style, no substance. I never got the hype.
Thiago Alc*ntara | Retires
- Thread starter horsechoker
- Start date
style, no substance. I never got the hype.
He's clearly a very good player. It hasn't worked out for him so far at Liverpool and hopefully it never does. Just like VdB with us though, it's very early to call them flops. Thiago could still come good but the system doesn't seem to suit him.
I don't think he was on the bench, I think I remember the commentator saying he couldn't play as he hadn't got his international clearance yet.
That's true, but begs the question as to why Liverpool signed him?
I never rated Thiago even at Barcelona or Bayern. He had a best pass but ultimately he wasnt the cause of their wins and wasnt fundamental to what they did. Compare Thiago to Gnabry, Lewandowski, Muller or Kimmich, it maybe easier at one time to look at it from a distance and say that Thiago is the best purely because of his ability on the ball but for me Bayern always had players everywhere that made it hard to play them and get a result. Thiago wasnt that for me.
Even if I'm wrong - I stated that Klopp turning to Thiago indicates that he was stopping the midfield that had worked for him on a CL winning level. Who out of Henderson, Milner, Widjanldum, Chamberlain, and Fabinho were similar to Thiago? Liverpool never needed Thiago because their midfield was balanced and successful yet now have changed their midfield ethos to accommodate him. It gave me an indication that Klopp has weakened in his mind, looking for the easier way in football than promoting that hard working ethos of battling and creating a chance by purely that. As stupid as it sounds it's a nicer more golden version of Pep playing Fellaini in the middle of his possession football to try have the option of football in a more different way all in the same system.
I saw this happen with Klopp at Dortmund, when his succesful tactics, choice of players and ethos changes slightly once he has achieved as much as he can with the club - deciding to change something when it's not really necessary. This is when in my opinion he wont be too far from leaving the club because he already shows a sign of wanting a tactical change at his present club and if it doesnt work for their benefit, he might want a change of environment aswell.
The current system doesn't suit him.
Also, the current system, to borrow @cyberman's terminology, has been found out. So Klopp needed to adapt. It may not work but Klopp had to try something. Teams have adjusted and are preventing TAA and Scrappy Doo from having the space they utilized over the past 2 seasons efficiently.
Plus, how many elite teams have got by this long without their midfield being more than an anvil for the rest of the team? Thiago is different from Coutinho, but they were humming for a while with the latter, prior to his Barcelona departure.
Thiago 
Reminds me on our buying of Veron. Excellent player but completely wrong fit for teams setup. Liverpool was great last few seasons because their midfielders played on only few touches and their main job was to move ball forward soon as possible. Thiago is playmaker who needs many touches on the ball and slows Pool play
I see similarities with Pogba. Both great individuals, have "moments of brilliance" when they look a class above but overall just not a good fit for the team and the league.
They simply don't make the team play better.
They simply don't make the team play better.
Because they need another creative midfielder, but they got blinded by Thiago controlling games for Bayern and spunked their budget on him. Honestly thank feck they never ended up signing Bruno when he was linked to them, he's literally perfect for how they want to play.
Except that it's completely wrong in the case of Pogba
Its sometimes the case with Pogba. Recently he has been a gem. In the past he has for patches excelled. But there have been very alarming times where his play has been detrimental to the team and he has looked utterly unsuited to playing in midfield.
The parallels with both teams losing their influential Dutch centre backs and suddenly becoming massively vulnerable is a really bizarre coincidence too.
He's exactly what we need, but exactly what Liverpool didn't.
Liverpool were shipping more goals before VVD got injured than after. His form had declined from the back end of last season.
I don't disagree tbh, I'm just saying amidst all that madness, we all know he's more than suited for the PL and our team. Thiago still deserves time to be judged fairly IMHO.
True. All their defenders were there when Villa trashed them.
I still think he will come good when Liverpool get their defense back and gets him playing next to Henderson and Fabinho rather than having both behind him. He's so much more than just a 'neat and tidy' midfielder, but long may this last.
