Some people here need to read this post instead of falling for the EU propaganda about the evil UK hoovering up vaccines.
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- Thread starter Badunk
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Some people here need to read this post instead of falling for the EU propaganda about the evil UK hoovering up vaccines.
I think the distribution calculation is more complex that that. I also wonder how the regulatory checks are being done - is that organised through EMA or by individual countries.
On the distribution side, according to the Spanish press, countries were invited to choose from a list of vaccines with a price/dose next to the manufacturer and the quantity they'd like to buy. Some countries (they mention Malta as an example) over-bought, and asked for lots of Pfizer as it was going to be early, others went for the cheaper options and bought "just enough".
I don't know how accurate that report is, but it was used to explain why there's been some internal renegotiation underway about fair shares between EU countries. People who were planning to buy just enough AZ (the cheapest option) and then add J&J were getting their percentage of the diminished AZ supply, but there has allegedly been rescheduling in the interests of unity and solidarity, and the current regulatory pauses on AZ in some countries has complicated the formula further. AZ have failed in multiple ways, but they may be caught in the middle of another argument as well.
That second paragraph fits with what I read in one of the best articles I’ve read on this debacle, by one of the better connected Irish journalists (despite his inclusion of the obligatory quote from the Tory’s favourite right wing think tank, Airfinity)
For all the deserved stick the EU is getting that same article makes an important point. Single states would always find it easier to be aggressive/take risks like the UK did. But putting your own citizens first, with no thought for the rest goes against the whole ethos of the EU. And it’s an ethos I’m personally very much in favour of. Especially in this specific context.
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Absolutely right and from the perspective of the smaller countries in particular it's been vital. The error (or not, depending on your perspective) was offering countries a kind of a la carte menu. Some countries made choices based on calculations based on lowest cost and an assumption that they wouldn't want to vaccinate everyone or wouldn't get that kind of take up. It just makes for a more subtle (and presumably more prone to political mood swings) sharing process.
Malta over-bought, basing their decisions on early access and then on ongoing supply coming later:
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-02-malta-eu-vaccinations-wary-virus.html
Austria is one of the countries complaining about the sharing mechanism.
https://www.euronews.com/2021/03/16/austria-calls-on-eu-to-correct-covid-19-vaccine-distribution
The people you’re referring to are generally making the best posts in this thread.
again we are allowed to call out the U.K., just as you are allowed to defend them
Fair enough.
I agree the communication between the company and its customers has been poor but I'd be interested to see what the actual disconnect is between deliveries and estimated deliveries between the company and the UK (where there has been no complaining about schedules) and in the EU.
As I said, AZ promised 30 million doses to the UK by September 2020 (which as I said is more than the total number of doses we've managed to give of both vaccines even now), 6 months ago, which was clearly a bit pie in the sky and this in a country where we've clearly invested far more in the trial, the production capability and where I believe the testing of batches is happening almost while the vaccine is being made, which I'm not sure is happening in mainland Europe.
I thought the response from a lot of British docs and the general public about the pauses was silly (the EMA and individual country health authorities made whatever decision was right for them and in my opinion without political thought).
However, the general rhetoric from the some in the EC and some individual European politicians regarding the vaccine and the company has been incredibly dangerous and very clearly tinged with a political hue, which I believe to be incredibly irresponsible considering the topic we're dealing with.
The post wasn't about the UK though. It is about the often clearly political discourse which has developed around the distribution of vaccines.
Yeah strongly disagree with that. For me, the best posts in the thread are from clearly informed people that consider both sides of an argument. Then there's everything else.
And that post by @africanspur was one of those better posts..
The people getting sucked in to the propaganda aren't offering anything constructive.
There’s a hell of a lot of stuff worthy of discussion about these vaccines other than how the UK is being unfairly treated by the EU. Yet somehow that has literally been the one and only topic you’ve posted about in this thread. Along with accusing other people of “propaganda”.
If Carlsberg did irony...
I do agree with that last paragraph. Although it’s an inevitable consequence of the years of bitterness built up throughout the Brexit negotiations. So when AZ cosy up to Britain the way they have - whilst spectacularly falling short of their commitments to the EU - then that will inevitably bring out the worst in EU politicians.
