They downed tools for Jose, they downed tools for Ole, now they've downed tools for Rangnick, why won't they down tools for the next manager?

[simplyared]

Can't understand this continual talk about players "downing tools". As if it's the reason the club is where it's at now.
It was there to be seen yesterday and has been a pattern for a while now. We have moments where we find some sort of momentum. Usually the first 20 mins of a game where we look sharp. That changes from then on as we've nothing to show for it. Confidence drops and we start making big mistakes, losing position, making bad passes, you name it. Everything becomes sloppy and we then rely on individuals, often Bruno to create something out of the shambles.
The effort is there but being such mediocre players they fold. They don't have the natural required skills and mentality to keep up the same standard for 90 mins.
Easy as that!

 

[Jim Beam]

do you think players care less because they get paid so much, if they look at the likes of City and Liverpool are they thinking we cant compete with them so are happy enough picking up a pay cheque each week and apply minimal effort? Seems that way, any other lower placed team their players put a shift in and fight for the team, maybe to get rewarded with a move to bigger club.

Not sure, if I had to guess I think they care. Every player wants to compete and win things and I know we scream to get rid of the most, but some of those players look like they don't even want to be here. Which is a problem whether you rid of them or not. Wages certainly don't help and it is absolutely baffling that some of them earn so much.

Think the standard and culture of the club is the biggest problem. Before it was all about winning, this bunch looks just lost. It will take a proper manager and 2 or 3 great signings both in terms of mentality and ability for a start.

 

[UpWithRivers]

Teams around 5th-8th lose to poor teams often, that why they are where they are. The reality is we're no better than that. I've been saying it for years.

The teams around 5-8 are being praised for having excellent seasons. There players are playing to capacity. The are doing as well as they can. They would bite your hand off for most of our players. If you think Villa and West Ham have better players than us then I dont know what to say. Maybe our players arnt that good but thats not the main problem. The main problem is that they are playing sht. Who get a higher than average season rating? De Gea?

 

[Adisa]

The only first team regular I wouldn't consider an offer for is Sancho...Vanrane to an extent. The rest should be made available.

 

[Judas]

Its going to take time to get rid of them all, will the manager survive long enough to do so Im not so sure ?

If the signs are there, they will. He'll get the backing from the fans. As long as we're seeing something, the good will will be there. The only way we can go forward is by making some big decisions and getting rid of a lot of this squad. It needs more than freshening up, it needs to be gutted.

 

[youmeletsfly]

Interesting thought. I was discussing this with a friend the other day and he told me that, even though Mourinho was one of the worst things that happened to United, he was actually the best thing that happened to some of these players. It's not about him failing at United, since not a single post-Fergie appointment can be deemed a success. It's more about his belligerent character, his egocentricity and his overall demeanour that have turned, from a quality of his, into his kryptonite as he's going down the tiers of top-level management. Add to this the preconceived notion within a huge part of the fans that he was not and never would have been the right fit for United, and you get a peculiar result after the end of his tenure.

It somehow seemed to solidify the belief, both in and around the club, that we already had most of what we need to challenge at our disposal. It would take time, of course, for the talent to reach its full potential, but most of the pieces were already there. The only problem was the toxicity. All we needed was a manager compatible with the -as you call it- United way of sticking by your own to nurture these players and also go for a few targeted signings. And the club acted accordingly by offering ridiculous wages left, right and centre. What we got was three years of the fans of the other PL clubs laughing at us and admitting openly that they wish for us to win just the right amount of matches so that Solskjaer would keep his job because they understood that everybody at United was living in la-la Land. Of course, the players will take the money and, of course, whenever the push comes to shove, they'll try to save their skins by hiding behind the manager's failures.

I mentioned elsewhere that Solskjaer's downfall didn't come out of the blue at the start of this season. It began the moment he went from saying "i will be a success here but i can't say the same for some players", after the 4-0 hammering at Goodison, to blaming the "internet fans" for demanding transfers in his first pre-season interview. This season, with Ronnie-Varane and Sancho coming to OT to complete the puzzle, it was just the peak of the delusion this club has been living in for many years.

I agree, the summer window was absolutely comical.

Looking back at the summer, I find it absolutely mind boggling from a business management perspective to allow so much money to be spent, considering we had a newbie manager with clearly no plan on how to develop the team further.