I think that's 8 starts now for Liverpool.
W2, D2, L4
W2, D2, L4
Doesn't Suit Liverpool but would have suited us with a holding midfielder alongside him.
I don't get it.
Liverpool fans are acting as if they can't understand why he's playing so deep instead of sitting behind the striker getting goals and assists.
I"m pretty sure he never played high up the field for Bayern. It was always Muller, Goretzka and co ahead of him while he played a more Jorginho-esque position.
People have invented this narrative that he's going to solve their problem with unlocking deep defences but I don't think there's anything in his history to support that idea.
Liverpool fans are acting as if they can't understand why he's playing so deep instead of sitting behind the striker getting goals and assists.
I"m pretty sure he never played high up the field for Bayern. It was always Muller, Goretzka and co ahead of him while he played a more Jorginho-esque position.
People have invented this narrative that he's going to solve their problem with unlocking deep defences but I don't think there's anything in his history to support that idea.
The irony.
He is certainly not a player that will elevate a team like Liverpool, I wouldn't even describe him as a game changer. He is a good player to have in a great squad, nothing more. The aspect of his game I have been most impressed with is his ability to avoid bookings for consistently fouling.
Do we? IMO He's not suited to our team for 3 reasons:
1) We can't drop Bruno, so as attacking mid he's always second choice. Bruno always plays.
2) If we want to play Pogba and Bruno, we play very unbalanced side. Just take a look how much better we look with structured setup than free-floating front 4 (the gap between midfielders and forwards).
3) He can't be trusted to play double pivot effectively against any team. This experiment has failed so many times, I don't know why are we still trying to force that. He will do the job against Burnley, but not against top 6 sides. So we go back to point 1 and 2.
Sure, you're entitled to your opinion. If you don't rate him, you don't rate him. I can't profess to have ever taken an avid interest in him or his career. I suppose I would have only really seen him in the odd Bundesliga/La Liga and CL games. I've always thought he looked a very good player but one that possibly never lived up to the early hype around him.
If we had of bought him, let's be honest there would be war on here if people were writing him off already. I mean, he's been very poor so far and he doesn't seem to suit their system, like at all. But there's still a chance he comes good. Given that he seems a very systematic player, I can't see him elevating Liverpool whatsoever, but he could still be a good player for them in time. I hope he flops miserably, mind.
Of course we do, he's showed plenty of times under Jose and Ole.
Regarding your third point, look at some of his recent games in a double pivot. He's more than suited for the role if his mind is up to it. The problem has always been consistency for him individually and the quality around him in general.
Plenty of times, but not consistently - and that is the problem.
Would you seriously play him midfield against any opponent?
If Pogba problem is the quality around him than he is the problem as well. I don't see anyone speaking loudly about Fred and McTominay that quality around them is the problem, and yet they are being picked ahead of Pogba on regular basis (in midfield against decent opponents).
No that comparison is way off. Yes Pogba has had games for us where he hasn't performed but to say he doesn't make us better is ridiculous. He's won games for us ffs!
Veron had much more impact on Utd than Thiago well ever have on Liverpool. I always thought him and Becks didn't work together. Without Becks he was great.
I think people are dismissing him too quickly.
If he's still shit by the end of the year then I'll say everyone was right.
If he's still shit by the end of the year then I'll say everyone was right.
I thought moving him deeper and closer to the defence might allow him more time on the ball to pick those passes and require him to press a little less, but my god he's so bad at tackling that they would just end up giving away tons of freekicks just outside the box.
A guy like Ward Prowse would be licking his lips at the prospect of Thiago playing as a deep lying midfielder.
A guy like Ward Prowse would be licking his lips at the prospect of Thiago playing as a deep lying midfielder.
He suits City most. Was a top player to get it a bizarre choice. Interestingly it should have made VVD being injured easier as Thiago would play CDM with Fabinho CB.