Obviously, it would be best for everyone if they took the moral high ground but c’est la vie.
Wrong on both counts. It's not the one and only thing I've posted about and secondly I've not posted any misleading information.
Admittedly I've probably been sucked in a little but it's quite concerning people seem quite happy to listen to nonsense spouting about the UK and go along with it but are straight in the moment anyone dares to pull them up on it. Double standards.
Last Easter all the people in my department worked for free making much needed equipment for a local hospital (I'm not going into detail as it's depressing as feck)
Less then 12 months later I have had my first shot of the vaccine in the same hospital, not sure why I got now as I'm only 41 with no underlying condition.
I don't really have a point, just a bit surreal thinking how far we have come.
Less then 12 months later I have had my first shot of the vaccine in the same hospital, not sure why I got now as I'm only 41 with no underlying condition.
I don't really have a point, just a bit surreal thinking how far we have come.
Interview on RTL that finished 10 minutes ago.
He said that:
- The UK had 30 millions: 10 produced in the UK and 20 in the EU
- The UK didn't fullfil hits commitment to export to the EU a part of the 10m
- The EU signed a deal with AZ before the UK so he said that the issue is not the lack of responsiveness of the EU
- AZ did fullfil hits commitment towards the UK, but not the EU
- In the 2nd semester, the EU will ban the export of 70 millions of AZ doses produced in the EU but authorize the exports to non-EU countries for the doses surpluses
He also promoted the Vaccine passport....
Conclusion:
- Childish and nasty communication from the EU.
- Bad relationships between the EU and UK
Did he mention Sanofi the French company promising 500 miliion doses and producing non for any one. (Mark urban on BBC newsnight last week). No of course he didn't. When does a promise to make your best efforts become a promise to fill and order?
Why would he? It failed in Phase 3 and never got a license. So is completely irrelevant to what he’s discussing.
For balance on how difficult it is to produce a new vaccine. How lucky we are to have a working vaccine in the timeframe we have and to put the criticism of AZ into perspective.
Its failing to produce as much as it thought it would be able to do so and warned at the start its development and production schedule wasn't certain.
Compare and contrast its failings with Sanofi's. I think that would be a fair overall comparison to make if you start talking about expected millions of doses delivered by a company
The issue is not just the amount that it made but the fact it kept the U.K. fulfilled at the cost to everything else it seems
No. It’s a stupid comparison. If a drug fails it fails. That’s not anyone’s fault. The only point at which these promises of supply become relevant is when a vaccine gets a license. And the only fair comparison is with other companies whose vaccine also got a license.
At the present moment, the Sanofi vaccine does not exist to the best of my knowledge.
I am not aware of the terms of the different contracts signed between public bodies and private pharmaceutical firms.
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EU have been total morons to be fair. They should have done the same thing that UK and US did, a total ban of exporting the vaccines to other countries (especially the UK and the US), until they vaccinate their own people.
They also should heavily fine AZ.
They also should heavily fine AZ.
Arent the EU the good guys in your scenario though? Why is vaccine hoarding being celebrated?
Not the good guys, but it is idiotic to allow exporting vaccines to UK if the UKs is not allowing the same. I strongly believe in reciprocity.
AZ could have sent every dose produced in the UK facilities, that the UK government gave them funding to set up very early on, and it would have changed basically nothing about the EU rollout.
EU Won’t Let Astra Export Covid Vaccines Until Pledge Met (Bloomberg)
The European Union will block exports of AstraZeneca Plc coronavirus vaccines if the company fails to deliver the doses bought by the region on time, according to the EU commissioner in charge of fixing the bloc’s vaccination drive.
“As long as AstraZeneca doesn’t make good on its obligations, everything that’s produced on European soil is distributed to Europeans,” Thierry Breton, the EU’s internal markets commissioner, said on RTL radio and LCI television Sunday. “If there are surpluses, they will go elsewhere.”
The EU, which has faced vaccine shortages while exporting doses, has been criticized for its much slower rollout than in the U.S. and the U.K., which have mostly refrained from exports.
The lag has forced governments across the continent to extend or tighten costly travel restrictions, lockdowns and sometimes closures of venues such as restaurants, museums and schools as they grapple with a third wave of infections in the pandemic that’s killed hundreds of thousands of people on the continent in the past year.
