They downed tools for Jose, they downed tools for Ole, now they've downed tools for Rangnick, why won't they down tools for the next manager?

Moby said:
How much time has it been since a striker who was kicked out of united for being lazy limited shite first touch and what not went on to win the serie a winning the footballer of the year and earning a 100m transfer to a team that's 12 points ahead of us? He will be playing in cl next season while we sit and continue to shuffle squads after making them look useless in this toxic environment.
Click to expand...
What is that striker actually doing this season ? How has he performed for the team you are talking about ? You couldn't have chosen a worse example
 
kouroux said:
What is that striker actually doing this season ? How has he performed for the team you are talking about ? You couldn't have chosen a worse example
Click to expand...
Weird example from him wasn’t it? Lukaku isn’t the reason Chelsea are 12 points ahead their depth in quality plus a top manager is.

Also ST means f all as City are winning the league without one
 
JPRouve said:
Why people struggle with this very simple concept. This group of player never downed tools, they are just not an elite group of players.
Click to expand...
Fully agree the effort was there, the quality to our class Leicester wasn’t.
 
Red_toad said:
Fully agree the effort was there, the quality to our class Leicester wasn’t.
Click to expand...

Why can't it be both? i.e. the players are not talented enough AND they have not put enough efforts.
Our players don't run enough, they don't flex their muscle as hard as they can in 50-50s, they choose to jog back instead of dashing back when we got countered. when the opponent players got a poor touch, they choose to stand still instead of trying to pick the loose ball up, and they haven't put in enough effort to improve their basice footballing skills.

You can surely improve your passing, crossing ,shooting ability by practicing it non stop. Players like Gary Neville had limited talents but he became a useful player by practicing crossing non stop. back in the days you can also see the basic skills of darren fletcher improving bit by bit each year. while nowadays players like McTominay hasn't even put in one single good cross in his entire man utd career and he doesn't bother improving it.
 
JeffFromHK said:
Why can't it be both? i.e. the players are not talented enough AND they have not put enough efforts.
Our players don't run enough, they don't flex their muscle as hard as they can in 50-50s, they choose to jog back instead of dashing back when we got countered. when the opponent players got a poor touch, they choose to stand still instead of trying to pick the loose ball up, and they haven't put in enough effort to improve their basice footballing skills.

You can surely improve your passing, crossing ,shooting ability by practicing it non stop. Players like Gary Neville had limited talents but he became a useful player by practicing crossing non stop. back in the days you can also see the basic skills of darren fletcher improving bit by bit each year. while nowadays players like McTominay hasn't even put in one single good cross in his entire man utd career and he doesn't bother improving it.
Click to expand...
Because football clubs have access to much more data regarding the physical exertion of players and they'd know if a player half ass it on a regular basis. What seems for most fans as lack of effort, is more often than not players who are just gassed (Pogba getting subbed early every game isn't a coincidence for instance).
Of course there are isolated moments where the players do display some laziness and half commitment but overall ? I don't believe it, not at the PL level anyway
 
At the top level the difference between winning and losing is not huge and a player does not need a huge drop in effort to become a liability, there's so many times when we need a leader
on the pitch to voice a few home truths when its obvious that someone is not giving their all,
 
If the players are downing tools, we might as well get a manager that they won't down tools. I don't believe they downed tools against Ole. They just came to a realization that what he was doing was not working after two plus years with him and no trophy. I believe most of our players still have good relationships with Ole. I wouldnt label that as downing tools compared to what we saw under mourinho. The players definitely down tools for mourinho though and I am sure they were happy when he left.
 
JeffFromHK said:
Why can't it be both? i.e. the players are not talented enough AND they have not put enough efforts.
Our players don't run enough, they don't flex their muscle as hard as they can in 50-50s, they choose to jog back instead of dashing back when we got countered. when the opponent players got a poor touch, they choose to stand still instead of trying to pick the loose ball up, and they haven't put in enough effort to improve their basice footballing skills.

You can surely improve your passing, crossing ,shooting ability by practicing it non stop. Players like Gary Neville had limited talents but he became a useful player by practicing crossing non stop. back in the days you can also see the basic skills of darren fletcher improving bit by bit each year. while nowadays players like McTominay hasn't even put in one single good cross in his entire man utd career and he doesn't bother improving it.
Click to expand...
He’s not a right back nor a wide player, so why would he? I’d rather he worked on his passing and availability to receive passes.
No idea if he’s never put in a single good cross, wonder where you got that fact from?

