The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll

[Pogue Mahone]

If I'm honest, my trust in the whole thing was slightly undermined when I read

"The data contained in this analysis were taken from Figure 1 in the pre-print by Chodick and colleagues (2021) by measuring the reported cumulative incidence for each day from Figure 1 using Microsoft Publisher™"

Eesh. It’s such a strange piece of “research”.

 

[Penna]

Italy is accelerating the vaccination programme, as supplies of the AZ vaccine are expected from 8 Feb. It means that there won't now be a wait until all the over 80s have been vaccinated, and people over 55 will start to be offered vaccinations later this month.

The change is due to regulatory caution over whether the AstraZeneca vaccine is safe and effective for older adults. While the vaccine has been approved by EU and Italian regulators for use on all adults, clinical trials to date have mainly involved participants under 55, leading Italian medicines agency AIFA to recommend that it be reserved for 18 to 55-year-olds pending further studies.

When the first million doses arrive this month, they will therefore be offered to teachers, lecturers and other staff in schools and universities, as well as members of the armed forces, police, firefighters, prison staff and prisoners, other key workers and people living in religious or other shared communities who are under 55.

Those over 55 or with health conditions including arterial hypertension, cancer, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, severe obesity and others will receive either the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna shot, around 2.5 million doses of which are due to arrive throughout February.

https://www.thelocal.it/20210204/it...rs-in-february-under-updated-vaccination-plan

I don't know whether this is due to a realisation that the vast majority of those over-80s are not the people who are moving around their regions and spreading the virus. Many people in their late 50s and 60s are still working, of course.

 

[Wibble]

@Solius @NinjaFletch @Kaos

thanks fellas. I’d applied for my dream job with EA games in Ireland and had done 2 interviews before rejection. The salary, benefits, structure, environment, everything about it sounded great. So that’s the gutting one. I’m told that I showed my passion and experience but I wasn’t as strong as another candidate in a certain area (managing transformation specifically digital transformation)
I’ll get over it. It just came at a bad moment

Sorry to hear that GB. Bummer when you get close.

 

[Wibble]

Only 2 continents where vaccination hasn't started yet. Antarctica and Australia. Well done #scottyfrommarketing. At least you have the PR plan ready.

 

[McGrathsipan]

Only 2 continents where vaccination hasn't started yet. Antarctica and Australia. Well done #scottyfrommarketing. At least you have the PR plan ready.

In Ireland its going to take about 65 fecking years to vaccinate people. Its agonizingly slow.
The minister making a fecking big whoop telling us 20,000 will be delivered this weekend. Big Swinging cock. There us 5 million people in the country.
We are all fecked. This isnt going to end well

 

[Pogue Mahone]

In Ireland its going to take about 65 fecking years to vaccinate people. Its agonizingly slow.
The minister making a fecking big whoop telling us 20,000 will be delivered this weekend. Big Swinging cock. There us 5 million people in the country.
We are all fecked. This isnt going to end well

Dude. You need to chill out. From an EU perspective our vaccines per capita are second only to Denmark. We won’t get there as quickly as the UK (for all sorts of complicated reasons) but we’ll get there soon enough.

EDIT: I didn’t check every EU country. Just the main ones. You can click “add country” if I’ve missed any you’re interested in. We’re certainly well above the average.

 

[Balljy]

Dude. You need to chill out. From an EU perspective our vaccines per capita are second only to Denmark. We won’t get there as quickly as the UK (for all sorts of complicated reasons) but we’ll get there soon enough.

EDIT: I didn’t check every EU country. Just the main ones. You can click “add country” if I’ve missed any you’re interested in. We’re certainly well above the average.