AstraZeneca has pledged to deliver 70 million doses to the EU in the second quarter, Breton said. So far, it met about 30% of its commitment to the EU versus 100% to the U.K., he said.
The EU has exported about 40% of the 180 million doses produced on its soil, including about 20 million doses to the U.K., according to Breton. If it can, the bloc will help Britain, which may struggle to get enough doses for those who need two jabs quick enough, he said.
The EU, which is ramping up capacities, will produce 420 million doses by mid-July, enough to reach herd immunity for its population, Breton said. He defined herd immunity as vaccinating about 70% of adults.
As inoculation progresses, EU member states will create a “health pass” from the middle of June to facilitate a rebound in leisure, tourism and business travel, the commissioner said.
People will be able to display their vaccination status and most recent Covid-test results with a certificate using a QR code, Breton said. It will be available on a voluntary basis and respect European data-protection rules, he said
The European Union will block exports of AstraZeneca Plc coronavirus vaccines if the company fails to deliver the doses bought by the region on time, according to the EU commissioner in charge of fixing the bloc’s vaccination drive.
“As long as AstraZeneca doesn’t make good on its obligations, everything that’s produced on European soil is distributed to Europeans,” Thierry Breton, the EU’s internal markets commissioner, said on RTL radio and LCI television Sunday. “If there are surpluses, they will go elsewhere.”
The EU, which has faced vaccine shortages while exporting doses, has been criticized for its much slower rollout than in the U.S. and the U.K., which have mostly refrained from exports.
The lag has forced governments across the continent to extend or tighten costly travel restrictions, lockdowns and sometimes closures of venues such as restaurants, museums and schools as they grapple with a third wave of infections in the pandemic that’s killed hundreds of thousands of people on the continent in the past year.
AstraZeneca has pledged to deliver 70 million doses to the EU in the second quarter, Breton said. So far, it met about 30% of its commitment to the EU versus 100% to the U.K., he said.
The EU has exported about 40% of the 180 million doses produced on its soil, including about 20 million doses to the U.K., according to Breton. If it can, the bloc will help Britain, which may struggle to get enough doses for those who need two jabs quick enough, he said.
The EU, which is ramping up capacities, will produce 420 million doses by mid-July, enough to reach herd immunity for its population, Breton said. He defined herd immunity as vaccinating about 70% of adults.
As inoculation progresses, EU member states will create a “health pass” from the middle of June to facilitate a rebound in leisure, tourism and business travel, the commissioner said.
People will be able to display their vaccination status and most recent Covid-test results with a certificate using a QR code, Breton said. It will be available on a voluntary basis and respect European data-protection rules, he said
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I very much agree with EU finally taking a stance, enough is enough and US/UK were/are taking the piss really having not exported a single dose back to EU. Apparently, J&J are advising of the delays to the EU as expected quantities of the vaccine in April will not arrive. Even though the vaccine is being produced in the EU it’s being sent to US for final “bottling and packaging” from where it never reaches back the EU due to US export ban. I think the EU are looking on extending the definition for possible export bans on the vaccines that only require “packaging” too and so they should given how our “allies” are supporting us. Feck them.
My understanding from the articles I've read I think in this thread is that the contract signed with the UK Govt differed because the UK govt paid more per dose and indemnified AZ of risk and put up money for start up costs.
The EU prevaricated because,
It did not want to indemnify AZ.
It did not want to pay as much per dose.
It did want a whole EU approach and some EU countries were reticent in providing large start up sums of money to the vaccine companies because those companies were German and French.
AZ made it clear that there were going to be problems ramping up production and because of that refused to guarantee deliveries inserting a worthless best efforts clause instead of a first doses clause like it had in the UK contract.
That is why we are where we are in the dispute between the EU and AZ.
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They will take action at the end of the second quarter, that is at the end of June, but will have produced 420m doses by mid-July anyway. I'm missing why this is a big story somewhere.
No its not if you think about it.
You are saying betting on a match at half time is the same as betting on it before kick off. They are not the same bet and the EU wanted to wait until half time and got worse terms. Now we know United are 3 nil up they want the same pay out as if they bet before a ball was kicked. My example with Sanofi stands. At the time the orders were placed there were no approved vaccines so why are you so angry at AZ for not delivering while giving a pass to Sanofi.