Edit, went to look at factual stats, his cross accuracy is fine for a central midfield player
https://www.premierleague.com/players/14824/Scott-McTominay/stats
 
Last edited:
I think there was an element of downing tools under Jose but I'd argue he downed tools on them first

Under Ole I think the increased expectation for this season was too much and he didn't have the experience/ability to keep them focused

Now under Ralf there's a general malaise from a combination of regret for Ole who a lot of them liked very much and a knowledge that it won't be Ralf in charge next season anyway. Plus the bunch of contracts running down doesn't help

Im one of the few that thinks there's a reasonable nucleus of talent in the squad. The right coach can make all the difference. Fingers crossed we appoint them soon
 
Not interested in the new season or manager until most of these players are sold
 
This team is brimming with United DNA. They know exactly what playing for United is all about. That's what Ole and Carricky told us anyway.
 
Red_toad said:
He’s not a right back nor a wide player, so why would he? I’d rather he worked on his passing and availability to receive passes.
No idea if he’s never put in a single good cross, wonder where you got that fact from?

Edit, went to look at factual stats, his cross accuracy is fine for a central midfield player
https://www.premierleague.com/players/14824/Scott-McTominay/stats
Click to expand...

Fletcher, Cleverley and Carrick weren't wide players as well, but they still managed to whip in good crosses here and there
https://www.premierleague.com/players/1943/Darren-Fletcher/stats
https://www.premierleague.com/players/3448/Tom-Cleverley/stats
https://www.premierleague.com/players/1634/Michael-Carrick/stats

the fact that a cross is considered a "success" (i.e. hitting a teammate) does not mean it is a good cross. I cant even recall McTominay doing a cross like how Cleverley assisted Welbeck and RVP, both vs Tottenham

"Mctominay is not a wide player, so it is fine he does not work on his crossinng" "AWB is just a right back, it is fine as long as he does his tackling right, attacking is a bonus" , etc, is just a mentality that explains why we are so poor right now. Everyone is content with imperfections and limitations with no will to improve, that's why we are no longer an elite club.
 
They may have downed tools or may be they are not good enough. Either way, they must be sold.
 
If you have a small company of 20-50 people you depend on your core team. You need 5-10 with the right attitude who are setting the tone. Who are giving your company the base standard, the rest will always orientate themselves on them. If young new members are joining the company, they adjust to this core teams work ethic and adapt to expected behaviour and opinions inside and outside of work.

In a football team you have a smaller number of players, but also staff members who can be part of your core team. For me, Manchester United has a problems with his core team since Fergie and also other leaders left their active roles at the club.
Sometimes it works if you have someone coming in like Guardiola with his team, he immediatly takes over the core roles with his staff and needs only to find 1-2 players to become part of it in order to adjust the mentality, but I dont see this as possible for young or so far unsuccessful coaches.

Define the current core team of Manchester United. Who are the 5-10 players/staff members setting the tone and see if they are the right ones to do it.
If not, you might not need Bellingham, Dembele or even Mbappe but first a core of leaders to enable all this good guys to become great.
 
This idea that they just arnt good enough is bullsht. They are better than Leicester. They are better than Watford. Better than Newcastle. Better than Middlesbrough. And on and on and on. Its got nothing to do with ability. Yes getting beat to a top 4 team or even Atletico you can say yeah not enough talent. But its not an excuse or being beaten by crap teams.
So is it that they just arnt trying? Well watch the game. Everyone said its like a friendly. No energy. No fight. Nothing. And again you can make excuses for a one off game but its happened all season so thats not an excuse.
The only get out is that its a mental issue. Beyond just losing confidence. Its systematic. Its like a disease. Maybe a culmination of dressing room problems, lack of leadership, players leaving and checked out mentally, players just checked out because we have only top 4 to play for, getting battered by City, Liverpool etc, players missing Ole and on and on and on. Just sht after sht after sht. Now the players even though they want to play well cant. They are just fkd mentally. Sport is metal as much as physical. If your done mentally then your fkd.
 
JeffFromHK said:
Fletcher, Cleverley and Carrick weren't wide players as well, but they still managed to whip in good crosses here and there
https://www.premierleague.com/players/1943/Darren-Fletcher/stats
https://www.premierleague.com/players/3448/Tom-Cleverley/stats
https://www.premierleague.com/players/1634/Michael-Carrick/stats

the fact that a cross is considered a "success" (i.e. hitting a teammate) does not mean it is a good cross. I cant even recall McTominay doing a cross like how Cleverley assisted Welbeck and RVP, both vs Tottenham

"Mctominay is not a wide player, so it is fine he does not work on his crossinng" "AWB is just a right back, it is fine as long as he does his tackling right, attacking is a bonus" , etc, is just a mentality that explains why we are so poor right now. Everyone is content with imperfections and limitations with no will to improve, that's why we are no longer an elite club.
Click to expand...

Fletcher started on the right wing, so carry on with those facts.
I care not if his crossing is poor or good, it’s not a major factor in his game. If you think he’s going to become a better player if he ‘works on his crossing’ I simply do not agree, he has other areas he needs to focus on, passing, ball retention and making himself available to receive a pass.
Not sure where you get I don’t think AWB needs to work on his crosses? Or did you just make that up as well?
 