It's good that Northern Ireland is keeping up with the rest of the UK and I assume the same will be for Wales and Scotland as I could potentially see Johnson prioritising areas such as London. On another note why is Northern Ireland treated as a separate entity but not Scotland or Wales? Maybe a different distribution method or something with being offshore?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's good that Northern Ireland is keeping up with the rest of the UK and I assume the same will be for Wales and Scotland as I could potentially see Johnson prioritising areas such as London. On another note why is Northern Ireland treated as a separate entity but not Scotland or Wales? Maybe a different distribution method or something with being offshore?

Scotland and Wales are in there. Just click “add country”.

 

[Balljy]

Scotland and Wales are in there. Just click “add country”.

Cheers, I clicked that but didn't scroll down in the list as I think it bugged out for me first time.

This will be really interesting stat wise as it progresses over the next few months around the world.

 

[Wibble]

In Ireland its going to take about 65 fecking years to vaccinate people. Its agonizingly slow.
The minister making a fecking big whoop telling us 20,000 will be delivered this weekend. Big Swinging cock. There us 5 million people in the country.
We are all fecked. This isnt going to end well

It will ramp up everywhere and you are going into spring/summer which will help.

By the end of the year many of us will be back to something like normal.

 

[golden_blunder]

Hurry up and approve Sputnik too

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The WHO praising the UK approach thus far this morning

Nabarro says that the outcome of the UK’s decision against WHO advice to delay the second dose of vaccines in order to roll out a first dose more broadly, shown by data so far to have provided a good level of protection, was “wonderful”. He praises the UK’s “bravery” and adds: “That’s how we’re doing Covid at the moment - we’re all learning together.”

“We’re really really benefiting from the willingness of UK scientists and UK leaders to tell us very precisely what they’re doing differently and why they’re doing differently,” he adds.

“The UK’s approach so far at least has been vindicated,” he says. “Yes, I think this is a great lesson for the rest of the world - thank you, thank you British scientists.”

 

[balaks]

The WHO praising the UK approach thus far this morning

Nabarro says that the outcome of the UK’s decision against WHO advice to delay the second dose of vaccines in order to roll out a first dose more broadly, shown by data so far to have provided a good level of protection, was “wonderful”. He praises the UK’s “bravery” and adds: “That’s how we’re doing Covid at the moment - we’re all learning together.”

“We’re really really benefiting from the willingness of UK scientists and UK leaders to tell us very precisely what they’re doing differently and why they’re doing differently,” he adds.

“The UK’s approach so far at least has been vindicated,” he says. “Yes, I think this is a great lesson for the rest of the world - thank you, thank you British scientists.”

The vaccination programme has been the only thing the UK has got right.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The WHO praising the UK approach thus far this morning

Nabarro says that the outcome of the UK’s decision against WHO advice to delay the second dose of vaccines in order to roll out a first dose more broadly, shown by data so far to have provided a good level of protection, was “wonderful”. He praises the UK’s “bravery” and adds: “That’s how we’re doing Covid at the moment - we’re all learning together.”

“We’re really really benefiting from the willingness of UK scientists and UK leaders to tell us very precisely what they’re doing differently and why they’re doing differently,” he adds.

“The UK’s approach so far at least has been vindicated,” he says. “Yes, I think this is a great lesson for the rest of the world - thank you, thank you British scientists.”

Top stuff.

 

[Pexbo]

The UK government is being patted on the back for turning its population into the world’s guinea pigs.

 

[McGrathsipan]

The UK government is being patted on the back for turning its population into the world’s guinea pigs.

With risk comes reward.
Its phenomenal to think of the amount of jabs given out already.

 

[711]

The UK government is being patted on the back for turning its population into the world’s guinea pigs.

Two pats on the back actually, one for the decision being right and another for being brave enough to be different.

I think what people are missing is that Boris didn't come up with the idea on his own whilst lying in the bath, it was the scientific advisors that persuaded him of their plan, so perhaps the biggest 'pat on the back' should go to them?

 

[africanspur]

The UK government is being patted on the back for turning its population into the world’s guinea pigs.

I think its important to note, even on this board, that this decision will not have come from a pie in the sky idea from Johnson or Gove or Sunak etc.

