They downed tools for Jose, they downed tools for Ole, now they've downed tools for Rangnick, why won't they down tools for the next manager?

Moby said:
I'd love if you check the Liverpool starting eleven that reached the cl final where the lost due to the keeper and apply the exact same logic. The players you are calling elite for them had little to no proven success in the past and had been regarded as nowhere near useful for a top team. Caf uses to laugh at the prospect of us signing Mane like it is laughing at our players now in the same vein and that's how they were treated. And they reached the cl final with that team. Put the same team at United in the last few years and they'd be knocked out in the group stages and we'd be saying the same stuff like there not good enough.

Leeds have had a bunch of injuries to key players but I'll tell you this despite the whole rivalry and never looking at them favourably in the past I can't be more envious about their fans and how they have a team who never backs down out of giving their 100% on the pitch no matter what. I actually make a point to watch them because it feels far more rewarding investing my time in watching a team that guy gives importance to the club and the fans and put every ounce of effort out there and aren't a bunch of overpaid mercenaries who are only here to get the paycheck and couldn't care less about the performances.

I'm not trying to argue we don't need better players but anyone who thinks the current lot has been giving their best in every minute of every game last few years needs to go out and watch some other teams who have done well. I mean Maguire and Shaw literally were the mainstay of the England team that reached the final of the euro few months back. Shaw scored in a big final. People were literally talking about our backline as one of the best on the back of that. None of that was the figment of our imagination.
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This is part of the problem, they were nothing special for England either. We massively overrated them for beating weak opposition and looking crap in the final. England did not pl well.
 
Moby said:
I'd love if you check the Liverpool starting eleven that reached the cl final where the lost due to the keeper and apply the exact same logic. The players you are calling elite for them had little to no proven success in the past and had been regarded as nowhere near useful for a top team. Caf uses to laugh at the prospect of us signing Mane like it is laughing at our players now in the same vein and that's how they were treated. And they reached the cl final with that team. Put the same team at United in the last few years and they'd be knocked out in the group stages and we'd be saying the same stuff like there not good enough.

Leeds have had a bunch of injuries to key players but I'll tell you this despite the whole rivalry and never looking at them favourably in the past I can't be more envious about their fans and how they have a team who never backs down out of giving their 100% on the pitch no matter what. I actually make a point to watch them because it feels far more rewarding investing my time in watching a team that guy gives importance to the club and the fans and put every ounce of effort out there and aren't a bunch of overpaid mercenaries who are only here to get the paycheck and couldn't care less about the performances.

I'm not trying to argue we don't need better players but anyone who thinks the current lot has been giving their best in every minute of every game last few years needs to go out and watch some other teams who have done well. I mean Maguire and Shaw literally were the mainstay of the England team that reached the final of the euro few months back. Shaw scored in a big final. People were literally talking about our backline as one of the best on the back of that. None of that was the figment of our imagination.
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Your first paragraph makes little sense for two reasons first because when Liverpool were inconsistent during Klopp's first years people weren't claiming that the players were downing tools, people accepted the limitations of these players. The team that went to the CL final went to that final after developments, yes these players weren't elite but some of them developped into it, some joined them at that elite level. Currently our group of player isn't elite and we can't expect consistent elite level of performances, one of the key points about players that are not elite is inconsistency.

And going to the final of tournament doesn't make you elite, otherwise Dado Prso would be an elite striker and I can assure you that he wasn't.
 
Hammondo said:
This is part of the problem, they were nothing special for England either. We massively overrated them for beating weak opposition and looking crap in the final. England did not pl well.
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They weren't sensational but still solid enough to get the results in a huge tournament which they almost won. At least they weren't making pathetic clown error like Maguire did vs City etc. It's not like people are complaining at them not winning the league. They get humiliated by teams with absolute nobodies and turn up without any improvement in the next game. There's a very obvious difference in motivation with them.
 
Stack said:
The players downing tools indicates that maybe they are good enough but then there are so many players the caf thinks arent good enough. Which is it?
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I think it’s a bit of both. Although I think downing tools is a bit of a misnomer that draws on old fashioned British ideas of masculinity. They’re not intentionally giving up, they just have fragile egos and aren’t able to pull themselves out of the black hole in a toxic environment. The end result is they’re playing without belief or determination. But it seems pretty obvious they’re both lacking in quality and lacking in motivation.
 
JPRouve said:
Why people struggle with this very simple concept. This group of player never downed tools, they are just not an elite group of players.
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Because its easier to get angry about players who aren't committed, rather than just not good enough to challenge for trophies.
 
