The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll
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German vaccine regulator advises against use of AstraZeneca vaccine in under 60s
Germany’s standing vaccination commission (Stiko) has recommended that no-one aged under 60 should be given Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccines, according to a report in Augsburger Allgemeine.
According to draft recommendations seen by the regional paper, the British-developed vaccine may still be given to younger patients on the discretion of a doctor.
Augsburger Allgemeine quoted the Stiko report as saying:
Germany’s standing vaccination commission (Stiko) has recommended that no-one aged under 60 should be given Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccines, according to a report in Augsburger Allgemeine.
According to draft recommendations seen by the regional paper, the British-developed vaccine may still be given to younger patients on the discretion of a doctor.
Augsburger Allgemeine quoted the Stiko report as saying:
Earlier it emerged that health services in Berlin and Brandenburg have paused the distribution of AstraZeneca vaccines to under-60s. (See post at 13.44)
Will you take CovidShield if offered in India? I am in the process of arranging something for same.
Would’ve said yes two days ago but a little conflicted now. I have the option to - was offered yesterday.
I think I’ll wait a week and then take it. My guess is that the 1 in 100k figure is incorrect by 5x at least. I’d like some clarity which we will hopefully get in the next couple weeks.
It's been debated to death I'm sure but I can't ascertain why Astra is being held back by these countries - is it actually dangerous or is it something else here? Before it was risky for over 65, now it's suddenly drawn away from those below 60?
It was never risky for over 65 but there was a lack of any proper phase 3 efficacy data in that age group: That issue is resolved now we’ve seen results from the FDA mandated trial last week.
The concerns in young people relates to safety, rather than efficacy. These unusual clotting episodes seem to be happening exclusively in < 50 year olds (also vast majority are female)
Thanks, makes sense. But is it a statistically significant figure? I heard a line in the news but could be wrong that it was a handful in a few thousand?
@Paul the Wolf
Do you think the fact that the vaccine rollout in the European Union is utter shit is because of the EU?
Or do you think it is utter shit because member states are shit?
Or do you think that member state are utter shit because they wait for the opinion of other shit member States? Curious to know because the vaccine rollout is utter shit in EU member States.
Now my limited experience of 20+ years in NL has taught me that when something goes wrong in your business, find someone to blame and then fix the issue.
I could mention that our new vaccine center in Haarlem only had 30 vaccines and had to turn everybody away but I won't mention it
Do you think the fact that the vaccine rollout in the European Union is utter shit is because of the EU?
Or do you think it is utter shit because member states are shit?
Or do you think that member state are utter shit because they wait for the opinion of other shit member States? Curious to know because the vaccine rollout is utter shit in EU member States.
Now my limited experience of 20+ years in NL has taught me that when something goes wrong in your business, find someone to blame and then fix the issue.
I could mention that our new vaccine center in Haarlem only had 30 vaccines and had to turn everybody away but I won't mention it
It's based on stats like these and some specific results they find in the lab work of these cases:
In other words we're looking at an overall stat of 1:100,000 vaccinated people with this unusual condition, with 2/3 of those showing an odd combination of symptoms, and about a third of those affected died. That's where the statisticians and the clinicians have to step in to tell us what we're looking at. When they did they realised it looks like it mostly effects the under 60s, and mostly it affects women.
In any month, some people (usually women of childbearing age) will die with similar looking symptoms and some haematologists have suggested that because the analysis is going deeper on these cases now that maybe the specific pattern seen was underdiagnosed previously.
But that's where the science has to take over - because they need to dig deeper. They need to look for similar patterns in other countries (including the UK where most of the AZ has been used on older adults, but there must still be lots of under 60 women who took AZ). They also need to look at other possibilities like the "previously underdiagnosed" idea and some other theories that have been proposed, including contaminants in the vaccine and differences in lab tests and hospital admission procedures (like first choice drug for thrombosis etc).
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It’s shit here because of the supply issues. Sure it’s the same in many EU countries, I mean, it’s not like the German’s are known for their inefficiency is it?