Problem is he will be 30 this year and with all his injuries and time taken to adjust to the PL, time is not on his side.
Just theorising....is it because his brand of football is not sustainable long term? Maybe the pace/high level intensity catches up with the players in the end so he thought that Thiago would help keep the ball when winning, slow the pace down and ride out the game
What you say is most likelytrue and there could be many things that effects Klopps football.
His game rides on a squad arguably mostly in their prime working in a team sync of hard work and pressing. Liverpool at their best arguably creates chances/pressure from their pressing ability more or just as much as their other attacking abilities like their fullbacks (which also arise from the opposition being pressed and the ball getting recycled to the fullbacks etc).
Then you look at someone like Firmino who did considerably well under Klopp but is a little less consistent now a days (I wouldnt say he is useless like some do). This could be due to Firmino feeling lethargic or instead Liverpool needing that change of tactic after playing the same formation or tactics for a long time.
Consider Jota for example, many thought he was going to be a back up for Mane but ended up playing as a CF instead of Firmino. That tactic which had worked for 3 years is not as good as it can be right now and a CF is required. Whilst Jota will more likely score more goals - there is a slight possibility that alternative tactics effects Mane and Salah by 5% (arguably their main forwards of the last couple years) whilst we see Jota being the most dangerous forward of the lot.
It's just an example but ultimately it can be seen in midfield too - the midfield balance and type that worked (Fabinho, Henderson, wijnaldum, Chamberlain, Keita, Milner etc) is being changed a bit to accommodate Thiago who plays football in the most different way out of the lot. Thiago will bring his benefits to Liverpool but he will also remove some of the strengths the team already had previously. Say its Milner or Wijnaldum that gets stuck out for Thiago - liverpool get a different tempo to their game overall related to their attacking ability as well as their defensive ability. Suddenly they arguably have a creator in the middle making chances when the whole team was successful arguably pressing and not relying on such a creator at all.
The one last minor thing to add to the list is that their is not much rotation happening either which also adds to fitness problems. I also personally feel that Klopp's players get a bit big headed after feeling that they have achieved the max at their club to the point that they consider a change alongside the possibility that Klopp might feel the same underneath ( Lewandowski, Sahin, Kagawa, Gotze at Dortmund and you hear players like Salah, Widnajldum wanting to leave too.) This also leads to a need of change and targeting different players to freshen things up at the core.
All of this has to kind of combine because all managers need to change their tactic eventually (we never saw Cole and Yorke be the sole tactic of SAF's tenure but we saw him change it up and use Ronaldo, tevez and rooney just as much as he used Van Nistelrooy by himself) - it just feels that Klopp's tactic A is slightly better than his tactic B, that's why he jumps in and uses it at the start of his time at the club but ends up changing it when it has to be done.
I would tbh. I'm talking about the current Pogba, yeah without a single doubt in my mind.
Ok then, this is where we disagree. I'd say we've more often than not seen this will not work (because almost all of his best moves happen when he is in a free role).
No worries bro. It's not even the subject of the thread anyway
I was always underwhelmed by him at Barcelona. After being touted as the next Xavi, I watched whenever he got minutes and all I noticed was how sloppy he was with his passing. But he was young so easy to forgive.
At Bayern, I haven’t kept up to date with him in the past 2-3 seasons but again I always was wanting to see this amazing talent that everyone keeps raving about. He has a lot of ability but I’ve never seen it on a consistent basis. He had a great game against Arsenal once and pretty sure people thought that was norm but Bayern fans were saying it wasn’t
At Bayern, I haven’t kept up to date with him in the past 2-3 seasons but again I always was wanting to see this amazing talent that everyone keeps raving about. He has a lot of ability but I’ve never seen it on a consistent basis. He had a great game against Arsenal once and pretty sure people thought that was norm but Bayern fans were saying it wasn’t
He's Liverpools Schweinstiger.