Man Utd 1 - 2 Bolton
Barthez ,Phil Neville ,May (Gary Neville ,78 ) ,Brown ,Silvestre ,Solskjaer ,Scholes (Giggs ,66 ) ,Veron ,Butt ,Yorke (Chadwick ,67 ) ,Cole
Veron 25
Nolan 35
Ricketts 84
Started with Ole on the left, Cole and Yorke up front in a 4-4-2, with which it was 1-1, then Ryan Giggs came on for Paul Scholes and Luke Chadwick on for Dwight Yorke with Ole moving up front with Cole, and then Gary on for May. Brown makes his mistake, and the loses 1-2. Prompting Amir to say:
"Fergie's tinckering has finally caught up with him. 8 changes, different formation, and all this after giving Bolton glowing assestment. Sorry, but it seems the manager has simply become complacant."
4-4-2 2 defeats
Barthez ,Phil Neville ,May (Gary Neville ,78 ) ,Brown ,Silvestre ,Solskjaer ,Scholes (Giggs ,66 ) ,Veron ,Butt ,Yorke (Chadwick ,67 ) ,Cole
Veron 25
Nolan 35
Ricketts 84
Started with Ole on the left, Cole and Yorke up front in a 4-4-2, with which it was 1-1, then Ryan Giggs came on for Paul Scholes and Luke Chadwick on for Dwight Yorke with Ole moving up front with Cole, and then Gary on for May. Brown makes his mistake, and the loses 1-2. Prompting Amir to say:
"Fergie's tinckering has finally caught up with him. 8 changes, different formation, and all this after giving Bolton glowing assestment. Sorry, but it seems the manager has simply become complacant."
4-4-2 2 defeats
Liverpool 3 - 1 Man Utd
Barthez ,Gary Neville ,Brown ,Silvestre ,Irwin ( O'Shea ,85 ) ,Beckham ( Scholes ,77 ) ,Butt ,Veron ,Fortune ,van Nistelrooy ,Solskjaer ( Yorke ,52 )
Owen 32
Riise 39
Beckham 50
Owen 51
Started with a 4-4-2, albeit without Keane and Scholes and Giggs, though Brown and Barthez's errors cost us dear.
4-4-2 3 defeats.
Barthez ,Gary Neville ,Brown ,Silvestre ,Irwin ( O'Shea ,85 ) ,Beckham ( Scholes ,77 ) ,Butt ,Veron ,Fortune ,van Nistelrooy ,Solskjaer ( Yorke ,52 )
Owen 32
Riise 39
Beckham 50
Owen 51
Started with a 4-4-2, albeit without Keane and Scholes and Giggs, though Brown and Barthez's errors cost us dear.
4-4-2 3 defeats.
Arsenal 3 - 1 Man Utd
Barthez ,Gary Neville ,Blanc ,Brown ,Silvestre ( Phil Neville ,57 ) ,Beckham ,Veron ( Yorke ,58 ) ,Keane ,Fortune ,Scholes ,van Nistelrooy ( Solskjaer ,77 )
Scholes 14
Ljungberg 48
Henry 80
Henry 85
Started out 4-5-1, and it was 1-1 until Veron was replaced with Yorke, and Ruud for Ole, to make a 4-4-2 (or 4-4-1-1?) then Henry got 2 late goals through Barthez's gifts prompting Murt to say:
"it doesnt matter if we play 4-4-2, you cant blame SAF for individual errors, "
Guess I'll give this as a defeat to 4-4-2 for the sake of our totalling.
4-4-2 4 defeats
Barthez ,Gary Neville ,Blanc ,Brown ,Silvestre ( Phil Neville ,57 ) ,Beckham ,Veron ( Yorke ,58 ) ,Keane ,Fortune ,Scholes ,van Nistelrooy ( Solskjaer ,77 )
Scholes 14
Ljungberg 48
Henry 80
Henry 85
Started out 4-5-1, and it was 1-1 until Veron was replaced with Yorke, and Ruud for Ole, to make a 4-4-2 (or 4-4-1-1?) then Henry got 2 late goals through Barthez's gifts prompting Murt to say:
"it doesnt matter if we play 4-4-2, you cant blame SAF for individual errors, "
Guess I'll give this as a defeat to 4-4-2 for the sake of our totalling.
4-4-2 4 defeats
You must be mad to call Veron a bad player. His past glories, his reputation and his conquests in Italy and Argentina have showed his ample class.