Vaccine companies promised an incredible amount more than has been delivered, as in, staggering numbers, and if you don’t get the supply, you don’t get high.
https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/03/30/blood-clots-and-the-az-vaccine-revisited
The german data shows a gross incidence of about 1 in 87,000 but only 19 of 31 cases involved thrombocytopenia which is apparently likely if vaccine related. That is 1 in 140,000.
Oddly it has almost exclusively been seen in younger females. It should be noted that there have only been 9 deaths which is a rate of 1 in 300,000 and if there is indeed an affect that could be reduced significantly with doctors now looking for clots and being ready to treat the symptoms. All these figures should be compared to the background rate of clotting events for vaccinated people and not to zero - not sure what that is but around 1 in 700,000 maybe - extrapolating from different snippets of info in the press.
Oddly the UK data differs significantly with on 5 with 11 million does given which is 1 in 2.2 million - below that background rate, with only 1 in 11 million deaths.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56580728
If indeed there is a significant causative (rather than correlative) effect then perhaps it isn't the vaccine that is the cause but rather the antigen as the same thing has been found for the other vaccines
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajh.26132
If this is the case then getting covid would cause the same issues (or even worse given the general inflation issues with covid) and wouldn't be a reason not to vaccinate.
Australia is going to be close to 100% AZ for the forseeable future so watch this data space. Assuming we can get our vaccination rate above the current snail pace.
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Interesting. Sounds plausible and certainly worthy of investigation.
Our Federal government are useless. Announced they aimed to vaccinate 4 million people by the end of march. Only missed their target by 3.4 million shots.
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...hort-of-4m-vaccination-target-by-end-of-march
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...hort-of-4m-vaccination-target-by-end-of-march
Please don’t tell me ireland will pause again.
Believe me I'm no expert but I have a funny feeling that these cases could be linked to the contraceptive pill.
Had 1st AZ at 2pm yesterday. By 8pm was really tired so popped two 500/8 co-codamols, pint of water and went to bed. Woke up at 2am (12 hours since jab) and felt like I'd been hit by a bus. I'm a 32m with no underlying physical health conditions and never in my life have I had my whole body ache at the same time, it's a really strange feeling. I had my first flu jab in December and had nothing besides a sore arm. Sure we all get aches from day to day but usually in a reoccurring place or because of a certain exercise the day before but this is next level. My arms quite sore but that was to be expected but I've spent the last 6 hours feeling rather sick, fluctuating between sweats one minute and and shivers the next. Hoping I can get my head down again and wake up feeling fresh. Anybody in their 30's had the same side effects? When did they disappear?
Friends of mine, similar age as you had it and it was kind of similar. They felt a bit better than you given what you describe but also called in sick the next day and mostly stayed in bed. Overall it lasted about 36 hours and both of them were back to doing sport on their second day so by tomorrow morning you should feel better I guess.
One for the you cannot make this up file:
GSK will do the finish/fill processing for Novavax and they'll use their Barnard Castle factory
First doses they think could be in May. Incidentally, Novavax have admitted that they're having difficulty getting finish/fill basics like vials, caps and filters, so this is one of those times when a government sponsored marriage probably suits everyone.
They'll end up on ticketmaster for 3x face value.
Same at the place I went to in Cheetham Hill. Very efficient. In and out in 5 mins as I had a lift. Must have been 10 rooms going and all a one way system, impressed. Got a little raffle ticket with my number. Wasn't sure if I was waiting for some deli meats or a Covid vaccine. Didn't get a sticker though which annoyed me.
Im 33 mate and my GF 25, both also felt horrendous but 24 hours and it was done followed by a day of feeling a bit groggy. Don’t worry won’t last too long, the worst of it was only around 12 hours for us
Appreciate the reply. Thanks!
Appreciate it mate. Glad you're both feeling better.
I was deliberately staying out of this discussion and have already made my point earlier. But as you've drawn me back in.
Most EU states decided to buy the vaccine together. UK decided to go it alone while still under EU laws and could have done so even if this had happened long before Brexit.
Each country is doing its own rollout programme so NL is doing a different rollout to France and I would guess every other member state has a different rollout strategy.
The political nonsense is really annoying.
Boris took a chance and was selfish and greedy, his own words I believe, no doubt to try to mitigate the terrible handling of the pandemic with so many deaths compared to countries like France of a similar population.
