They downed tools for Jose, they downed tools for Ole, now they've downed tools for Rangnick, why won't they down tools for the next manager?

fastwalker

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Arithmetically, going into this match, we still had top four ambitions. In theory we still do. Unfortunately we come out of a game that we needed to win and could have lost, with a draw. I am struggling to wrap my head around what will motivate these players? We are currently looking to recruit a new manager and in theory, Ralf Rangnick will be on the payroll when the new manager arrives to give him the handover notes. Even if our players have decided that they no longer want to put a committed shift in for Ralf, surely they must realise that they are in the shop window for the new manager?

There was a prevailing view that the players turned against Jose because of his combative management style and it was evident through the erratic, weak as dishwater performance towards the end of Ole's tenure, that the players had grown tired of him as well. We already know that Ralf has ruffled feathers and rubbed some of the players the wrong way, so now we are hoping that the new manager will come in and put things right. Really? This week we announced an extended and improved contract for Bruno, admittedly one of our better performers over the past two years and it is clear that Luke Shaw is angling for a new deal as well. Doubtless, between now and the summer there may be other extended deals announced, giving players continued leverage and influence.

I am hopeful that the new manager will succeed, but everything that I am seeing suggests that he may well be forced to run a race with his shoe laces tied together.

What do others think? Why should the new manager be any more successful in motivating the players than his predecessors?
 
fastwalker said:
Arithmetically, going into this match, we still had top four ambitions. In theory we still do. Unfortunately we come out of a game that we needed to win and could have lost, with a draw. I am struggling to wrap my head around what will motivate these players? We are currently looking to recruit a new manager and in theory, Ralf Rangnick will be on the payroll when the new manager arrives to give him the handover notes. Even if our players have decided that they no longer want to put a committed shift in for Ralf, surely they must realise that they are in the shop window for the new manager?

There was a prevailing view that the players turned against Jose because of his combative management style and it was evident through the erratic, weak as dishwater performance towards the end of Ole's tenure, that the players had grown tired of him as well. We already know that Ralf has ruffled feathers and rubbed some of the players the wrong way, so now we are hoping that the new manager will come in and put things right. Really? This week we announced an extended and improved contract for Bruno, admittedly one of our better performers over the past two years and it is clear that Luke Shaw is angling for a new deal as well. Doubtless, between now and the summer there may be other extended deals announced, giving players continued leverage and influence.

I am hopeful that the new manager will succeed, but everything that I am seeing suggests that he may well be forced to run a race with his shoe laces tied together.

What do others think? Why should the new manager be any more successful in motivating the players than his predecessors?
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Because hopefully a lot of them will be downing tools at another club.
 
Massive clear out required. Don’t expect miracles next season.
 
Why people struggle with this very simple concept. This group of player never downed tools, they are just not an elite group of players.
 
JPRouve said:
Why people struggle with this very simple concept. This group of player never downed tools, they are just not an elite group of players.
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Precisely this.
 
It's pathetic really, I feel a bit sorry for Ralph although hopefully he will have the last laugh. Not that I think Ralph is an amazing coach but he has honesty, intelligence, integrity and I would trust his judgement on who to ship out.
 
I think it’s more that they have downed tools for the United board. We need new owners who can reset the culture.

Unfortunately that isn’t possible right now so we really have to hope that the Glazers will actually change.
 
JPRouve said:
Why people struggle with this very simple concept. This group of player never downed tools, they are just not an elite group of players.
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A South European being the voice of reason over the voice of emotion. You're breaking the sterotypes :D
 
JPRouve said:
Why people struggle with this very simple concept. This group of player never downed tools, they are just not an elite group of players.
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Seconded, I see players trying and failing. That's not downing tools and it didn't happen either with Ole and Mourinho.
 
Idxomer said:
Seconded, I see players trying and failing. That's not downing tools and it didn't happen either with Ole and Mourinho.
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Think a lot of it is about character with regards to not letting your head drop, not good enough a lot of them either.
 
ManchesterManchester said:
I think it’s more that they have downed tools for the United board. We need new owners who can reset the culture.

Unfortunately that isn’t possible right now so we really have to hope that the Glazers will actually change.
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I’d like to know why you think that? For giving them more money than they deserve?
 
Think most of the current group are mediocre players, and the overall standards are low. They probably all feel sorry for themselves and think they're trying their best.