The problem with JSV is not concerning his class. The problem is that he came to nick the place to Manutd’s main column in the midfield, the best midfielder ever to touch the OT pitch since Charlton (and that include even the great Cantona). The name of this legend is called Paul Scholes.
You will kill me on this (and then ppl think that I don’t rate the locals) but if you study the facts well without any bias objectives you will know that I am right.
Yes Cantona and Veron had (or has) more technique, creativity and a more successful pass rate (although he is pretty close to them) but these are the only aspects where Scholes looks weaker. What about battling spirit, tackling, scoring ability, pace, flair and altruism? You know the answer.
Veron is a wonderful player (and so was Cantona) but Scholes and not them were Manutd’s secret to the treble campaign. It was not through silky individual skill but through hardwork, commitment and fighting spirit did Manutd won the treble. Scholes gives you certainties, the same certainties and consistency that we needed against Newcastle and throughout all this season.
Scholes may not have the charisma of Cantona (I loved Cantona mind you) or the hefty price tag of JSV, but inside that little red haired player from Salford hides the fighting spirit, the talent, the altruism and the class of a Manutd who wants to win. After his brilliant performance against Newcastle I am certain. The only way to bring the battling spirit and the goals back to OT is to play players that are able to fulfill that AND NO ONE IS MORE SUITABLE THAN PAUL SCHOLES.
Fighting spirit and success doesn’t always come with big names.
The problem with JSV is not concerning his class. The problem is that he came to nick the place to Manutd’s main column in the midfield, the best midfielder ever to touch the OT pitch since Charlton (and that include even the great Cantona). The name of this legend is called Paul Scholes.
You will kill me on this (and then ppl think that I don’t rate the locals) but if you study the facts well without any bias objectives you will know that I am right.
Yes Cantona and Veron had (or has) more technique, creativity and a more successful pass rate (although he is pretty close to them) but these are the only aspects where Scholes looks weaker. What about battling spirit, tackling, scoring ability, pace, flair and altruism? You know the answer.
Veron is a wonderful player (and so was Cantona) but Scholes and not them were Manutd’s secret to the treble campaign. It was not through silky individual skill but through hardwork, commitment and fighting spirit did Manutd won the treble. Scholes gives you certainties, the same certainties and consistency that we needed against Newcastle and throughout all this season.
Scholes may not have the charisma of Cantona (I loved Cantona mind you) or the hefty price tag of JSV, but inside that little red haired player from Salford hides the fighting spirit, the talent, the altruism and the class of a Manutd who wants to win. After his brilliant performance against Newcastle I am certain. The only way to bring the battling spirit and the goals back to OT is to play players that are able to fulfill that AND NO ONE IS MORE SUITABLE THAN PAUL SCHOLES.
Fighting spirit and success doesn’t always come with big names.
Man Utd 0 - 3 Chelsea
Barthez,
Brown, Blanc, Keane, Phil Neville,
Beckham (Solskjaer, 76), Scholes, Veron, Fortune (Gary Neville, 67), Cole (Chadwick, 89), van Nistelrooy
Melchiot 6
Hasselbaink 64
Gudjohnsen 86
Hard to say what the formation was for this game, as players like Scholes tried several positions, but on the basis of using Cole and Ruud, this is a 4-4-2.
4-4-2 5 defeats.
Barthez,
Brown, Blanc, Keane, Phil Neville,
Beckham (Solskjaer, 76), Scholes, Veron, Fortune (Gary Neville, 67), Cole (Chadwick, 89), van Nistelrooy
Melchiot 6
Hasselbaink 64
Gudjohnsen 86
Hard to say what the formation was for this game, as players like Scholes tried several positions, but on the basis of using Cole and Ruud, this is a 4-4-2.
4-4-2 5 defeats.
Man Utd 0 - 1 West Ham
Barthez, Gary Neville, O'Shea, Silvestre, Phil Neville, Chadwick (Beckham, 59), Butt (Cole, 69), Keane, Scholes, Yorke (Fortune, 81), Solskjaer
Defoe 64
4-4-2 6 defeats. Starting to notice that our midfield selections are always lacking a big name player(s), and playing others out of position.
Though perhaps it should be said that Yorke may have been on the pitch, but he wasn't playing!