Of course if it was reversed and France had all the excess deaths but kept all the vaccines for themselves I presume the EU would still be in the wrong.
Excellent summary on safety concerns re AZ.
tl;dr. It’s a real and important issue but benefits outweigh risks and the response from regulators has been proportionate and appropriate.
I wonder if a lot of people might start declining the AZ vaccine and hold out for one of the premium ones?
If people do, then I hope it's on the basis of understanding the information rather than a, "Pfizer = the good stuff, premium product and AstraZeneca = cheap and nasty," response. My fear is that we'll end up scaring people away from AZ and maybe even vaccines in general. The risk (in all age groups) of serious illness/death if you catch covid is still higher than the vaccine risk.
From my perspective, it's great news that we have this review going on. It shows the monitoring systems and the regulators in action. Haematology specialists and researchers around the world are now chasing the data and the facts.
If you're female, under 55 and you're living in a country with a low covid case rate (like Australia or New Zealand) then caution - as in, "I'll wait a couple of months until the scientific review is complete," is a reasonable response.
If you're not, then the stats still say you're better off taking the vaccine as soon as it's offered.
Some regulators, particularly those with large unvaccinated groups of older people, have stopped prescribing to under 60s. Because of the current focus on over 50s and second doses and the high case numbers, the UK has decided to look at hospital records and revising the monitoring guidance instead - for now, at least.
The crucial thing is that we have an initial guide to the symptoms, sustained headache and/or multiple seemingly random bruising occurring in the first three weeks after vaccination. We also have a diagnosis and treatment strategy that hospital doctors can follow, and that GPs should know about.
Veiled attempt at telling us that you have a younger bird innit?
Pfizer have tested their vaccine in 12-15 year olds and got 100% effectiveness (I can't do confidence intervals, but I imagine it's not actually 100%, but overlaps well with the effectiveness in adults). Hoping to give it to school kids before next September.
I hope they make a bit more of an effort to distribute it to at risk groups in the rest of the world first, but meh.
https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-r...ech-announce-positive-topline-results-pivotal
I hope they make a bit more of an effort to distribute it to at risk groups in the rest of the world first, but meh.
https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-r...ech-announce-positive-topline-results-pivotal
The fact that they've already proposed a treatment strategy for it seems very promising. I guess we'll only find out once they catch a few cases and the treatment works, which might take a while? It's also very much another "Yeah! Science!" moment for the pandemic.
Jaysus. They’re even doing a study in 6 months old upwards. The risk-benefit for young kids is such that you’d surely want an absolute shit load of long term safety data before dosing them. I’’ve never thought twice about giving my kids the usual vaccines but giving them one for a disease which will almost certainly do them no harm is a much bigger ask.
Surely it’s time for the UK to switch to one of the safer and more effective vaccines now, particularly as they’re going into the younger age groups which other countries are banning it for?
Thanks for explaining this
Yeah I wouldn't be keen on it. I guess Pfizer see it as a pretty big potential market though, especially with the current narrative that kids are the monsters of the pandemic.
I'd imagine that as the Moderna supplies start coming in they'll be used for the under 50s and the AZ vaccines will be used primarily for second doses for those already done.
Also talk of the Novavax vaccine being rolled out in May which will also be used for the under 50s
Assuming the Novavax gets regulatory approval - then it may start arriving in the UK supply in June.
They're being very cagey on dates at the moment - understandably so, but it looks like for the UK, production is underway now, sometime in April for approval, and first batches going through fill/finish in May. That would mean significant volume of usable (fully QC tested) batches sometime in June - if it all goes to plan. Probably getting up to their planned capacity in July or beyond. Realistically they won't be major contributors (anywhere in the world) until Q3/4.
Then again, they may be trying to do that, under-promise and over-deliver thing. Nobody wants to be another AstraZeneca.
J&J (who've so far only delivered around 5 million doses in the US - all imported as bulk product from their Netherlands plant) lost 15 million doses earlier this month in a mistake at their US manufacturing sub-contractor. The FDA have put shipments from the plant on hold pending investigation according to:
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/545856-shipments-of-johnson-johnson-vaccine-halted
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/545856-shipments-of-johnson-johnson-vaccine-halted
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