Moby said:
They weren't sensational but still solid enough to get the results in a huge tournament which they almost won. At least they weren't making pathetic clown error like Maguire did vs City etc. It's not like people are complaining at them not winning the league. They get humiliated by teams with absolute nobodies and turn up without any improvement in the next game. There's a very obvious difference in motivation with them.
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We played a defensive game where he had a lot of protection. That's the only type of games he's been good at.
 
JPRouve said:
And going to the final of tournament doesn't make you elite, otherwise Dado Prso would be an elite striker and I can assure you that he wasn't.
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The audacity of a united fan saying that currently. We literally need last minute comebacks in group stage games despite signing the so called best attacking talent in Europe for a fortune. But let's now acknowledge how other clubs can take players who were written off not long ago and be a keeper error away from winning the cl. They suddenly developed their talents over a year or two.
 
fastwalker said:
Sorry, but your statement is ridiculous on its face. So, let's get this straight shall we, your contention is that the United squad, even if it performs to its potential is only good enough, after 30 games, to be 20 points off the top? Is that your contention? So essentially you would excuse the squad on the grounds that they lack the quality to perform any better? If that is what you are inferring then it is dotty!

The Manchester United side that took the field today included 11 internationals and one World Cup winner. Our subs bench included internationals including a World Cup winner. When fit, we also have a five time Ballon D'or winner to add to our ranks. Quite apart from the fact that we have had our pants pulled down in the transfer market, we have a squad of players clearly playing below their potential this season. Compared to this time last season we are nine points worse off. Yet squad-wise, this season we have added Sancho, Verane and Ronaldo. By your logic, Sancho (one of the most exciting prospects in world football), Verane (a World Cup and four time Champions League winner) and Ronaldo (a four time Champions League winner) are not elite? Are you serious?

Whilst I think we lack the consistency to be keeping pace with Liverpool and and City, to say that we should be 20 points worse off than them and behind Arsenal, suggests that some people are not thinking straight.
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I said as group, I didn't isolate players, so what you did isn't my logic. And the 6th team in the PL will have plenty of international players that's not special, it doesn't make your team elite. I our group elite is when you look at it's compared to actual elite teams. How many of our players would start for the current top teams.

And consistency is part of being elite, it's a quality that high level players possess, average players aren't average because they can't play at a high level but because they generally can't sustain it. That's why someone like Wilfried Bony or Benteke can have a season were he is close to elite players and then looks like an average player.
 
I think we’ve all fallen for the media hype about us having a collection of “world class players.” I actually believe and have done for a while that we have a collection of average players with the odd exception. I’m not sure it’s about downing fools and poor mindset, I believe it’s down to the lack of quality technical footballers in this squad.
 
Moby said:
The audacity of a united fan saying that currently. We literally need last minute comebacks in group stage games despite signing the so called best attacking talent in Europe for a fortune. But let's now acknowledge how other clubs can take players who were written off not long ago and be a keeper error away from winning the cl. They suddenly developed their talents over a year or two.
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Where is the audacity? And I don't really understand the rest of your post, it has no relation with the points I made.
 
JPRouve said:
How many of our players would start for the current top teams.
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How much time has it been since a striker who was kicked out of united for being lazy limited shite first touch and what not went on to win the serie a winning the footballer of the year and earning a 100m transfer to a team that's 12 points ahead of us? He will be playing in cl next season while we sit and continue to shuffle squads after making them look useless in this toxic environment.
 
JPRouve said:
Where is the audacity? And I don't really understand the rest of your post, it has no relation with the points I made.
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There's a massive cheek in downplaying reaching the cl final for someone who supports a top club that is hopeless at the same competition. Nevermind ignoring the difference the right atmosphere management and players responding with 100% commitment can make and get results despite not having 10-11 world class players.
 
adexkola said:
Barring Klopp and Pep leaving the PL followed by the collapse of their teams, challenging for the PL against those 2 sides (argument for being the best in Europe) would have us as a top 5 European side

I agree with those weakest points, but beyond player acquisitions, we need a lot of work on the training field. We are so bad, relative to top sides, at the basic fundamentals of football. Fixing that will not be overnight even with the right manager.
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I think its defeatist to wait it out for Klopp and Pep to leave. We have the resources to challenge, we have some good players low on confidence and whilst we are in need of a rebuild it's doable.

I think many will be surprised by what a top manager can do for this side particularly if he is well supported and I am not naive enough to expect a title challenge next term either. But if we do the right things in the summer we can get back into the CL and if build on that there is no telling where we will land in a couple of seasons. Liverpool were a joke for decades before they brought in the right manager.
 
lsd said:
This is my fear, i cannot see these players putting the effort in certainly not for Ten Hag and most likely not for Pochettino either.

People talk about a clear out but the problem is much to deep for getting rid of 6 or 7 players.

