Not really, if you consider our players as a group, they have not played elite Football. We have EL, borderline CL level players at the exception of three or four players.
They downed tools for Jose, they downed tools for Ole, now they've downed tools for Rangnick, why won't they down tools for the next manager?
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Not really, if you consider our players as a group, they have not played elite Football. We have EL, borderline CL level players at the exception of three or four players.
But that's what elite clubs do year after year. They need all of that to be and remain elite, smart acquisitions, a top manager and hard work on the training ground. United isn't different.
Downed tools, lord
Huh?
Only a handful of our players have ever been "elite" level or great for their country. Nevermind presently.
We have very few players in each position that are world class. We have very few players that are within the top 10 or so players in their position. However you wish to define terms, within most reasonable definitions our players don't fall into being elite.
Who are these elite players? Ronaldo, absolutely - although nobody goes on forever. Pogba, intermittently for his country. Varane, has been a world class operator at some point, granted. That's 3 players out of a squad of 25-30.
This is it, it's a squad with some talented players but also a lot of bad signings that doesn't really fit together. Last year the main quality of this side was it's ability to fight back in games, they often started them looking clueless because they weren't properly prepared and they're not that good but they came back in games largely due to them not quitting. The spirit of the team looks broken right now and they look directionless but I don't think all of these players are unwilling to apply themselves, they wouldn't have gotten to be Premier League players if they weren't capable of that level of application .
A significant chunk of this squad has to change to build a team that actually makes sense but also if we get a genuinely top quality coach in their prime (which we haven't had post Ferguson given that by the time he arrived Mourinho wasn't doing as much hands on work day to day and seemed to be offended by the idea that he had to improve individual players) then some of the others that people are writing off will suddenly be more inspired and will be trained to the point that they will show qualities that they haven't done recently.
Until Guardiola turned up that City squad was seen as hugely talented but liable to resting on their laurels after a bit of success (their 2 title defences before he turned up were poor). He cleared out the guys that he didn't think were up to it, mostly due to a lack of talent rather than character or effort, and replaced them with better players while getting more consistency and ruthlessness out of players who had been susceptible to slacking off under previous managers. It's about getting recruitment right but also being better at getting players to reach their potential.
They're not downing tools, they're just simply shit
"They" are a bunch of overpaid wankers with zero hunger and winning mentality.
The "They" at this club needs to change asap. Squad clearout needed. The longer these players pollute the club the more United's stock will fall.
4 of the 5 highest players in the league play for United. Clearly the money is there. The club needs to act fast before Arsenal and the likes replace United permanently in the top 4.
It's embarrassing how much hype the likes of Rashford got from the United fans.
Ole's cringeworthy "cultural reset" have given these players a complacency which has set United back further.
Get a new manager and buy players suiting his formation, philosophy and ideas.
The "They" at this club needs to change asap. Squad clearout needed. The longer these players pollute the club the more United's stock will fall.
4 of the 5 highest players in the league play for United. Clearly the money is there. The club needs to act fast before Arsenal and the likes replace United permanently in the top 4.
It's embarrassing how much hype the likes of Rashford got from the United fans.
Ole's cringeworthy "cultural reset" have given these players a complacency which has set United back further.
Get a new manager and buy players suiting his formation, philosophy and ideas.
The commercial point is a non-starter it has not been a thing at United.
The rest is true but beside the point of the OP because building a team is the main point of a manager, every single team starts with a group of individuals and the role of the manager is to push the correct buttons and manage to bring these individuals together. Which bring us to a very important point that some refure to accept, United have not had an elite manager since SAF retired.
They aren’t good players
I think players are trying, I honestly think fitness standards have just been so off for a while now it’s impossible to expect this group to suddenly play the way Ragnick wants. There are some overrated players in there but most are individually top quality and tend to turn up for their national teams. You can’t fix fitness issues in elite sport mid season - you can just maintain and recover so we won’t see any different until the new manager comes in.