The new manager needs to be demanding and we need to back him. We always end up sacking managers and rewarding mediocrity with long term contracts.
 
Not convinced they ‘downed tools’ for Ralf. He’s still only lost 2 league games. They just haven’t been good enough. Ralf has drawn too many games, but ultimately, it is very difficult at this level to turn these draws into wins with the amount of firepower that we have lost in his time. Greenwood, Cavani, Martial, Ronaldo all missing for various reasons and for long periods. Rashford falling off a cliff too of course. Today is a classic example, Ralf could barely rub two strikers together, and that has happened in too many games this season. And in a lot of those games the rest of the team created a number of chances and wasted them.
 
JPRouve said:
Why people struggle with this very simple concept. This group of player never downed tools, they are just not an elite group of players.
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And yet they're able to perform at an elite level before joining us or when playing for their country?
 
JPRouve said:
Why people struggle with this very simple concept. This group of player never downed tools, they are just not an elite group of players.
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I think part of the reason some are not elite is because they aren't motivated at points like this. Even when things were going relatively well they could be kind of casual in games against mid table and weaker opposition.
I feel like west ham or arsenal or even spurs are somewhat desperate to get top 4 in one way or another. It definitely feels like a lot of our players dont care. Rashford talking about preseason being an example. Season is over for them - I think thats more or less a Pogba quote from French press conferences
 
Amira said:
I’d like to know why you think that? For giving them more money than they deserve?
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Well I suppose I feel that way because ultimately they don’t actually work for the managers, their bosses are the Glazers. I mean Ed Woodward literally said that results don’t matter which I think undermines the manager.

The Glazers are absent owners who don’t even watch the games. As you say there are many other factors too. Paying certain players too much, rewarding players with contract extensions just for their price tag and not for their contribution, keeping failing managers too long. I think it’s all culminated a toxic working environment.

It’s just my opinion, I hope a new manager could come in and prove me wrong and get us playing great. What do you think it comes down to?
 
JPRouve said:
Why people struggle with this very simple concept. This group of player never downed tools, they are just not an elite group of players.
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A bit of both isn't out of the question. Some of the behaviour/body language/ so called 'leaks' to the press, and the "i'm happy... with England" really does make me want to see some of these guys feck right off but you're right on another level. I have nothing against and have never heard much bad said about:

DDG
Fred
Lindelof
Mctominay
Dalot
Telles
Mata
Matic

not really sure many of those would get into other top teams though, especially as starters. Players like Shaw, Martial, Lingard, Pogba on the other hand have given some real bad vibes with their attitude and comments and Maguire and Bruno seem very brittle at times with the criticism they get (admittedly some of it way OTT).
 
JPRouve said:
Why people struggle with this very simple concept. This group of player never downed tools, they are just not an elite group of players.
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This is mostly true but there are some less than committed performers out there too. It is abundantly clear that Pogba is off in the summer and with no trophies to fight for he is clearly not inclined to put in a shift nor is he going to want to put his body on the line and potentially risk an injury that would put that sweet signing on fee at his next club in jeopardy. On the whole we have a lot of players who are PL quality and are generally good to very good but that is still a level below our rivals. Most of our squad would be better suited at a mid table club and there is no getting around that and we are only avoiding mid table due to the individual brilliance of the handful of really class players we have.
 
Idxomer said:
Seconded, I see players trying and failing. That's not downing tools and it didn't happen either with Ole and Mourinho.
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But they've shown glimpses of what they can do and it's a level above what they usually serve. I'd argue that downing tools doesn't have to be an intentional, malicious thing but often a basic mindset of just not having the confidence and focus to believe in what you're doing. A lot of the time our players just seem frustrated and static. Under a single manager I could blame the manager for this but not two or three.
 
We should get rid of as many of them as we can. Only a handful worth keeping hold of. Sign 4 or 5, get rid of 10+ and promote a good few of the kids.
 
Irwin99 said:
A bit of both isn't out of the question. Some of the behaviour/body language/ so called 'leaks' to the press, and the "i'm happy... with England" really does make me want to see some of these guys feck right off but you're right on another level. I have nothing against and have never heard much bad said about:

DDG
Fred
Lindelof
Mctominay
Dalot
Telles
Mata
Matic

not really sure many of those would get into other top teams though, especially as starters. Players like Shaw, Martial, Lingard, Pogba on the other hand have given some real bad vibes with their attitude and comments and Maguire and Bruno seem very brittle at times with the criticism they get (admittedly some of it way OTT).
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Think Bruno tries his best but his form can be very sporadic. I agree that he get hurt easily by criticism. He really needs to let it just wash off him. Also agree with your list above. Thing with a lot of that list is not being good enough, not that effort is lacking.
 
