking shots. We dominate possesion and looks like we lose focus of what to do with the ball. I won't mind surrendering some of those possession for more risky forward and penetrative plays
In Thagos 5 seasons his best game has been vs Arsenal last year in Munich. Other top games he has disappeared.

Still I wont want him sold yet, Renato and Vidal(sadly) can leave before Thiago. Maybe Kovac can make him a deep lying playmaker like Pirlo and have Tolliso/Goretzka and James do the running in front of him

Thiago is 29, Alaba is 28yrs, I believe Alaba will stay and Thiagos best years are likely already with Bayern, He has a shady injury record and most likely will be another Schweinsteiger and Hargreaves with his new clubs.
 
The difference is 2-3 clubs at the top but do you really think there is much between the average teams of the top leauges? There is really no data for that at all and (former) EPL players saying "the EPL is the hardest league" is kinda touting their own horn.
I mean what does it say about the EPL if we look at the performances of Coutinho and Hazard in Spain. Does it mean the competition there is so much stronger? And how is it possible that someone like Dias from the portuguse(!) league can transform a team like City?
Also while people go on about "BL transfers struggle" due to some recent ones someone like De Bruyne didn't have a problem at all and has the same output (same was true for Aubameyang). I think people really overstate the "league" factor. Imo it depends a lot more on each individual club/philosophy and especially the personality of the player. Not every player adopts well to a new environment including new language, culture, team mates etc. and Thiago has never been the player at Bayern who makes everyone else tick, he is in a lot of ways the "cherry on top" (and I argued exactly that long before his transfer) and had enough ups and downs at Bayern too.

KDB was player of the year last season, In current form, Gundogan might be on the way to winning this season too. Both from Bundesliga. Sane was YPOTY in his 2nd season too
 
We still have those same issues. The game against Everton recently for example. We made keeping possession to see out the game difficult.

We need that mould of a player, Carrick, kross, old thiago.

Anyone out there?

That species is dead.
 
We still have those same issues. The game against Everton recently for example. We made keeping possession to see out the game difficult.

We need that mould of a player, Carrick, kross, old thiago.

Anyone out there?

Honestly that type of player is tougher to come by with how fast paced and high intensity the game is at the top level, because teams simply don't let players dictate the game for the most part. Up and coming midfielders now need to be good in confined spaces but also be attack dogs while defending with plenty of energy. Generally those styles don't mix with controlling tempo going forward unless you are Xavi.
 
The difference is 2-3 clubs at the top but do you really think there is much between the average teams of the top leauges? There is really no data for that at all and (former) EPL players saying "the EPL is the hardest league" is kinda touting their own horn.
I mean what does it say about the EPL if we look at the performances of Coutinho and Hazard in Spain. Does it mean the competition there is so much stronger? And how is it possible that someone like Dias from the portuguse(!) league can transform a team like City?
Also while people go on about "BL transfers struggle" due to some recent ones someone like De Bruyne didn't have a problem at all and has the same output (same was true for Aubameyang). I think people really overstate the "league" factor. Imo it depends a lot more on each individual club/philosophy and especially the personality of the player. Not every player adopts well to a new environment including new language, culture, team mates etc. and Thiago has never been the player at Bayern who makes everyone else tick, he is in a lot of ways the "cherry on top" (and I argued exactly that long before his transfer) and had enough ups and downs at Bayern too.
While I think the weakness of the BL is somewhat overblown, you picked bad examples there for the Spanish comparison. Coutinho was always overhyped and many (most?) people laughed at Barca spending so much on him and he was widely tipped to fail. Hazard's just been destroyed by injuries but from what I hear he's actually had some good spells when he's managed to put a run together.
 
Tbf, watching him playing in this pool team, I just felt like watching Fred playing in his first season with us. Easily discomposed the ball by the opponents, passing and reacting are slow.
this is probably he has not gotten used to EPL and his new team. He has a lot to do to recover his reputation. The loss of CBs is the real issue for them. Picking him up to blame is not fair.

In fairness to Fred, he was just a bit crap and not sharp enough, he never looked like he was running in treacle which is Thiago’s biggest problem.
 
Bundesliga in general seems to be shipping the PL flop after flop lately :lol:
I'm trying to think of outfield player hits. I'm sure there are some but none that I can just think of immediately.
Mané being the biggest success right now in the league.
I think mane become a hit after coming here and establishing himself at saints. I'd border calling him a hit (though he did come from German league and is a hit so fair play)

Errr, I think you're getting your Red Bulls mixed up.
 
Both, Bayern and Liverpool, have a distinguished style of playing football, which is instrumental to their current successes.
However, these styles are very different and hardly compatible.

I already mentioned it before I never understood that Klopp was so keen on getting Thiago on board. Especially, because Klopp is well known for smart transfers that perfectly fit into his playing style. All his buys, bar maybe Keita, were successes. And the latter is just cursed with injuries since joining Liverpool, which he never had in Leipzig.
Maybe Klopp overestimated Thiago's versatility to adapt.

Thiago would have perfectly fitted into the midfield of Man City. No idea why Pep wasn't after him once it became clear he was looking for a new challenge in the Premier League. The 30 million Euro transfer fee couldn't have been a deal breaker. After all he is huge fan of Thiago since he promoted him into the first team of Barcelona. I still remember his words to the Bayern management in his first weeks at Munich requesting them to sign "Thiago or nobody".

Also I didn't understand Thiago himself why he absolutely wanted to join Liverpool despite well knowing they playing a total different kind of football.