The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll

[Pogue Mahone]

Efficacy of CoronaVac in elderly has a 95% confidence interval of -166% to 91%. This report is worse than those submitted by bachelor students.

https://bit.ly/3uhLQxG

Nothing wrong with the report. Those confidence intervals are just a consequence of low numbers of elderly people in the study. Just 400 out of 12000 recruited. When your end point is grossly under-powered, a very wide CI is inevitable. Same issue as with the AZ vaccine. Early phase data indicates it should work in the elderly but hasn’t yet been confirmed in a Phase 3 study because they didn’t recruit enough elderly subjects.

I presume this will be resolved in the same way the AZ issue will. Ongoing recruitment of older subjects will hopefully eventually generally statistically significant results in that cohort.

 

[2mufc0]

I need some help guys. My mum got the first dose of Pfizer the Wednesday before last (11 days ago). Since the next day until this current moment, she’s been feeling like complete shit with a high fever, extreme fatigue, occasional chills, and now a cough. She has no underlying health conditions and is in her early 60’s. We got her tested for Covid just in case a couple of days ago and it came back negative. Why is this going on for 11 days now? What could it be? If it isn’t Covid and I haven’t heard of anyone having a reaction for this long after the jab. We’ve been to the doc twice, they did some checks on her (oxygen, etc) and said everything was fine, and that she should wait a bit and come back if it persists. She’s going into her 2nd week of this now and I’m worried that it might not be the type of thing where you should just tough it out, and I don’t want things to deteriorate. Any ideas would be much appreciated.

Nothing you can do but keep an eye on her and keep in contact with your doctor. They simply don't know the full details of all side effects of the vaccine, as I've posted already about the side effects my mum had. Everyone reacts differently, you just hope you don't get the worst side effects.

 

[hmchan]

I need some help guys. My mum got the first dose of Pfizer the Wednesday before last (11 days ago). Since the next day until this current moment, she’s been feeling like complete shit with a high fever, extreme fatigue, occasional chills, and now a cough. She has no underlying health conditions and is in her early 60’s. We got her tested for Covid just in case a couple of days ago and it came back negative. Why is this going on for 11 days now? What could it be? If it isn’t Covid and I haven’t heard of anyone having a reaction for this long after the jab. We’ve been to the doc twice, they did some checks on her (oxygen, etc) and said everything was fine, and that she should wait a bit and come back if it persists. She’s going into her 2nd week of this now and I’m worried that it might not be the type of thing where you should just tough it out, and I don’t want things to deteriorate. Any ideas would be much appreciated.

Visit another doc.

 

[hmchan]

Nothing wrong with the report. Those confidence intervals are just a consequence of low numbers of elderly people in the study. Just 400 out of 12000 recruited. When your end point is grossly under-powered, a very wide CI is inevitable. Same issue as with the AZ vaccine. Early phase data indicates it should work in the elderly but hasn’t yet been confirmed in a Phase 3 study because they didn’t recruit enough elderly subjects.

I presume this will be resolved in the same way the AZ issue will. Ongoing recruitment of older subjects will hopefully eventually generally statistically significant results in that cohort.

Not saying it's wrong, just that the quality is shocking. I'm not familiar with AZ, but this report is basically meaningless and gives no indiction even with the adult age group. You can neither recommend for or against this vaccine based on this report.

As far as I know, they have no intention in completing a proper Phase 3 study, let alone recruiting more elderly subjects. Their only concern is to ship as many vaccines to Africa as possible.

 

[Wibble]

I need some help guys. My mum got the first dose of Pfizer the Wednesday before last (11 days ago). Since the next day until this current moment, she’s been feeling like complete shit with a high fever, extreme fatigue, occasional chills, and now a cough. She has no underlying health conditions and is in her early 60’s. We got her tested for Covid just in case a couple of days ago and it came back negative. Why is this going on for 11 days now? What could it be? If it isn’t Covid and I haven’t heard of anyone having a reaction for this long after the jab. We’ve been to the doc twice, they did some checks on her (oxygen, etc) and said everything was fine, and that she should wait a bit and come back if it persists. She’s going into her 2nd week of this now and I’m worried that it might not be the type of thing where you should just tough it out, and I don’t want things to deteriorate. Any ideas would be much appreciated.