Barthez, Gary Neville, O'Shea, Silvestre, Phil Neville, Chadwick (Beckham, 59), Butt (Cole, 69), Keane, Scholes, Yorke (Fortune, 81), Solskjaer
Defoe 64
4-4-2 6 defeats. Starting to notice that our midfield selections are always lacking a big name player(s), and playing others out of position.
Though perhaps it should be said that Yorke may have been on the pitch, but he wasn't playing!
You're going to be here all day doing this Neil.
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>You're going to be here all day doing this Neil.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Forgotten how many bloody games we lost last season!
4-4-2 seems to be losing up to now. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
Man Utd 0 - 1 Liverpool
Barthez ,Phil Neville ,Gary Neville ,Blanc ,Silvestre ,Beckham (Solskjaer ,87 ) ,Keane ,Scholes ,Veron ,van Nistelrooy ,Giggs
Murphy 85
4-5-1 4 losses
4-4-2 6 losses
almost done
Barthez ,Phil Neville ,Gary Neville ,Blanc ,Silvestre ,Beckham (Solskjaer ,87 ) ,Keane ,Scholes ,Veron ,van Nistelrooy ,Giggs
Murphy 85
4-5-1 4 losses
4-4-2 6 losses
almost done
I think when you've finished Neil that you will find that 4-5-1 (4-4-1-1 whatever you want to call it) and 4-4-2 are very similar in terms of results.
Like I've said many times before, 4-5-1 is a play on a 4-4-2. Albeit using different players. I think that I am right in saying that this is Livvie's gripe, the players used in a 4-5-1, not the 4-5-1 itself.
Like I've said many times before, 4-5-1 is a play on a 4-4-2. Albeit using different players. I think that I am right in saying that this is Livvie's gripe, the players used in a 4-5-1, not the 4-5-1 itself.
Middlesbro 2 - 0 Man Utd
Barthez ,Gary Neville ,Blanc ,Phil Neville ,Silvestre ,Wallwork ( Giggs ,61 ) ,Keane ,Butt ,Chadwick ( van Nistelrooy ,61 ) ,Scholes ,Solskjaer ( Yorke ,79 )
4-5-1 5 defeats
Barthez ,Gary Neville ,Blanc ,Phil Neville ,Silvestre ,Wallwork ( Giggs ,61 ) ,Keane ,Butt ,Chadwick ( van Nistelrooy ,61 ) ,Scholes ,Solskjaer ( Yorke ,79 )
4-5-1 5 defeats
My perfect 4-5-1 would be:
--------------------- Keeper ---------------------
-------------- RCBDef ------ LCBDef --------------
--- RBDef ------------------------------ LBDef ---
---------------------- Keane ---------------------
------------ Scholes ----------- Verón -----------
--- Beckham ---------------------------- Giggs ---
----------------------- RVN ----------------------
The idea being that any of the midfield players (except Keane) can become the drop off striker at any time, with any gaps produced being filled by Scholes or Verón (in the case of Beckham or Giggs going in) or Keane in the case of when Scholes or Verón go in or move into Beckham's and Giggs's position respectively.
It's unpredictable, can create space anywhere, yet would remain solid.
--------------------- Keeper ---------------------
-------------- RCBDef ------ LCBDef --------------
--- RBDef ------------------------------ LBDef ---
---------------------- Keane ---------------------
------------ Scholes ----------- Verón -----------
--- Beckham ---------------------------- Giggs ---
----------------------- RVN ----------------------
The idea being that any of the midfield players (except Keane) can become the drop off striker at any time, with any gaps produced being filled by Scholes or Verón (in the case of Beckham or Giggs going in) or Keane in the case of when Scholes or Verón go in or move into Beckham's and Giggs's position respectively.
It's unpredictable, can create space anywhere, yet would remain solid.
Anyway, have Murt and I won our long put argument that it is not the formation that has been giving us poor results, but rather something else, of which neither of us can put our finger on?
problem with veron is that fergie bought him him to play behind RVN, but because he was not successfull, he's been trying to make scholes adapt.
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>
Your poll has a little fault Neil. You seem to be able to vote more than once. <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[No No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
is that you Weastey:
Markus from Aitoo, Finland, said on Monday, 25th November 2002:
"Actually it doesn't matter if it works!"
Me from Here, said on Monday, 25th November 2002:
"Strange vote this anyway, as it's easy to vote more than once.
How many times did you vot Neil? 64 times?"
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
you guys are amazing.......