Ten Hag is not going to command the players respect and while a lot of the team may prefer Pochettino i doubt they will make any more effort than they currently do
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The bolded part is something I've heard a lot and, if true, is a clear indication of the dire situation the club finds itself in. All of the problems mentioned above, inflated wages and renewed contracts etc.....and the egos. Who cares what the team prefer, it's what's right for the club. Get the new manager in, if a player isn't happy, suck it up. Take your chances, put yourself in the shop window and then thin out.

No-one is bigger than the club, but until we get rid of a number of this team, specifically the high earners, I fear that this is just a cycle that will repeat and repeat with manager after manager being undermined.
 
hobbers said:
Lukaku is shite though, and already on Chelsea's scrapheap. That one wasn't on us.
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The poster was asking whether players shit at United can get into a top club. And the fact is that a player widely criticized for his time here especially for the exact same reasons as the current players earned a place for the club that had just won the cl. So that answers their question.
 
Moby said:
There's a massive cheek in downplaying reaching the cl final for someone who supports a top club that is hopeless at the same competition. Nevermind ignoring the difference the right atmosphere management and players responding with 100% commitment can make and get results despite not having 10-11 world class players.
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That's not what I did, I said that reaching the final of tournament doesn't make a player elite. And who ignored the points that you made in that second sentence? And who mentioned the need to have 10-11 world class players?

It feels like you are conversing with someone else.
 
Moby said:
How much time has it been since a striker who was kicked out of united for being lazy limited shite first touch and what not went on to win the serie a winning the footballer of the year and earning a 100m transfer to a team that's 12 points ahead of us? He will be playing in cl next season while we sit and continue to shuffle squads after making them look useless in this toxic environment.
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So you mention players that are not employed by United?
 
Carl said:
Precisely this.
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Watch how Rashford and Shaw play, they clearly don't give a toss. It's a mixture of both that these players don't care and they aren't good enough.

Apart from the kids, i can't stand any of them.
 
JPRouve said:
That's not what I did, I said that reaching the final of tournament doesn't make a player elite. And who ignored the points that you made in that second sentence? And who mentioned the need to have 10-11 world class players?

It feels like you are conversing with someone else.
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The point that you've made is that the current squad can't do better than what they are right now because that's as good as they can perform. What I'm saying is that a big reason of their performance is not just down to their talent but also their motivation which is the subject of the thread. Under the right atmosphere and being far more concentrated themselves they can easily win a bunch of games in which we've dropped points this season. I've given a few examples where the same players improved leaps and bounds and achieves great success thanks to changing the mental state on the pitch and theres plethora of others. So same goes for this squad. If they genuinely give their 100% and show better motivation they'd instantly be a million times better on the pitch and we can potentially achieve similar success. Not sure if it can be simplified further.
 
JPRouve said:
So you mention players that are not employed by United?
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Exactly the same.was said about Lukaku what is being said about our current players. Its been a pattern for years under multiple managers which is exactly what op is saying. We constantly throw money of players with high reputation and 'talent' and within a few months of joining the club there are a 1000 flaws that start coming out. It can't be that we have completely mistaken the level.of the player so many times. Even vastly experienced players like Bastien Zlatan etc have come here and lost interest in performing. Zlatan has talked about how united is a shit place to work and turns most good players into looking clueless and that's exactly what it is with the current squad.
 
Moby said:
The point that you've made is that the current squad can't do better than what they are right now because that's as good as they can perform. What I'm saying is that a big reason of their performance is not just down to their talent but also their motivation which is the subject of the thread. Under the right atmosphere and being far more concentrated themselves they can easily win a bunch of games in which we've dropped points this season. I've given a few examples where the same players improved leaps and bounds and achieves great success thanks to changing the mental state on the pitch and theres plethora of others. So same goes for this squad. If they genuinely give their 100% and show better motivation they'd instantly be a million times better on the pitch and we can potentially achieve similar success. Not sure if it can be simplified further.
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No, I said that they didn't down tools and that as a group they are not elite players. I also mentioned the lack of elite coaching in this thread
JPRouve said:
The commercial point is a non-starter it has not been a thing at United.

The rest is true but beside the point of the OP because building a team is the main point of a manager, every single team starts with a group of individuals and the role of the manager is to push the correct buttons and manage to bring these individuals together. Which bring us to a very important point that some refure to accept, United have not had an elite manager since SAF retired.
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JPRouve said:
But that's what elite clubs do year after year. They need all of that to be and remain elite, smart acquisitions, a top manager and hard work on the training ground. United isn't different.
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You clearly have no idea about what I think and didn't bother to ask. At no point did I suggest that they couldn't become elite or that the correct manager environment wouldn't make a difference.
 