Could be another virus like flu maybe? As someone else said - go to another doctor.

 

[Wibble]

Not saying it's wrong, just that the quality is shocking. I'm not familiar with AZ, but this report is basically meaningless and gives no indiction even with the adult age group. You can neither recommend for or against this vaccine based on this report.

As far as I know, they have no intention in completing a proper Phase 3 study, let alone recruiting more elderly subjects. Their only concern is to ship as many vaccines to Africa as possible.

The data for the oldest cohort isn't meaningful. Sample size is far too small.

 

[VP89]

I need some help guys. My mum got the first dose of Pfizer the Wednesday before last (11 days ago). Since the next day until this current moment, she’s been feeling like complete shit with a high fever, extreme fatigue, occasional chills, and now a cough. She has no underlying health conditions and is in her early 60’s. We got her tested for Covid just in case a couple of days ago and it came back negative. Why is this going on for 11 days now? What could it be? If it isn’t Covid and I haven’t heard of anyone having a reaction for this long after the jab. We’ve been to the doc twice, they did some checks on her (oxygen, etc) and said everything was fine, and that she should wait a bit and come back if it persists. She’s going into her 2nd week of this now and I’m worried that it might not be the type of thing where you should just tough it out, and I don’t want things to deteriorate. Any ideas would be much appreciated.

What test did she do, lateral flow or PCR? If it's the rapid flow ones.. Like the 30min result ones then they aren't as accurate as where you send it off for a result.

If she has covid then the good news is she's entering her second week with stable oxygen levels, so it's hopefully pointing to a non severe bout (whether it's covid or flu).

For context my mum and dad got covid 5 days after their vaccine. Dad was mild, mum was a bit worse than how your mum was feeling (from how it reads). My mum had zero energy and strength but stable oxygen. She needed a drip for energy but, She got through fine after closing in on week 3.

Fluids are massive, my mum needed a saline drip but then turned a corner from that alone and went stronger and stronger.

If your mum has very little energy just keep at it with fluids and electrolytes? Also try and have her walk a bit just as practise as uti can be common when you're hit with a bad flu. Her oxygen being stable is good, but for peace of mind buy an oxidiser so you can monitor at home too.

Bigger picture, stable oxygen is very good. Hopefully it's just a bad flu to overcome. If it's covid then hopefully it's just a normal bout of it. It's pointing to it not being serious so hope that continues.

 

[berbatrick]

Efficacy of CoronaVac in elderly has a 95% confidence interval of -166% to 91%. This report is worse than those submitted by bachelor students.

https://bit.ly/3uhLQxG

next lines explain it:

the vaccine efficacy was 50.66% (95% CI: 35.75 – 62.11) in subjects of 18 to 59 years old, and 51.11% (95% CI: -166.93, 91.04) in subjects of 60 years old or above. The vaccine efficacy in elderly was not statistically significant due to limited number of elderly subjects (total 419 elderly subjects). While immunogenicity findings in elderly subjects in Phase 1/ 2 studies were positive, efficacy was demonstrated in elderly in Phase 3 study but the sample size was limited.

Makes sense given that their phase 3 was Brazilian healthcare workers (Pg. 9 of the report)

 

[Wibble]

It's also worth looking at the deaths/cases stats. It's still the case that Europe and the US have the worst numbers - a situation that's partly but not solely down to testing/reporting rates. In this context it's very questionable that (for example) Australia and New Zealand "need" more than a few thousand vaccines at this stage (to cover quarantine hotel/airport staff etc)

The first Phizer jab was done today and #scottyfrommarketing had his shortly afterwards. We have 142,000 doses and 50,000 of those are being split between the states (who are responsible for administering them) with quarantine and front line health staff generally going first. I think much of the balance is being held in reserve in case of supply issues so that they can be sure they have the second dose available if there are issues. Theoretically we are getting a few deliveries of 100k+ doses rising 1 million doses a month from Phizer from April onwards but I suspect those dates may not be that firm. The AZ vaccine is being made here and should be online by the end of March at a rate of 1 million doses per week. The aim is to get every adult vaccinated by October. There is talk of assisting the region to get vaccinated so I can see us starting to do that by mid year if all the supplies we have ordered come through as we won't need them and opening the region up is economically (and ethically) important.