Yes I am me from here.
Man Utd 0 - 1 Arsenal
Barthez, Phil Neville, Blanc, Brown, Silvestre, Scholes, Keane, Veron (van Nistelrooy, 58), Giggs, Solskjaer, Forlan (Fortune ,68 )
Wiltord 57
Was this a 4-4-2? I think it was probably 4-4-1-1 but I'll give it as 4-4-2.
So 4-4-2 had 7 defeats, while 4-5-1 had 5 defeats - not as clear cut as Murt had it, but it was better than the 4-4-2 in this respect. A lot of last season's games, looking back on it, were down to individual errors, and players in odd positions, particularly when Giggs or Beckham were out. Goalscoring wise, Yorke and Cole had a poor season too especially in these defeats, and were rightly sold, but weren't replaced adequately. Playing Veron in the middle is also a recurrent theme of the matches, playing in 8 of them.
Barthez, Phil Neville, Blanc, Brown, Silvestre, Scholes, Keane, Veron (van Nistelrooy, 58), Giggs, Solskjaer, Forlan (Fortune ,68 )
Wiltord 57
Was this a 4-4-2? I think it was probably 4-4-1-1 but I'll give it as 4-4-2.
So 4-4-2 had 7 defeats, while 4-5-1 had 5 defeats - not as clear cut as Murt had it, but it was better than the 4-4-2 in this respect. A lot of last season's games, looking back on it, were down to individual errors, and players in odd positions, particularly when Giggs or Beckham were out. Goalscoring wise, Yorke and Cole had a poor season too especially in these defeats, and were rightly sold, but weren't replaced adequately. Playing Veron in the middle is also a recurrent theme of the matches, playing in 8 of them.
Originally posted by kf:
<strong>But we really need the solidity of Butt or Keane for it to be at its most effective.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agreed, it's a shame that we've not really had them up to now.
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>
That really wouldn't work though, as you dont know who is taking the piss on here half the time - it would only give highly suspect and subjective data.
The only good way to do it that I can think of would be to take the OPTA stats for each game and produce some kind of overall performance metric from that, and in conjunction with analysis of well respected journalists' columns to get their views and somehow award penalty points for errors that lead to opposition goals, come up with some type of overall judging metric. Not easy.</strong><hr></blockquote>
We could take all the ratings from the fantasyfootball leagues.
how about you guys take my ratings?
iam the only fella around here who's objective and fair.. <img src="graemlins/angel.gif" border="0" alt="[Angel]" />
iam the only fella around here who's objective and fair.. <img src="graemlins/angel.gif" border="0" alt="[Angel]" />
Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
We could take all the ratings from the fantasyfootball leagues.
No!
Livvie, Livvie, you asked for it. And you've got your answer.
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>Livvie, Livvie, you asked for it. And you've got your answer.
My brain hurts....
I also said we should look at the games we won.
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>
My brain hurts....
I also said we should look at the games we won.
There is no pleasing some people.
I feel it will be exactly the same, very close between the two.
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>My brain hurts....
I also said we should look at the games we won.
You mean selective stats are the way to go
No one is advocating the use of 451 week in/ week out btw, just in certain games when it can be handy.
Playing with just 442 makes us far too predictable, no mater what brilliant players we have, just mark or wide men well and were fuched.
Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>
You mean selective stats are the way to go
No one is advocating the use of 451 week in/ week out btw, just in certain games when it can be handy.
Playing with just 442 makes us far too predictable, no mater what brilliant players we have, just mark or wide men well and were fuched.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm all for 451 away in Europe, and maybe away in the PL. But I don't want to see it at home.
I'm ok with it in some European games, but not all. Some of the first group phase teams could have been torn apart with the kind of play we produced on saturday - though it has to be said that there were numerous factors to that performance - the pairing of Scholes with Fortune, return of desire and effort throughout the team, width, most players producing great performances and not just one.
Where it should be used is against a team with excellent full backs, and games which have lots of space. Liverpool and Arsenal usually press for every ball, so Veron is a liability in those games. Both of them have suspect defences, like Newcastle, but both sides are capable of scoring more than one goal so we need to outscore them. It sounds like Phil Neville will be playing right back against Riise which is a defensive worry, so we must take advantage of their creaky defence. But judging from Alex's recent comments he's come up with the right answer to previous problems against them, but not for the current situation.