Well drilled players who give their all can give any team a game, no matter what the opposition. ’Downing tools’ might be extreme but it’s clear they aren’t extending themselves.
People take the piss about ‘pashun’ and players that ‘run around like headless chicken’ but that’s exactly what this team needs - its a club that is devoid of it and we’re just going through the motions.
People take the piss about ‘pashun’ and players that ‘run around like headless chicken’ but that’s exactly what this team needs - its a club that is devoid of it and we’re just going through the motions.
We are not different. We are just not elite, which is why I agree with you. But if someone thinks that Ten Hag will instantly have this team challenging for the league without major reconstruction I can see why they think that our current performance levels are due to downing tools or inefficient coaching.
I don't know if major reconstruction is the term, we need to add quality and that quality needs to target our weakest points which are finishing, creativity, ball retention and positioning in central midfield. In theory it doesn't require a major reconstruction but these points are so weak that it puts the floors of the team fairly low.
Now maybe you are thinking about being one of the top 4-5 teams in Europe and in that case it will take major improvements, money, luck and hard work.
Barring Klopp and Pep leaving the PL followed by the collapse of their teams, challenging for the PL against those 2 sides (argument for being the best in Europe) would have us as a top 5 European side
I agree with those weakest points, but beyond player acquisitions, we need a lot of work on the training field. We are so bad, relative to top sides, at the basic fundamentals of football. Fixing that will not be overnight even with the right manager.
The players downing tools indicates that maybe they are good enough but then there are so many players the caf thinks arent good enough. Which is it?
We are going to sell most of them anyway, I hope.
Does it? It's possible to have a squad of players that are not good enough to reach whatever fan perception of our goals are, but that they also down tools to make the situation even worse. I don't think they're mutually exclusive.
Personally I think we're just a fairly poor, unbalanced squad of players with many names that have a reputation above what they have actually demonstrated in football. Most of what they have done to earn it is simply by association with Manchester United, it's a case of what we've done for them rather than what they've given to us. There are a few exceptions to this. But we're clearly low on belief, structure and team ethic as well, meaning we're even worse than the sum of our parts.
They will, that's why we need to get rid as many as possible.
Even Bruno shouldn't have been given a new contract. Been terrible in virtually every big game bar liverpool fa cup. Had his best season in front of zero fans. Moans. Doesn't have positional discipline.
We need young players. Players with potential but not yet stars. We can't give huge wages for potential anymore. No more star signings.
Even Bruno shouldn't have been given a new contract. Been terrible in virtually every big game bar liverpool fa cup. Had his best season in front of zero fans. Moans. Doesn't have positional discipline.
We need young players. Players with potential but not yet stars. We can't give huge wages for potential anymore. No more star signings.
There are plenty of examples in the past at United and at other clubs of players being average or limited in various areas being constantly part of highly successful teams. The current Liverpool team is one of the best in pl history and has had a bunch of players who weren't elite individually but contributed highly and did their job with 200% commitment. While it has been apparent for ages that some of our current players simply don't care enough about what happens on the pitch. You go and watch Leeds in the first half today who took a very decent Southampton team to the cleaners for long parts. One of those was Dan James, booted out of united for being shite and yes while he is shite there's a world of difference in his effort if you watch him today vs when he was at United. You could see the whole bunch fighting for every second, third ball. Making lung bursting runs up and down. With better finishing they would have scored a few easily but regardless if there's one thing that is common across any good team it's relentless effort with zero compromise. City as much talent as they have you'd never see a player losing the ball and jogging back without giving a feck. So ya it's not rocket science to say the majority of our players are disinterested in performing to their best and that's been apparent to see for ages now.I'm actually hiding my emotions, in real life I would be shouting at the OP.
I don't understand why people keep making claims like "they are downing tools!". We are talking about players that have for the most part next to no track record of success, most of them have extremely obvious footballing flaws whether we are talking about athleticism, technique or decision making. They didn't decide to not be elite just to spite a manager, managers who by the way were/are themselves far from elite.