 

[hmchan]

The data for the oldest cohort isn't meaningful. Sample size is far too small.

next lines explain it:



Makes sense given that their phase 3 was Brazilian healthcare workers (Pg. 9 of the report)

That's why I say the quality is poor. If you want to conduct a proper Phase 3 study, you won't select such a small sample size and later find out it is insufficient. The efficacy in adult age group (50.66%, 95% CI 35.75%-62.11%) is also barely acceptable. The study is crudely performed and the data are not even publicly published in a peer-reviewed journal.

 

[berbatrick]

That's why I say the quality is poor. If you want to conduct a proper Phase 3 study, you won't select such a small sample size and later find out it is insufficient. The efficacy in adult age group (50.66%, 95% CI 35.75%-62.11%) is also barely acceptable. The study is crudely performed and the data are not even publicly published in a peer-reviewed journal.

I believe the other manufacturers didn't publish until after they got approval as well. (Pfizer published their phase 3 paper on Dec 31, Moderna this month, both were approved early December). The only ones who published before approval seem to be Oxford.

 

[Wibble]

That's why I say the quality is poor. If you want to conduct a proper Phase 3 study, you won't select such a small sample size and later find out it is insufficient. The efficacy in adult age group (50.66%, 95% CI 35.75%-62.11%) is also barely acceptable. The study is crudely performed and the data are not even publicly published in a peer-reviewed journal.

The rest of the data isn't that good, as you say, but in terms of phase 3 trials it is quite common that very old, very young and pregnant people are hugely underepresented. So not a criticism that is due to the current circumstances but rather a criticism of trials in general.

 

[hmchan]

The rest of the data isn't that good, as you say, but in terms of phase 3 trials it is quite common that very old, very young and pregnant people are hugely underepresented. So not a criticism that is due to the current circumstances but rather a criticism of trials in general.

I wouldn't call people over 60 "very old". They are the vulnerable in the society and the target recipients of the vaccines. If you can't show efficacy in this group, your study is basically meaningless (especially when the efficacy in adult age group is also poor). For Pfizer they have ~15000 subjects over 55 (efficacy 80.6%-98.8%) and ~7700 subjects over 65 (efficacy 66.7%-99.9%); for Moderna they have ~7000 subjects over 65 (efficacy 61.4%-95.2%). You may still consider as an underrepresentation but at least the figures look much better.

 

[Wibble]

I wouldn't call people over 60 "very old". They are the vulnerable in the society and the target recipients of the vaccines. If you can't show efficacy in this group, your study is basically meaningless (especially when the efficacy in adult age group is also poor). For Pfizer they have ~15000 subjects over 55 (efficacy 80.6%-98.8%) and ~7700 subjects over 65 (efficacy 66.7%-99.9%); for Moderna they have ~7000 subjects over 65 (efficacy 61.4%-95.2%). You may still consider as an underrepresentation but at least the figures look much better.

I'm not disagreeing with you and I think that older people need to be included in drug and vaccine trials far more than they currently are especially as our immune systems change as we age.

On the available data I can't see how you could approve use for the over 60's and it will be interesting to see if the rest of the data is good enough for approval.

 

[hmchan]

I'm not disagreeing with you and I think that older people need to be included in drug and vaccine trials far more than they currently are especially as our immune systems change as we age.

On the available data I can't see how you could approve use for the over 60's and it will be interesting to see if the rest of the data is good enough for approval.

Unfortunately our corrupted government is approving this vaccine for political reason, and they insist it is useful in elderly. Together with massive propaganda campaign, many in the society believe CoronaVac is safer and more effective than the Pfizer one.

 

[Gambit]

OK so 3 days after the jab, no side effects. Arm around jab site is fine. I have been warned the reaction to the second jab is worse but as I said I've had far far worse reactions to flu virus's.