Last season they had a great defence, sat back, with minimal possession and maximum counter-attacking pace and strength. We couldn't break them down, and our slow and error-prone defence inevitably conceded, but it was our lack of goals that cost us.
This season they've got Dudek in a terrible run of form, possibly to be dropped, and have Henchoz out, Traore crap, Babbel struggling, and Riise far forwards. Its a rare chance to stick some goals past them, especially as they don't sit back so much now, and their style is different without Gerrard i.e. crap. But instead it sounds like we'll try and be more defensive and less offensive and try and counter-attack them. If this means we score less and our injury ravaged midfield and defence have too much pressure on them, then we'll lose. If we attack like we did against Newcastle then we'll have more chance of scoring more than them.
Where it should be used is against a team with excellent full backs, and games which have lots of space. Liverpool and Arsenal usually press for every ball, so Veron is a liability in those games. Both of them have suspect defences, like Newcastle, but both sides are capable of scoring more than one goal so we need to outscore them. It sounds like Phil Neville will be playing right back against Riise which is a defensive worry, so we must take advantage of their creaky defence. But judging from Alex's recent comments he's come up with the right answer to previous problems against them, but not for the current situation.
Last season they had a great defence, sat back, with minimal possession and maximum counter-attacking pace and strength. We couldn't break them down, and our slow and error-prone defence inevitably conceded, but it was our lack of goals that cost us.
This season they've got Dudek in a terrible run of form, possibly to be dropped, and have Henchoz out, Traore crap, Babbel struggling, and Riise far forwards. Its a rare chance to stick some goals past them, especially as they don't sit back so much now, and their style is different without Gerrard i.e. crap. But instead it sounds like we'll try and be more defensive and less offensive and try and counter-attack them. If this means we score less and our injury ravaged midfield and defence have too much pressure on them, then we'll lose. If we attack like we did against Newcastle then we'll have more chance of scoring more than them.
I love Veron, I hate Veron?... yes, we payed too much for him and he isn't Zidane Zidane, but I'm still glad he is a United player. Much has been made of the tackle he pulled out of in the derby game against the bitter liars. Guilty of course, but so were others.
I however think he has been our best player thus far this season. When Scholes or Giggs go missing in games,little is said, but they are both £20 million plus players like Veron.
We all know there has been a media and ABU campaign directed at Veron. Like Rio, you have to forget about the fee and the media frothing at the mouth. They are both quality players.
Des Kelly and The Mirror may have a personal axe to grind with Veron and Fergie, but I can live with Seba missing one tackle in an emotive "local" Prem game and delivering big time in more important games. To be fair to Veron in the first 45 mins of the derby, he was clearly the most talented and creative player on the pitch. All players have to stand up and be counted.
Too many United fans have been sucked into the media view that Veron is a luxury. On the contrary,he has been at the heart of most of United's good play this season. Viva Veron.
I however think he has been our best player thus far this season. When Scholes or Giggs go missing in games,little is said, but they are both £20 million plus players like Veron.
We all know there has been a media and ABU campaign directed at Veron. Like Rio, you have to forget about the fee and the media frothing at the mouth. They are both quality players.
Des Kelly and The Mirror may have a personal axe to grind with Veron and Fergie, but I can live with Seba missing one tackle in an emotive "local" Prem game and delivering big time in more important games. To be fair to Veron in the first 45 mins of the derby, he was clearly the most talented and creative player on the pitch. All players have to stand up and be counted.
Too many United fans have been sucked into the media view that Veron is a luxury. On the contrary,he has been at the heart of most of United's good play this season. Viva Veron.
Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>
You mean selective stats are the way to go
No one is advocating the use of 451 week in/ week out btw, just in certain games when it can be handy.
Playing with just 442 makes us far too predictable, no mater what brilliant players we have, just mark or wide men well and were fuched.</strong><hr></blockquote>
i agree we're very predictable with 4-4-2 against top sides in the league, eg. arsenal, liverpool, and possibly clubs like milan and real. But we do well with clubs of less ability who can't stand our offence when we go at them with 4-4-2. we may lose goals, but we also score many more. (5-3 Newcastle, anyone?)
4-5-1 has made our defence much more composed, if we can get the creativity going up front i think we'll do well with this formation against top sides. i know we don't want veron against liverpool this weekend, but i do believe he'll be the key man in this game. he's the only element in this game that won't be predictable.
maybe that's what makes him world class.