Also let's be clear about something mental fortitude is part of being elite, it's not something that you control, it can be ingrained in you by tutors during your formative years but you don't switch it on and off.
There is a lot of issue with this squad, they are way to dumb to figure out how to down tools on the first place. They are overpaid, rewarded for failure etc. life is good for them, which leads to no hunger, the amount of players that shouldnt get contract extensions and increased wages is just fecking mental. They are like a desease, how many times since SAF, we had summer injections of new players that were really good at start of the season and then slowly decline dropping to their level. I truly believe that there is no world class player that would develop/improve even more after joining us.
This squad needs purging and wage reseting, let them leech some other clubs. How Corp. United is ran, only solution is to hire some wizard of a manager that gonna mega coach, improve them enough to present an illusion that they are really good.
This squad needs purging and wage reseting, let them leech some other clubs. How Corp. United is ran, only solution is to hire some wizard of a manager that gonna mega coach, improve them enough to present an illusion that they are really good.
There is truth to this.
Our best players all have huge flaws. CR7 is old, Pogba lacks aggression/concentration. Bruno either assists or gives the ball away. Sancho is slow for a wide player in England. DDG can't kick/communicate/come off his line to save his life. Fred gives the ball away cheaply.
Our hard working players lack skill. Our skilled players lack hard work. It's utter shambles.
In North America we have an expression when a team is shite - blow it up. Over here, if you rebuild and are shit you get a better chance of landing one of the best young players via the draft. We can't even look forward to that. Just hope Ten Hag performs miracles.
Yep this sums it up. The board just buy randomly or let managers, without any thought to long term squad building and how they would compliment each other.
I don't think they were ever good enough, they were massively overrated.
They have more and bigger weaknesses than you are saying.
Those successful United teams have consistently been built around a solid group of elite players, managed by the best manager in the world and supported by sometimes limited and average players and that's what Liverpool also have. Currently United do not have a solid group of elite players, the backbone of the team is based on limited and slightly above average players who are either lacking technically, mentally or athletically.
And were are Leeds in the table? Do you think that their positiion is due to downing tools?
I am aware. We have been demolished by so many sides it's depressing.
We should just sell these tools so they can’t down themselves.
Some good points, but on the Liverpool comparison - it seems a bit of a false equivalence.
How do we define quality? Surely it is the players that turn up week in week out, contribute to their side, produce great individual performances, and ultimately win things. That's what makes a top player and a top club, by definition. Klopp picks those players out regardless of prior reputation and then the output is the proof.
We have no right to say that any more than maybe 3-4 names fall into that category. Varane, Ronaldo and to a lesser extent Pogba are winning players with a record. Everyone else we're just praying for a manager to have a Klopp like transformation of them in order to turn sows ears into silk purses. There is no credible basis for saying being "highly successful" is possible with them. It is just blind, hopeful faith rather than saying we've got season upon season of failure to the name of this squad, maybe it's not happening.
The new manager is probably going to have a lot more of a task than getting us running about to reach any kind of definition of being highly successful. It would be a start, for sure. But there is probably a number of years of genius recruitment needed.
Indeed. I thought they looked pretty fit and worked hard throughout. If anything, the increased workrate showed up their lack of basic technical skill and awful decision making (even from Sancho) even more than when they are jogging around looking gassed.
What annoys me is when they go a goal down they seem to go into overdrive, get the goal back, then take their foot of the gas. Bunch of frauds.
Today was the level of game where you wonder why any of our players should be on more than their Leicester counterparts. I don't know how we justify the ridiculous increases and extensions internally.
Exactly this. This group of players do not gel together what so ever. We need to make a serious clear out.
It’s clearly the players. It’s been the players a long time.
Sorry, but your statement is ridiculous on its face. So, let's get this straight shall we, your contention is that the United squad, even if it performs to its potential is only good enough, after 30 games, to be 20 points off the top? Is that your contention? So essentially you would excuse the squad on the grounds that they lack the quality to perform any better? If that is what you are inferring then it is dotty!