 

[ha_rooney]

 

[golden_blunder]

Is there are limited vaccine supplies surely it makes more sense for them to be saved for the people who need them and not be wasted on those that don't need them? You say it makes more sense to vaccinate people who are likely to die and I agree. That's my point. Vast majority of people that get Covid DO NOT DIE. Some people don't even know they've had it.

Without any facts to back this up other than first hand stories and stories I read, the random nature of the virus is what makes it particularly dangerous. You could be fit as a fiddle and end up in ICU.

im sure one of the many docs on here could answer better

 

[lsd]

OK so 3 days after the jab, no side effects. Arm around jab site is fine. I have been warned the reaction to the second jab is worse but as I said I've had far far worse reactions to flu virus's.

Day after for me and feel like crap today like a really bad hangover head banging stomach sick and arm sore but small price to pay i suppose

 

[lynchie]

Some initial signs from Scotland of a very positive impact of all the vaccines on hospital admissions. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56153600

Would be interesting to see how much data this is based on, but the AZ vax seems to be better than "quasi-ineffective" so far.

 

[Eire Red United]

Without any facts to back this up other than first hand stories and stories I read, the random nature of the virus is what makes it particularly dangerous. You could be fit as a fiddle and end up in ICU.

im sure one of the many docs on here could answer better

Very very strange virus alright. Know of a fella in his early 40’s fit as a flea who ended up dying after catching covid, by the same token know of plenty over 70 who wouldnt know the meaning of exercise or a healthy lifestyle who had nothing more than a mild cold.

 

[golden_blunder]

Very very strange virus alright. Know of a fella in his early 40’s fit as a flea who ended up dying after catching covid, by the same token know of plenty over 70 who wouldnt know the meaning of exercise or a healthy lifestyle who had nothing more than a mild cold.

Exactly, that’s the scary nature off it. Precisely why I’m taking no chances

 

[Luminous Lizard]

Had the second dose of the pzifer vaccine on Saturday. Honestly floored me on Sunday but over it now.
Had no reaction at all to the first one bar a sore arm at the injection site.

 

[Sara125]

Took mine on Saturday. Feeling the full brunt of the side effects but luckily I’m not one of those conspiracy theorists that thinks it means I’m growing an extra arm or they’ve put radiation in it

 

[GloryHunter07]

Some promising news coming from Scotland trials today i think?

 

[Suv666]

Took mine on Saturday. Feeling the full brunt of the side effects but luckily I’m not one of those conspiracy theorists that thinks it means I’m growing an extra arm or they’ve put radiation in it

I'd love an extra arm tbh

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Some initial signs from Scotland of a very positive impact of all the vaccines on hospital admissions. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56153600

Would be interesting to see how much data this is based on, but the AZ vax seems to be better than "quasi-ineffective" so far.

Took me a while to find the actual publication but this looks like fantastic news. Fair play to the Scottish health service and their electronic health records. Would be a much more difficult study to do in most other countries.

 

[Sara125]

I'd love an extra arm tbh

Well with the way I’ve been more or less bed ridden and my joints aching since Saturday night I could also use an extra arm

 

[djembatheking]

I'd love an extra arm tbh

Dr Octopus

 

[prateik]

Saw this in my news feed.
karnataka: Two hospitalised over rare disorder days after taking jab

Two anganwadi workers, who experienced uneasiness after taking the first vaccine dose in January, were recently diagnosed with Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS), a rare condition in which a person's immune system attacks the nerves. They are aged 35 and 45 and currently being treated at a hospital.

so I googled to see if there was any more coverage of it.
there was another article.. from Himachal.. (different state.. way to the north of India)
‘Himachal health worker’s death not due to jab’

The death of a 56-year-old anganwadi worker from Hamirpur district at Indira Gandhi Medical College (IGMC), Shimla, on Sunday morning, 23 days after getting the Covid-19 jab, did not seem to be due to vaccine side-effects, according to hospital’s senior medical superintendent Dr Janak Raj Pakhretia.He said that frontline health worker Promila Devi had died due to a rare autoimmune disorder, Guillain-Barre syndrome, in which the immune system attacks healthy nerve cells in patient’s peripheral nervous system. He also said that the woman had never tested positive for coronavirus.