The manager is not the main problem. Changing managers won't solve the main problems at the club.
 
The reason on why they downed tools is easy, the "man united way" of always sticking by our "own". It was clear that we'd finally find a crop of players to take advantge of it, especially after SAF left.

Who in the feck wouod not come here and down tools for 200g per week?

We need a complete clearout even if it sounds harsh, otherwise next year we'll complain about the same thing.
 
Anyone that thinks these bunch are going to get good over night because of ETH is deluded
 
Downing tools is too strong. We're just generally not that good in players and management. Cavani masked over a lot of problems last season and helped us with a relatively strong point finish that really was a net 4th. We were lucky to get 2nd as Lampard had Chelsea in 11th and Pool had their defence taken out. These two teams finished the season in better form with a new coach and key players back and was clear for anyone watching they'd be back to their best and United were fighting for 4th at best this season, some thought we'd be challenging. We're firmly in the 4th to 6th bracket and have been most of the time. Cavani is not here to help this team now sadly, he got important goals and did a lot work that other players struggle with last season. Our other players have been really poor all season and a couple have gone like Greenwood.

We've paid a lot of fees and wages on average players, brought in average coaches and ended up average and get bombed out the CL every time we qualify as we can't handle it in there. Even at our best it was playing well for about 5-10 mins game to game and being lethal in the counter.

The dearth in quality and creativity has been so apparent for years, many of players were here during our 2019/20 spell in the bottom half to midtable, we signed Bruno in Jan and he was immense in making us work. I would encourage people to go back and watch our players in those matches struggle to play football and create before Bruno as I still see that week in week out to this day. Our footballing core is so rubbish for the size of the club and money spent. Our one trick pony of Bruno playing in a Rashford/Martial/Greenwood is gone, we got elevated into 70+ points through the work of Cavani who is pretty much dead this season.
 
UpWithRivers said:
This idea that they just arnt good enough is bullsht. They are better than Leicester. They are better than Watford. Better than Newcastle. Better than Middlesbrough. And on and on and on. Its got nothing to do with ability. Yes getting beat to a top 4 team or even Atletico you can say yeah not enough talent. But its not an excuse or being beaten by crap teams.
So is it that they just arnt trying? Well watch the game. Everyone said its like a friendly. No energy. No fight. Nothing. And again you can make excuses for a one off game but its happened all season so thats not an excuse.
The only get out is that its a mental issue. Beyond just losing confidence. Its systematic. Its like a disease. Maybe a culmination of dressing room problems, lack of leadership, players leaving and checked out mentally, players just checked out because we have only top 4 to play for, getting battered by City, Liverpool etc, players missing Ole and on and on and on. Just sht after sht after sht. Now the players even though they want to play well cant. They are just fkd mentally. Sport is metal as much as physical. If your done mentally then your fkd.
Click to expand...
Teams around 5th-8th lose to poor teams often, that why they are where they are. The reality is we're no better than that. I've been saying it for years.
 
Leftback99 said:
Teams around 5th-8th lose to poor teams often, that why they are where they are. The reality is we're no better than that. I've been saying it for years.
Click to expand...

And if you apply his logic to the future champions then how many times did they downed tools? Because at best they failed to win 7 games that they presumably were expected to win. Last season City won 27 games that was some incredible down tooling.
 
tenpoless said:
Because the tools that downed tools will be sold.
Click to expand...

Some appear to not care.
Many are just not good enough.
Not as good as they think
Not as good as we think

If a player is not good enough, the fact he is playing for United regularly
Is the fault of the people assembling the squad full of mediocre talent.
But you can’t blame them for taking the opportunity.

A player who doesn’t appear interested is personally at fault.
They are the ones I dislike the most.
 
The next manager will likely also fail. We're once again blinded by optimism and a 'fresh start' but its more likely we end up with the next villas boas type result than the next klopp. This team is a toxic mess and there's a decade of rot from top to bottom of the club
 
Pure delusional thinking.

I don't remember bissaka, telles, ronaldo, cavani, elanga, sancho, beek, Maguire, varane, fernandes playing under mourinho? And don't tell me mctominay, fred, matic, mata, de gea and rashford downed tools under mourinho.

The reality is the only constant thing that will continue to fail our managers is piss poor long term planning from top to bottom of this club.

The blame points squarely at the glazers, the only long term planning they have been interested in is commercially milking this club dry and were dumb enough to employ woodward to overlook the footballing structure within the club who clearly had no clue what he was doing and has employed two past it managers and 3 bang average managers whilst blowing potential opportunities to hire potchettino on two separate occasions, conte on two separate occasions and klopp.
 