The Manchester United side that took the field today included 11 internationals and one World Cup winner. Our subs bench included internationals including a World Cup winner. When fit, we also have a five time Ballon D'or winner to add to our ranks. Quite apart from the fact that we have had our pants pulled down in the transfer market, we have a squad of players clearly playing below their potential this season. Compared to this time last season we are nine points worse off. Yet squad-wise, this season we have added Sancho, Verane and Ronaldo. By your logic, Sancho (one of the most exciting prospects in world football), Verane (a World Cup and four time Champions League winner) and Ronaldo (a four time Champions League winner) are not elite? Are you serious?
Whilst I think we lack the consistency to be keeping pace with Liverpool and and City, to say that we should be 20 points worse off than them and behind Arsenal, suggests that some people are not thinking straight.
We need to get rid of the current culture within our squad and to do so we may need to get rid of some players which are seen as important in the team. The new manager needs to be given the power to get rid of whoever he wants and change whatever he wants within the club.
I would start with Rashford.
I would start with Rashford.
I'd love if you check the Liverpool starting eleven that reached the cl final where the lost due to the keeper and apply the exact same logic. The players you are calling elite for them had little to no proven success in the past and had been regarded as nowhere near useful for a top team. Caf uses to laugh at the prospect of us signing Mane like it is laughing at our players now in the same vein and that's how they were treated. And they reached the cl final with that team. Put the same team at United in the last few years and they'd be knocked out in the group stages and we'd be saying the same stuff like there not good enough.
Leeds have had a bunch of injuries to key players but I'll tell you this despite the whole rivalry and never looking at them favourably in the past I can't be more envious about their fans and how they have a team who never backs down out of giving their 100% on the pitch no matter what. I actually make a point to watch them because it feels far more rewarding investing my time in watching a team that guy gives importance to the club and the fans and put every ounce of effort out there and aren't a bunch of overpaid mercenaries who are only here to get the paycheck and couldn't care less about the performances.
I'm not trying to argue we don't need better players but anyone who thinks the current lot has been giving their best in every minute of every game last few years needs to go out and watch some other teams who have done well. I mean Maguire and Shaw literally were the mainstay of the England team that reached the final of the euro few months back. Shaw scored in a big final. People were literally talking about our backline as one of the best on the back of that. None of that was the figment of our imagination.
This!
Exactly this. There are plenty of games where we have only waken up after conceding and suddenly look threatening or at least far better at using the ball. There's a massive mental issue with this squad. And a lot of it is down to the club they're at.
I'm actually hiding my emotions, in real life I would be shouting at the OP.
I don't understand why people keep making claims like "they are downing tools!". We are talking about players that have for the most part next to no track record of success, most of them have extremely obvious footballing flaws whether we are talking about athleticism, technique or decision making. They didn't decide to not be elite just to spite a manager, managers who by the way were/are themselves far from elite.
Also let's be clear about something mental fortitude is part of being elite, it's not something that you control, it can be ingrained in you by tutors during your formative years but you don't switch it on and off.
This pretty much sums it up: most of our players feel difficulties if they have to make pases above 2nd station. The mental fortitude only works if you are inserted inside a storng mental squad, like happens at Porto for example. They have a strong core of aggressive and determined footballers and players who get into their club will instill that philosophy or simply fade away.
I’m not even sure they ever picked up tools for Rangnick
This is my fear, i cannot see these players putting the effort in certainly not for Ten Hag and most likely not for Pochettino either.
People talk about a clear out but the problem is much to deep for getting rid of 6 or 7 players.
Ten Hag is not going to command the players respect and while a lot of the team may prefer Pochettino i doubt they will make any more effort than they currently do
People talk about a clear out but the problem is much to deep for getting rid of 6 or 7 players.
Ten Hag is not going to command the players respect and while a lot of the team may prefer Pochettino i doubt they will make any more effort than they currently do