So 2 separate articles of 3 people.. in a couple of days...

No clue what GBS is.. How rare is it?

 

[DOTA]

Arm still hurts. Bill Gates is a cnut.

 

[Suv666]

Well with the way I’ve been more or less bed ridden and my joints aching since Saturday night I could also use an extra arm

That bad huh? My aunt got the Pfizer she's been sick ever since too. Guess that means the vaccine is working.

I remember reading somewhere that if you get sick after the first shot chances are you've had the rona. I think it was about the AZ vaccine, not sure if the same applies to Pfizer as well.

 

[Phil]

No clue what GBS is.. How rare is it?

From experience, seemingly pretty rare. When a family member of mine was in hospital, the doctors thought he had it and half the doctors in the place came down to see him as a live GBS case. Was a complete merry-go-round.

 

[ThierryHenry]

My girlfriend had her vaccine yesterday morning. Was fine yesterday, though woke up feeling rough and has been vomiting this morning. Any advice on the best thing to do/ get her to ease the symptoms?

 

[Sara125]

That bad huh? My aunt got the Pfizer she's been sick ever since too. Guess that means the vaccine is working.

I remember reading somewhere that if you get sick after the first shot chances are you've had the rona. I think it was about the AZ vaccine, not sure if the same applies to Pfizer as well.

That’s the one I took

 

[prateik]

From experience, seemingly pretty rare. When a family member of mine was in hospital, the doctors thought he had it and half the doctors in the place came down to see him as a live GBS case. Was a complete merry-go-round.

So 3 people getting it a week or so after getting the vaccine might be related..

Even if it is, its 3 known cases in about 3m doses (3m by the end of Jan/early Feb)..
Looks like all 3 were Covishield ... which is the Oxford/AZ vaccine.

 

[jojojo]

My girlfriend had her vaccine yesterday morning. Was fine yesterday, though woke up feeling rough and has been vomiting this morning. Any advice on the best thing to do/ get her to ease the symptoms?

Rest and rehydration would be the starting point.

Do you know which one it was? I think Pfizer had more instances of vomiting than the others, but as long as it doesn't get worse and she can avoid getting dehydrated, it should fix itself in a day or so.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Saw this in my news feed.
karnataka: Two hospitalised over rare disorder days after taking jab

so I googled to see if there was any more coverage of it.
there was another article.. from Himachal.. (different state.. way to the north of India)
‘Himachal health worker’s death not due to jab’


So 2 separate articles of 3 people.. in a couple of days...

No clue what GBS is.. How rare is it?

It’s very rare. Worth bearing in mind that the AZ studies were paused because of demyelinating adverse events and this would be one of the biggest safety concerns about these (or any) vaccines.

To put things in perspective, GBS has a baseline incidence of 1 in 100,000 per year. So when you vaccinate millions of people you can expect that at least some of them will have got GBS by now, whether or not the vaccine is causative.

 

[Penna]

It’s very rare. Worth bearing in mind that the AZ studies were paused because of demyelinating adverse events and this would be one of the biggest safety concerns about these (or any) vaccines.

To put things in perspective, GBS has a baseline incidence of 1 in 100,000 per year. So when you vaccinate millions of people you can expect that at least some of them will have got GBS by now, whether or not the vaccine is causative.

I know I've mentioned it before, but I had demyelination after Hep A and Typhim vaccines given at the same time. I never got a firm diagnosis, but my muscle weakness was only on my right side, so that in itself ruled out GBS (which I believe has bilateral symptoms).

 

[ThierryHenry]

Rest and rehydration would be the starting point.

Do you know which one it was? I think Pfizer had more instances of vomiting than the others, but as long as it doesn't get worse and she can avoid getting dehydrated, it should fix itself in a day or so.

Was Oxford/ AZN. She's improving already, with some rest and paracetamol, so exactly as you've said. Thanks.