Also, we had poor choice of managers overall, which lead to the team now being where it is. Don't get me wrong, it's not like we had Darren Fletcher on the bench since 2013, the managers weren't that bad, but they were long past it and Ole was just a newbie. I was once at a thing where some of the well known Romanian players like Hagi, Popescu, Contra etc were speaking about being at a Guardiola seminar of some sorts. All of them were impressed by Guardiola having a team of project managers around him, people that treated anything like a fecking project, with targets, objectives and deadlines. This is what we didn't do in 2013. We should've hired a young upcoming coach also educated on how a business/project should be ran. That's why all the clubs these days go for the German folks, because they're not only football guys, they're fecking educated.

When we got the first educated manager around here, the club chose not to support him and sacked him after winning a cup.

Players, their agents and PR teams notice this kind of shit and take advantage in any possible way. It's a high earning environment filled with bad performers, an ideal job for all the guys there. Not a single soul bar DDG who gets in their way with brilliant performances week in, week out.

Everyone can sit back, relax and earn their money. Why do you think "Rashy$$$" is not bothered to run, even after being benched for like 4 games out of 6? He's paid handsomely, he's a local boy, which goes well with all the idiots in the crowd and, most importantly, there are no repercussions and this is where I was trying to get at. I really hope we get ETH or Luis Enrique because they're known as being fecking brutal with players and they might force a clear-out, even if the club wants it or not.

I'm sick of seeing these "mancunians" and "youngsters from the academy" stinking the place around. We've come to a time where players like Elanga and MCT, who can barely hit a fecking football are starting week in - week out for a club aspiring to win titles and UCL's. We went from promoting talent to promoting people just because it's liked by the public.

In regards to the club, it's easy. It is not a club based on sporting success anymore and it's not ran by football people, otherwise:
- we wouldn't hire average to newbie managers
- we wouldn't accept promoting youngsters with no talent (but hey, it goes well in the social media, doesn't it?)
- we wouldn't spend 80 mil on an Everton level defender
- we wouldn't spend 50 mil on a Crystal Palace defender who doesn't know how to kick and stop a ball
- we wouldn't get a 37 year old drama queen
- players who are not bothered to run like Rashy$$$, Lingard and Pogba would've been fecked off a long time ago
- and the list can continue for 100 more paragraphs

I'm not surprised the club is doing so poorly and the players are downing tools. I mean, everything that happened in the last 9 years has created a perfect environment for them and others to down tools.

 

[Steve Bruce]

I personally think the players they aren't good enough. Some will never be good enough and some have a chance.

Of the current squad the ones I think are good enough although not necessarily in form

DDG
Bruno
Sancho
Ronaldo
Varane

The ones I think could possibly be good enough with better coaching and a system to play to are

Rashford
Shaw
Dalot
Elanga

The ones I think are never going to be good enough or past it

Matic
Mata
Fred
McTominay
Maguire
AWB
Telles
Lindelof

Then of course the players that will be leaving or want to leave

Martial
Lingard
Pogba
VDB
Cavani
Bailly
Henderson

I don't expect everyone to agree with me, there's certainly players that are debatable but the results and performances on the pitch are evident that we're far from good enough.

Anyone that thinks this can be turned around in 2 seasons need a wake up call. I personally think it'll take 3-5 seasons to be competitive again.

The other big thing is the mentality and attitude of our club. We're like spoilt brats who don't want to put the yards in. We need to train harder, work harder and play harder. We need every team we play against to come away knowing they where in a battle, but instead they're coming away from our games saying it was physically an easy day.

I love the club but we're along way from where we want to be

 

[Maniron]

The right manager will instantly get the attention if not the respect of the players.
The right manager will provide a level playing field and give all the players an equal opportunity to impress.
The right manager will fairly quickly decide on the core players that he wants to build a team around, based on skill and attitude.
The right manager will be looking at the younger players in the club to see who he can give a first team opportunity to
The right manager will quickly gain the respect of the players that want to give their all and he will gain the respect of the Board
The right manager will find a way of marginalising/shipping out players with a poor attitude, or not good enough to play for the club
The right manager will influence player recruitment and plug the obvious holes in the team and be tactically astute
The right manager will improve the players who want to play for him

Clearly finding the right manager is not easy, but if (and it's a big if) we manage to get this appointment right this time around we could be back on track fairly quickly. I believe the fundamentals are still in place and that any toxicity that does exist can be dealt with.