I'm not denying that there is risk involved, nor that I personally disagree with the decision ( I do). But this isn't a political decision, it is a decision put forward by some of the top scientists in the UK as to what was best for the UK, at this moment in time, from a public health perspective, using the data we already have in place.

It doesn't mean they are right, it doesn't mean it will end up working, it doesn't mean that people will be happy about it. I personally would not have signed up to have the pfizer one if I knew they were gonna postpone the 2nd dose.

But I do think that a lot of the reporting on this particular issue though has been very irresponsible, both from the media and non-British politicians. I'm trying to rack my brains as to the Tories making comments on other countries' vaccination schedules or policies. Other than Williamson's stupid comment about us having the best scientists at the beginning, I'm drawing a blank. Not sure I can say the same the other way round sadly and it isn't helpful to anyone.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Some pretty shit news from the AZ vaccine this weekend then.

 

[11101]

I am glad I am not going to be vaccinated in the UK. There is a reason the manufacturers recommended certain dosages. There is a reason virtually every other country placed restrictions on the AZ vaccine, and some are refusing to approve it outright.

Riding roughshod is not a cause for celebration, even if the end result turns out to be the desired one.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The UK government is being patted on the back for turning its population into the world’s guinea pigs.

eh, they do clearly say “Yes, I think this is a great lesson for the rest of the world - thank you, thank you British scientists.”

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Some pretty shit news from the AZ vaccine this weekend then.

Depends doesn’t it? If it still protects against serious illness and hospitalisation from the SA variant as the scientists are confident it does then that’s by far the most important thing.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Some pretty shit news from the AZ vaccine this weekend then.

About the SA variant or something else? Over here they said even pfizer didn’t quite ”bite” the same on the SA variant.

We’ll be chasing these variants forever I’m sure, at some point we may just accept the inevitability and natural process of it all. I think it’ll be around forever and we’ll keep switching vaccines, some years will be high mortality, some low.

 

[Skills]

I am glad I am not going to be vaccinated in the UK. There is a reason the manufacturers recommended certain dosages. There is a reason virtually every other country placed restrictions on the AZ vaccine, and some are refusing to approve it outright.

Riding roughshod is not a cause for celebration, even if the end result turns out to be the desired one.

There is but you've got to realise the time strain on the vaccine. Literally every manufacturer would've been trying to find the shortest time interval between doses that would still be effective - the reason for that is, that automatically reduces the amount of time for the trials to happen and then also provide full immunity.

Finding the longest time interval between doses wouldn't have been of interest to any of them, up until now.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Depends doesn’t it? If it still protects against serious illness and hospitalisation from the SA variant as the scientists are confident it does then that’s by far the most important thing.

The SA study said it was too small a group to say if it helps against more severe illness, just that it had almost no effect in stopping milder illness, that right?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The SA study said it was too small a group to say if it helps against more severe illness, just that it had almost no effect in stopping milder illness, that right?

From the reports I heard yes.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

From the reports I heard yes.

fingers crossed then.

 

[africanspur]

The SA study said it was too small a group to say if it helps against more severe illness, just that it had almost no effect in stopping milder illness, that right?

I think that is what the press releases are saying, though the full data should be released on Monday.

Also most of the participants were quite young it seems so not sure how much can be ascertained from the trial anyway.

 

[711]

I am glad I am not going to be vaccinated in the UK. There is a reason the manufacturers recommended certain dosages. There is a reason virtually every other country placed restrictions on the AZ vaccine, and some are refusing to approve it outright.

Riding roughshod is not a cause for celebration, even if the end result turns out to be the desired one.

I got mine this morning, I'm 66. Happy to be in the UK thank you.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I think that is what the press releases are saying, though the full data should be released on Monday.

Also most of the participants were quite young it seems so not sure how much can be ascertained from the trial anyway.