The club reward mediocrity with sky high wages. They then make it hard to move players on. In fact in some cases they renew contracts when all logic shows it is baffling why they do it. If the Glazers are happy with top 4 only, as many have said, why do they make it so hard to achieve by rewarding this mediocrity?
 
youmeletsfly said:
The reason on why they downed tools is easy, the "man united way" of always sticking by our "own". It was clear that we'd finally find a crop of players to take advantge of it, especially after SAF left.

Who in the feck wouod not come here and down tools for 200g per week?

We need a complete clearout even if it sounds harsh, otherwise next year we'll complain about the same thing.
Click to expand...

Interesting thought. I was discussing this with a friend the other day and he told me that, even though Mourinho was one of the worst things that happened to United, he was actually the best thing that happened to some of these players. It's not about him failing at United, since not a single post-Fergie appointment can be deemed a success. It's more about his belligerent character, his egocentricity and his overall demeanour that have turned, from a quality of his, into his kryptonite as he's going down the tiers of top-level management. Add to this the preconceived notion within a huge part of the fans that he was not and never would have been the right fit for United, and you get a peculiar result after the end of his tenure.

It somehow seemed to solidify the belief, both in and around the club, that we already had most of what we need to challenge at our disposal. It would take time, of course, for the talent to reach its full potential, but most of the pieces were already there. The only problem was the toxicity. All we needed was a manager compatible with the -as you call it- United way of sticking by your own to nurture these players and also go for a few targeted signings. And the club acted accordingly by offering ridiculous wages left, right and centre. What we got was three years of the fans of the other PL clubs laughing at us and admitting openly that they wish for us to win just the right amount of matches so that Solskjaer would keep his job because they understood that everybody at United was living in la-la Land. Of course, the players will take the money and, of course, whenever the push comes to shove, they'll try to save their skins by hiding behind the manager's failures.

I mentioned elsewhere that Solskjaer's downfall didn't come out of the blue at the start of this season. It began the moment he went from saying "i will be a success here but i can't say the same for some players", after the 4-0 hammering at Goodison, to blaming the "internet fans" for demanding transfers in his first pre-season interview. This season, with Ronnie-Varane and Sancho coming to OT to complete the puzzle, it was just the peak of the delusion this club has been living in for many years.
 
We aren't a football club anymore. We are just a brand and money spinner. The board are more interested in social media interactions than a title challenge.

Erik Ten Hag isnt going to succeed under this useless hierarchy. They just don't get it and never will. They don't see they are the issue.
 
They should get ready to play elsewhere. The only ones I'd keep are Sancho, Varane, Fred, Dalot and McTominay. Dalot is on a tiny wage and could still develop further. McTominay is also on a tiny wage and is useful for back up. Fred can be really good with an actual DM. Loan or keep Elanga.

Get rid of everyone else. Priority given to the likes of Rashford, Martial, Pogba, Lingard.
 
Just drained in mediocrity and rewarded for nothing. And it steams from the top like in any organisation.
 
I just think they dont work well as team the right balance isnt there. We dont have a recognised right winger at the club and persist on using Elanga who isnt good enough to be a starter. Season is dead, we need to bring a few youth players in and see how they get on and we might gel better as a team.

McT not good enough, Pogba shouldnt be near the first team at all. Maguire doesnt have the pace we need to play high up the pitch, can we get a new defender and stick him as a holding midfielder?
RB and LB need upgrading, we need a RW and a CF, and also a CDM and MID.

Leaving:

Jones
Lingard
Pogba
Mata
McT
Martial

This is who I think needs shifting on and some of them will be leaving. Also need to get Greenwood off the books and free up his wage, he will never be back in the team regardless of the outcome of the trial.
 
VidaRed said:
Only pogba, rashford, lingard, martial, shaw look like they're experienced in downing tools. The rest are just not good enough at this level.
Click to expand...
I think it's a mix of being lazy and being overrated.
 
Jim Beam said:
Just drained in mediocrity and rewarded for nothing. And it steams from the top like in any organisation.
Click to expand...
do you think players care less because they get paid so much, if they look at the likes of City and Liverpool are they thinking we cant compete with them so are happy enough picking up a pay cheque each week and apply minimal effort? Seems that way, any other lower placed team their players put a shift in and fight for the team, maybe to get rewarded with a move to bigger club.
 
royboy16 said:
Dont be surprised if the same thing happens under the next manager.
Click to expand...

Only if the next manager keeps the players.

The new man should totally refresh the squad and it doesn't matter how long it takes

Get shot of 90% of the shams
 
royboy16 said:
Its going to take time to get rid of them all, will the manager survive long enough to do so Im not so sure ?
Click to expand...

Agreed but I'm willing to wait. Tired of looking at Jogba and friends sink lower and lower into mediocrity
 
You must log in or register to reply here.