 

[Adisa]

I personally think the players they aren't good enough. Some will never be good enough and some have a chance.

Of the current squad the ones I think are good enough although not necessarily in form

DDG
Bruno
Sancho
Ronaldo
Varane

The ones I think could possibly be good enough with better coaching and a system to play to are

Rashford
Shaw
Dalot
Elanga

The ones I think are never going to be good enough or past it

Matic
Mata
Fred
McTominay
Maguire
AWB
Telles
Lindelof

Then of course the players that will be leaving or want to leave

Martial
Lingard
Pogba
VDB
Cavani
Bailly
Henderson

I don't expect everyone to agree with me, there's certainly players that are debatable but the results and performances on the pitch are evident that we're far from good enough.

Anyone that thinks this can be turned around in 2 seasons need a wake up call. I personally think it'll take 3-5 seasons to be competitive again.

The other big thing is the mentality and attitude of our club. We're like spoilt brats who don't want to put the yards in. We need to train harder, work harder and play harder. We need every team we play against to come away knowing they where in a battle, but instead they're coming away from our games saying it was physically an easy day.

I love the club but we're along way from where we want to be

Personally, all the players below the first group should be sold or told to bring offers.

 

[Castia]

Why in the hell are we starting players that are leaving in a few weeks time? In what world does Pogba start when it's clear he's off on a free ( a £80m investment btw) and has just criticised the club again whilst away on international duty? shit performances by players who dont want to be here and shit performances by those that just aren't good enough (McTominay, Dalot, Fred, Elanga) it's a complete mess.

I like Ralf but he's not had the bollocks to make the big calls. Players need dropping (Maguire) and others need completely removing from the squad.

 

[Amira]

On the bright side, whether they’ve downed tools on multiple managers or they are simply not good enough, the solution is the same.

 

[Infra-red]

On the bright side, whether they’ve downed tools on multiple managers or they are simply not good enough, the solution is the same.

Indeed. This is surely the worst team that the club has assembled post-SAF. Whether they are insubordinate or simply rubbish, a major rebuild is required.

 

[PeteManic]

The players are just really terrible and the team doesn't have a midfield that controls the ball. That is the simple issue.

 

[devilish]

I agree, the summer window was absolutely comical.

Looking back at the summer, I find it absolutely mind boggling from a business management perspective to allow so much money to be spent, considering we had a newbie manager with clearly no plan on how to develop the team further.

Also, we had poor choice of managers overall, which lead to the team now being where it is. Don't get me wrong, it's not like we had Darren Fletcher on the bench since 2013, the managers weren't that bad, but they were long past it and Ole was just a newbie. I was once at a thing where some of the well known Romanian players like Hagi, Popescu, Contra etc were speaking about being at a Guardiola seminar of some sorts. All of them were impressed by Guardiola having a team of project managers around him, people that treated anything like a fecking project, with targets, objectives and deadlines. This is what we didn't do in 2013. We should've hired a young upcoming coach also educated on how a business/project should be ran. That's why all the clubs these days go for the German folks, because they're not only football guys, they're fecking educated.

When we got the first educated manager around here, the club chose not to support him and sacked him after winning a cup.

Players, their agents and PR teams notice this kind of shit and take advantage in any possible way. It's a high earning environment filled with bad performers, an ideal job for all the guys there. Not a single soul bar DDG who gets in their way with brilliant performances week in, week out.

Everyone can sit back, relax and earn their money. Why do you think "Rashy$$$" is not bothered to run, even after being benched for like 4 games out of 6? He's paid handsomely, he's a local boy, which goes well with all the idiots in the crowd and, most importantly, there are no repercussions and this is where I was trying to get at. I really hope we get ETH or Luis Enrique because they're known as being fecking brutal with players and they might force a clear-out, even if the club wants it or not.

I'm sick of seeing these "mancunians" and "youngsters from the academy" stinking the place around. We've come to a time where players like Elanga and MCT, who can barely hit a fecking football are starting week in - week out for a club aspiring to win titles and UCL's. We went from promoting talent to promoting people just because it's liked by the public.