So what happens if it’s useless against serious illness? My nan in her 90’s got the AZ one (and it appears anyway that J&J + Pfizer have same issues), is it back to square one for her if this SA becomes dominant? And once that vaccine spike is made and she gets vaccinated for that (after a long period of isolation again), what then if another mutation comes?

Evolution, and that bloke from Jurassic Park tells me that life always finds a way. So I can’t see a scenario where it doesn’t just mutate mutate a mutate so all we’re doing is chasing vaccines and isolating people forever.

or am I just being a negative feck here?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Personally I’d rather be vaccinated with the AZ vaccine and in the UK (because it will likely happen sooner). If you consider the EU found it prudent to argue about liability with the vaccine manufacturers there is a small chance that something could go wrong longer term with the vaccines. My thinking is that because the AZ vaccine is old known technology it’s less likely to encounter any of those kind of issues than the new technology used in the other vaccines on the market currently. As far as I’m aware, it’s likely that the difference between the AZ vaccine and the others is only 20-30% less efficacy against milder illnesses. To me, it seems a worthwhile trade off to go with the established technology at the risk of a higher chance of milder illness.

I stand to be corrected on any of these points.

 

[africanspur]

So what happens if it’s useless against serious illness? My nan in her 90’s got the AZ one (and it appears anyway that J&J + Pfizer have same issues), is it back to square one for her if this SA becomes dominant? And once that vaccine spike is made and she gets vaccinated for that (after a long period of isolation again), what then if another mutation comes?

Evolution, and that bloke from Jurassic Park tells me that life always finds a way. So I can’t see a scenario where it doesn’t just mutate mutate a mutate so all we’re doing is chasing vaccines and isolating people forever.

or am I just being a negative feck here?

I doubt it will be totally useless against serious illness thankfully but I do think we'll need a bit of caution going forward in general. Hopefully the vaccines will still work at least to some extent against all variants we know about for now and long term it will become like the flu vaccine; a yearly shot we dish out having worked on incorporating protection against the current known variants.

 

[F-Red]

Two pats on the back actually, one for the decision being right and another for being brave enough to be different.

I think what people are missing is that Boris didn't come up with the idea on his own whilst lying in the bath, it was the scientific advisors that persuaded him of their plan, so perhaps the biggest 'pat on the back' should go to them?

Yep, the JCVI started talking about the idea back in June/July last year.

 

[jojojo]

There is but you've got to realise the time strain on the vaccine. Literally every manufacturer would've been trying to find the shortest time interval between doses that would still be effective - the reason for that is, that automatically reduces the amount of time for the trials to happen and then also provide full immunity.

Finding the longest time interval between doses wouldn't have been of interest to any of them, up until now.

I think that's an important point. Once you've decided that you need a two dose, or prime/boost plan then the pressure on the research team is to make the delay as short as possible. In the context of running trials it shortens the timeline, and in a public health setting it's what you normally want. Beyond that, the theoretical and historical models suggest that allowing the first dose more time generally leads to a stronger, more durable response.

The gamble they took is applying that theory to the new mRNA types where we have no history and minimal data to compare to. I'm hoping that the MHRA and the companies are now seeing that data - hopefully by testing blood antibody levels over time rather than just relying on hospitalisations etc to give us the bad news later. One advantage we do have is that a significant proportion of the Pfizer jab1 group are in situations (hospitals/carehomes) where they are doing regular covid tests as well.

Incidentally the people leading the UK Novavax trial are of the opinion that they could delay their second dose without it creating any problems. They don't have enough case numbers to know what the efficacy after a single dose will be, they do have some antibody numbers - though as Pfizer warned, we don't yet have a standard correlation for antibody level to efficacy.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I think that's an important point. Once you've decided that you need a two dose, or prime/boost plan then the pressure on the research team is to make the delay as short as possible. In the context of running trials it shortens the timeline, and in a public health setting it's what you normally want. Beyond that, all the theoretical and historical models suggest that allowing the first dose more time leads to a stronger, more durable response.