Some are just average. Those who downed tools will leave soon; Pogba, Martial and maybe Rashford too.
Maguire and AWB are just bad footballers. Shaw should down the fork or maybe leave. I m OK with both.
 
JPRouve said:
Why people struggle with this very simple concept. This group of player never downed tools, they are just not an elite group of players.
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Because accepting your thesis means that this club challenging for honors is not simply a manager away whipping in world class disinterested players into shape, it's getting in a manager and then a few transfer windows of smart acquisitions and then hard work on the training ground...
 
This lot don't have the tools. It's a massively overrated group. Nothing will change with Ten Hag or Poch with a team featuring a majority of these players.
 
You can't down tools you don't have. We've over estimated our players for quite a while. They really are an average to poor bunch. We need a rebuild, with the right character of players to make a top team. A mix of young, hungry and proven players. All in the image of whoever is our next manager. Then give him time to return us where we belong. Hopefully with obvious progress as we go along. Rot like ours isn't getting solved in an instant.
 
The players aren't actively 'downing' their tools. However the mental fragility of this team at the moment means that when things go bad the confidence and morale of the team goes through the floor.

Both Mourinho and Ole have to take a large part of the blame for the mental fragility. Mourinho with his throwing players under the bus and constant shitting on his own players, and then Ole going to the other extreme and just blowing smoke up their arses. Neither are conducive to developing a long-term fighting spirit in a team, especially when both also proved incapable of developing a proper playing style and system for players to default to when things get difficult. That's five and a half years of that fragility engraining itself into the dressing room.

As for the players, we do have a few who probably wouldn't be mentally strong enough even if things were done properly. The stupid wages we give out (massively overpaying compared to similar level of players at other clubs) certainly don't help, and perhaps lead to a bit of lack of hunger. But I reckon most of the players would probably be fine if we had a strong dressing room culture, but we're too far gone IMO to fix that easily without some big changes.
 
Someone said:
Think most of the current group are mediocre players, and the overall standards are low. They probably all feel sorry for themselves and think they're trying their best.

The new manager needs to be demanding and we need to back him. We always end up sacking managers and rewarding mediocrity with long term contracts.
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McFred are not good enough even though Fred has improved in a more forward role.

Our fullbacks are not good enough.

I could go on and the conclusion would be that only Bruno, Varane and de Gea are good enough to play for us. No matter who is the manager. Ronaldo, Maguire, Sancho and a few others are decent players but we need to buy 3-5 top class players and get it correct.
 
Agree with those who point out its not downing tools. They're just not good enough.

But also to listen to some, particularly in the media, you'd think it's the same group who let down LvG, Mourniho, Ole and now Rangnick.

But it's almost completely different sets of players.

We just keep buying badly. Year after year.
 
André Dominguez said:
A South European being the voice of reason over the voice of emotion. You're breaking the sterotypes :D
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I'm actually hiding my emotions, in real life I would be shouting at the OP. :lol:

I don't understand why people keep making claims like "they are downing tools!". We are talking about players that have for the most part next to no track record of success, most of them have extremely obvious footballing flaws whether we are talking about athleticism, technique or decision making. They didn't decide to not be elite just to spite a manager, managers who by the way were/are themselves far from elite.

Also let's be clear about something mental fortitude is part of being elite, it's not something that you control, it can be ingrained in you by tutors during your formative years but you don't switch it on and off.
 
JPRouve said:
Why people struggle with this very simple concept. This group of player never downed tools, they are just not an elite group of players.
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Partly this but mostly that football is a team sport and this is a group of individuals. As soon as you try to stamp an identity on them half of them don't fit. And for years under Ole nobody even tried to coach them into being a team. Instead he just nodded and smiled while they bought in random players according to the dictates of a commercial algorithm.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Because hopefully a lot of them will be downing tools at another club.
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Exactly. A lot of the players are as wrong for the team as the managerial appointments have been. Hopefully Ten Hag can start with as close to a clean slate as is possible for a modern manager. Take a chance on some youth players. Bring in some solid talents and build from there.
 
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