In regards to the club, it's easy. It is not a club based on sporting success anymore and it's not ran by football people, otherwise:
- we wouldn't hire average to newbie managers
- we wouldn't accept promoting youngsters with no talent (but hey, it goes well in the social media, doesn't it?)
- we wouldn't spend 80 mil on an Everton level defender
- we wouldn't spend 50 mil on a Crystal Palace defender who doesn't know how to kick and stop a ball
- we wouldn't get a 37 year old drama queen
- players who are not bothered to run like Rashy$$$, Lingard and Pogba would've been fecked off a long time ago
- and the list can continue for 100 more paragraphs

I'm not surprised the club is doing so poorly and the players are downing tools. I mean, everything that happened in the last 9 years has created a perfect environment for them and others to down tools.

I agree on everything apart the elanga thing

 

[R'hllor]

There are more than one way to get rid of these mfs, if you cant sell them, loan them, if they dont wanna leave or nobody wants them, drop them to U23 let them rot there and give them 10% (if thats the number) of games that you have to. Dont tell me, that would be crazy to have such quality frozen out, miss me with that shit, they dont have hunger, dont have drive, which leads to useless quality, feck them all, they need to be removed from first team so they dont spread their desease.

RR fecked up, coward due this whole top 4 CL bullshit didnt have a balls to remove them from changing room, they couldnt/didnt want to run/press, they made him to change his formation, his style of play. Dont care if youngsters are ready or not, have quality or not, at least we would watch them fight, trying to prove themself without being influenced by overpaid feckers that are giving feck all and taking everything.

 

[Gordon S]

Do not think it is that simple. Like it can only be two things, lack of talent or talented players downing tools.

The reason we still have a small chance of reaching top four despite having a diabolical season is because we have some very talented players in the squad, players like De Gea, Pogba, Bruno, Sancho, Rashford, Ronaldo all have the ability to pull a rabbit out of the hat once in a while and that gives us points.

One of our big problems is having a very mediocre central midfield. And for some reason very few options and not really any combinations of players that work together, no synergy at all. Give Scott and Fred a kamikaze defending Leeds and they might look quality but against any kind of organized defence they look decent at best. Pogba just doesn`t have the mindset of a midfielder and Matic doesn`t have the legs or consistency any more.

 

[Amir]

Can't understand this continual talk about players "downing tools". As if it's the reason the club is where it's at now.
It was there to be seen yesterday and has been a pattern for a while now. We have moments where we find some sort of momentum. Usually the first 20 mins of a game where we look sharp. That changes from then on as we've nothing to show for it. Confidence drops and we start making big mistakes, losing position, making bad passes, you name it. Everything becomes sloppy and we then rely on individuals, often Bruno to create something out of the shambles.
The effort is there but being such mediocre players they fold. They don't have the natural required skills and mentality to keep up the same standard for 90 mins.
Easy as that!

Agreed. It's not Man United, it's football - those things happen. During Fergie's years we didn't use the term downing tools, but I absolutely remember how in some of our weaker periods like between 2003-2006 - people would complain about players not trying enough.

When a team loses confidence, it's manifests in different ways.

 

[DanielofLeyland]

I think a degree of cynicism has crept in at United and when that becomes the prevailing mood it doesn't matter what type of personality you are as a player it will have an impact.

I don't dislike Ragnick and I appreciate why the board hired an interim manager bit it hasn't really worked out. The club were at a low ebb at the end of Ole's tenure due to poor performances. The players have been criticised virtually every week by the media and their own supporters online. The Mirror live on supposed United bust ups. Over time, this will get into the players heads. They will think they aren't liked by the fans so they'll think 'f*ck them'. They'll also think it's player X's fault because he doesn't do this and actually player Y is a bit of a knob... etc, etc. Even if they like each other, on the field there will be this animosity that has grown over the season.

Unfortunately for these players they play for United and, despite being poor for the majority of the season now, its still breaking news just how rubbish some performances have been.

Add to that an interim manager. Even if Ralf is giving them real words of encouragement when the rest of the world is telling you you're $hit you will take any compliment with a pinch of salt.

Some of these players have to take ownership and say this hasn't been good enough but I'm not surprised some just don't see the point when they think everything they do will be pilloried anyway.

At least with a new season and manager, who will be there for the foreseeable, and a pre-season to really get to know his methods and practiced we should see some of the confidence return. Some of these players clearly don't like playing football at the moment and I don't think it's all down to them being poisonous personalities.