Thanks, this is what I read on a Twitter thread by some boffin in the field supporting the JCVI decision when it was made but I couldn’t find it again. That the Oxford vaccine is behaving as predicted by the JCVI is more of a ‘quelle surprise’ moment than a ‘phew’ one but with the other vaccines there is more of a gamble

 

[Mickeza]

https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2...vfz=medium=sharebar&__twitter_impression=true

Informative article highlighting the difference between our approach and the EU - reiterating it wasn’t Brexit related. Very interesting about how we’re now setting up Mrna production within the U.K. to deal with future variants.

 

[11101]

There is but you've got to realise the time strain on the vaccine. Literally every manufacturer would've been trying to find the shortest time interval between doses that would still be effective - the reason for that is, that automatically reduces the amount of time for the trials to happen and then also provide full immunity.

Finding the longest time interval between doses wouldn't have been of interest to any of them, up until now.

Oh I am sure it is likely still effective. My objection is that we dont know that it is, and I'm not thrilled that the entire population including my own family has been turned into a giant medical trial.

If the AZ vaccine does turn out to have problems with delayed dosage or doesnt work well on the elderly the UK is truly fecked. I would have preferred them to wait and find that out before they stuck it in the arms of 10 million people.

 

[africanspur]

https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2021/02/07/news/kate_bingham_interview_vaccines_covid_astrazeneca_uk_coronavirus_johnson-286384093/amp/?__vfz=medium=sharebar&__twitter_impression=true

Informative article highlighting the difference between our approach and the EU - reiterating it wasn’t Brexit related. Very interesting about how we’re now setting up Mrna production within the U.K. to deal with future variants.

Interesting read.

I think what people on both sides probably fail to appreciate a little bit is that there are perhaps both legal and political (not sure if that's the best word) aspects to this.

Did Brexit legally allow us to move more quickly? No and anyone that thinks so needs to do a little more reading. We were still in the EU when we made that decision and all of the other countries could have chosen to do exactly the same thing. There is nothing in EU law which would have stopped us from doing what we did and there is still nothing in EU law which stops Germany from doing it even now if it wanted (and I believe it is indeed now organising some of its own unilateral purchases, as have Hungary).

At the same time, these things don't exist in a vacuum. The political image of Brexit on both sides I think probably did play a part. On one side a heavily Eurosceptic government and cabinet who's entire raison d'etre was to 'get Brexit done' and who revel in taking decisions which move us away from the EU, even if relatively minor (ie Erasmus). On the other, a commission which is losing one of its bigger members and cabinets across Europe which rightly have closed ranks to protect the EU and single market etc are more likely to make decisions which preserve unity, in the face of a buffoon who tried to fracture that.

If there hadn't been Brexit and all it entailed, who knows what would have happened.

Regardless, the fundamental intention is the right one, even if the execution has been poor. There is no point vaccinating all of Germany and France within a single free movement market if its still raging in Poland or Spain. Similarly, unless we decide to pursue a zero covid vaccine strategy eventually (unlikely with the idiots in our parliament) and close our borders totally, we're not fully out of the woods despite vaccinating the entire population in the UK if Covid is still raging on mainland Europe.

The nationalists will get it eventually.

 

[F-Red]

Oh I am sure it is likely still effective. My objection is that we dont know that it is, and I'm not thrilled that the entire population including my own family has been turned into a giant medical trial.

If the AZ vaccine does turn out to have problems with delayed dosage or doesnt work well on the elderly the UK is truly fecked. I would have preferred them to wait and find that out before they stuck it in the arms of 10 million people.

The AZ vaccine was tested with 12 weeks gaps and had shown to have good efficacy, and reduced hospitalisation. They had a good foundation of data to make the call on recommending dosage 12 weeks apart.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32661-1/fulltext

 

[africanspur]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55932997

Covax: Canada defends taking vaccines from sharing scheme