OnlyTwoDaSilvas said:
Are we really downing tools? It happens so frequently that I'm more inclined to believe that this is just how shit we are.
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Mike Smalling said:
They didn’t down tools, it’s just that the tools are shite.
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Many of these players have shown in the past that they're much better than this. Quite a few of them are still much better than this anytime they go and play for their national teams. For whatever reason, they simply aren't performing to the best of their ability at United. We've seen them do much better, either before they came to United, or even at United for their first season or two. Then their performances turn to shit, but it's not as if the players just magically forgot how to play football. Surely nobody genuinely believes that this is their level and that the caliber of our players is simply such that struggling against the likes of Leicester is natural and expected.
 
glazed said:
Partly this but mostly that football is a team sport and this is a group of individuals. As soon as you try to stamp an identity on them half of them don't fit. And for years under Ole nobody even tried to coach them into being a team. Instead he just nodded and smiled while they bought in random players according to the dictates of a commercial algorithm.
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Very good post.
 
JPRouve said:
No, I said that they didn't down tools and that as a group they are not elite players
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That's exactly what I've written as well. A huge reason for their current performance which is below par is their own motivation and their current ability should be getting far better results than we have simply by them putting up a better fight and showing better concentration. Those are mental issues that is currently restricting our results.
 
Moby said:
That's exactly what I've written as well. A huge reason for their current performance which is below par is their own motivation and their current ability should be getting far better results than we have simply by them putting up a better fight and showing better concentration. Those are mental issues that is currently restricting our results.
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And that's why as a group they are not elite, mental fortitude is a quality that elite athletes possess. And when they initially don't possess it, elite managers can sometimes instill it.
 
Dansk said:
Many of these players have shown in the past that they're much better than this. Quite a few of them are still much better than this anytime they go and play for their national teams. For whatever reason, they simply aren't performing to the best of their ability at United. We've seen them do much better, either before they came to United, or even at United for their first season or two. Then their performances turn to shit, but it's not as if the players just magically forgot how to play football. Surely nobody genuinely believes that this is their level and that the caliber of our players is simply such that struggling against the likes of Leicester is natural and expected.
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In short bursts though and that's part of the problem sadly. No one is saying that players can't have bad games now and then but i can count on one hand the players who have played well for at least two consecutive seasons or anything like an elite standard at United. And they do get elite wages for pretty inconsistent performances.
 
If club management has shown that they are ready to throw the season away and ride it out, don’t expect a lot of our players to act differently. The shit starts from the top and trickles downhill. No manager or team will succeed under this ownership, where there is no ambition and no accountability.

Another club would have done everything to save the season after the Liverpool loss. Instead, they didn’t have a back-up plan for Ole, they waited way too long to sack him, and bought nobody in January to reinforce the squad and turn the season around.

The players are not blameless, of course, but there is also a reason behind their lack of motivation.
 
abaka said:
I’m not even sure they ever picked up tools for Rangnick
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True. They never bought into his philosophy and he was forced to revert back to their favored 4-2-3-1 formation. Even then, results didn’t improve.
 
JPRouve said:
I said as group, I didn't isolate players, so what you did isn't my logic. And the 6th team in the PL will have plenty of international players that's not special, it doesn't make your team elite. I our group elite is when you look at it's compared to actual elite teams. How many of our players would start for the current top teams.

And consistency is part of being elite, it's a quality that high level players possess, average players aren't average because they can't play at a high level but because they generally can't sustain it. That's why someone like Wilfried Bony or Benteke can have a season were he is close to elite players and then looks like an average player.
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Didnt Djimi Traore have a CL winners medal? Marcus Rojo is a world cup finalist. I agree, its consistency. Luke Shaw at his best is fantastic. But he’s had 2 good seasons in 8 here. Maguire has been fantastic for us and England but has had an entire year of shite form. Same applies for Rashford - turd on current form but has been world class. We need these players to regain their best or they need to be replaced. What they have done internationally etc doesnt matter.
 
JPRouve said:
Why people struggle with this very simple concept. This group of player never downed tools, they are just not an elite group of players.
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Yeah it's bizarre alright, the team/squad has never been good enough to win the league since LVG assembled a pile of shite that Mourinho and Solskjaer inherited. And while the players have played their part the managers haven't been good enough either. Inevitably losing the dressing room and then the plot shortly after. Jose was past it, Ole was never a top manager and Ralf is both an average manager and past it.
 
tentan said:
Also downed tools for Moyes and Van Gaal
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No they didn't. How many of the players are the same? Looking at Jose's EL final team, there's Rashford, Pogba, DDG, Lingard and Mata. The rest are gone.
 
Only pogba, rashford, lingard, martial, shaw look like they're experienced in downing tools. The rest are just not good enough at this level.
 
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