 

[The Dane]

It’s clear from what you see on the field and read in the press that this group of players are not willing to go that extra mile for each other and for the club. Unless a new manager is able to fix that problem and create a good atmosphere in the dressing room, then I don’t think he stands a chance.
First step is appointing a new captain and I am not sure that anyone in the current squad are ideal candidates and to go out and buy someone and give him the captaincy from day one he will have to be a top class well respected player as well as a natural leader.

 

[Smores]

I don't think it's downing tools as such. Our players get ahead of themselves and all think they're entitled to challenge for titles. When it doesn't pan out they fall to pieces.

We need someone to keep their ambitions in check and get them to focus on growth. As we've seen in recent months this lot cry about work as they still think they know better.

 

[M Bison]

We have a squad full of internationals, so I don’t agree with the comments that the players aren’t good enough. Watching Spurs now, outside of Kane and Son, there’s not many others who I’d take in our team, yet they’re a lot more cohesive and a proper unit (although they’ve had lots of poor moments this season), that comes down to management and coaching.

 

[Kag]

The issue is a lot more sophisticated than the downing tools for four different managers narrative, but I’m not expecting nuance on here.

We could sign Klopp or Guardiola tomorrow and they’d have a hard time getting much more of a tune out of this side. Some of the personnel issues, particularly in midfield, are catastrophic.

 

[Kag]

We have a squad full of internationals, so I don’t agree with the comments that the players aren’t good enough. Watching Spurs now, outside of Kane and Son, there’s not many others who I’d take in our team, yet they’re a lot more cohesive and a proper unit (although they’ve had lots of poor moments this season), that comes down to management and coaching.

Spurs are as shite as us. They too have huge issues in the first team and are lucky enough to have four or five really good players (like us) to pick up points in line with a top six finish.

 

[redmanx]

Are we really downing tools? It happens so frequently that I'm more inclined to believe that this is just how shit we are.

How shite they are isnt the problem, its how they simply seem to give up so easily, thats whats really shite about them.

 

[redmanx]

The teams around 5-8 are being praised for having excellent seasons. There players are playing to capacity. The are doing as well as they can. They would bite your hand off for most of our players. If you think Villa and West Ham have better players than us then I dont know what to say. Maybe our players arnt that good but thats not the main problem. The main problem is that they are playing sht. Who get a higher than average season rating? De Gea?

We have some great players, but they have poor attitudes and dont seem to care.

 

[Frank Grimes]

"Downed tools" has overtaken "thrown under the bus".

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

The issue is a lot more sophisticated than the downing tools for four different managers narrative, but I’m not expecting nuance on here.

We could sign Klopp or Guardiola tomorrow and they’d have a hard time getting much more of a tune out of this side. Some of the personnel issues, particularly in midfield, are catastrophic.

Not too sure about that. Klopp got a better tune out of Liverpool in his first full season there with a team that had just finished 8th and was counting Clyne, Milner, Mignolet, Lovren and Can in the top 10 appearance-makers. I wouldn't have any of them near our current squad.

Arsenal are ahead of us right now with the shocking Xhaka in midfield, West Ham are breathing down our necks with Soucek - is he a better footballer than McTominay? I don't see it - better set piece threat, definitely.

A good manager (and we clearly haven't had one for a long time) gets more out of his team than the sum of their parts. Stick 2019/20 Henderson and Wijnaldum in our team from the last few seasons and the majority of the fanbase would be convinced they're both Championship quality.

The teams around 5-8 are being praised for having excellent seasons. There players are playing to capacity. The are doing as well as they can. They would bite your hand off for most of our players. If you think Villa and West Ham have better players than us then I dont know what to say. Maybe our players arnt that good but thats not the main problem. The main problem is that they are playing sht. Who get a higher than average season rating? De Gea?

Exactly. I have no idea how anyone can look at the squad we have and think its normal level is 7th place, between West Ham and Wolves.

The easiest fix for this team is to (finally) put a top-level manager in charge.

(Obvious disclaimer since this is RedCafe and everything needs to be a binary argument: we also need a few more top quality players - 3 or 4 would be great. We absolutely do not need to gut this squad and burn it all down, or anything similarly dramatic)

 

[dinostar77]

According to MEN some of them are already unimpressed and underwhelmed if Eric Ten Hag is appointed. Basically theres a cancer (some players) in the club that needs to be removed for the long term future of the club.

 

[croadyman]

I’m not even sure they ever picked up tools for Rangnick

Maybe for 35 mins against Palace but not since