Its ridiculous to pretend the EU did not have exactly the same chance to sign exactly the same type of contract. It did not do so and we are where we are.
This comparison with the UK to a continent of 27 other countries is getting a bit out of hand. What happens if UK send the EU 6 million, that's barely anything spread across that many people.
EU region of 450-500m people should be making vaccines under EU firms and not sniping at small region of 67 million trying to shame them out of some vaccines which hardly make a dent to a continent's needs and severely damages this small country's vaccine rollout with one of the highest deaths rates which has just been through a more contagious variant and another long lockdown which has not ended yet, started in early Jan, this is what is seems to be about, a political score to mask a huge gaping hole for a continent trying shame a single country to give up some of its small capacity endangering the rollout.
The EU deal with AZ, that have no manufacturing vaccine experience and had to set up new plants in the EU to supply the EU should raise concern that the EU is making such a deal in the first place while US firms like Pfizer J&J operate within the EU. It highlights Europe's expertise and manufacturing is not being utilized and it's quite embarrassing and shameful to be sniping at the UK signalling about vaccine exports when it's just corporate deals made while they were considering it all, nothing altruistic about it.
EU have lots of vaccines coming very soon, lots of big deals made, just a couple months later is all so I don't get all the fighting. Some MPs in Germany are quite pragmatic about the situation and say this is the price we pay.
EU region of 450-500m people should be making vaccines under EU firms and not sniping at small region of 67 million trying to shame them out of some vaccines which hardly make a dent to a continent's needs and severely damages this small country's vaccine rollout with one of the highest deaths rates which has just been through a more contagious variant and another long lockdown which has not ended yet, started in early Jan, this is what is seems to be about, a political score to mask a huge gaping hole for a continent trying shame a single country to give up some of its small capacity endangering the rollout.
The EU deal with AZ, that have no manufacturing vaccine experience and had to set up new plants in the EU to supply the EU should raise concern that the EU is making such a deal in the first place while US firms like Pfizer J&J operate within the EU. It highlights Europe's expertise and manufacturing is not being utilized and it's quite embarrassing and shameful to be sniping at the UK signalling about vaccine exports when it's just corporate deals made while they were considering it all, nothing altruistic about it.
EU have lots of vaccines coming very soon, lots of big deals made, just a couple months later is all so I don't get all the fighting. Some MPs in Germany are quite pragmatic about the situation and say this is the price we pay.
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They can't fine AZ as AZ don't have the same contract worth the UK as they do with the EU. That the EU doesn't like the outcome isn't really relevant.
Part of Oxford's deal with AZ was delivery to the UK first due to the significant government funding they got - 65 million quid if I remember correctly.
The morality of vaccine distribution is a different issue.
The wife got the AZ shot a couple of days ago and has had no adverse reaction, touch wood. Interestingly she said the staff at the clinic insisted on calling it the Oxford vaccination. Im wondering if they are being told to do that as the AZ name as an undeserved reputation
That’s odd, it’s the AZ jab in all NHS documentation and that’s what gets written in the vaccine card, unless that clinic are just being a bit weird about it.
A couple of interesting articles on the manufacturing processes and issues for the various vaccine types. In particular on why ramp up of production is more straightforward or at least more predictable for some vaccines, and the kind of shortages they are all facing.
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news...vid-vaccines-at-scale-is-hard/4013429.article
And for a look at how/where the companies have found capacity.
https://www.fiercepharma.com/special-reports/vaccine-supply-chains-holding-line-against-covid-19
The real supply chains are way more complex than that of course. The Pfizer Belgium site needs specialist lipids from the UK as one of its inputs. The Novavax plants all rely on just a couple of facilities making their adjuvant in Sweden and the USA (from a Chilean raw material).
Everybody is relying on a limited number of finish and fill plants, and packaging/filter suppliers, so production is continually moving across borders. Almost all production globally is so interlinked, and the supply chains so fragile, that the impressive thing is how fast the ramp up is going - not the delays and the bickering around it.
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news...vid-vaccines-at-scale-is-hard/4013429.article
And for a look at how/where the companies have found capacity.
https://www.fiercepharma.com/special-reports/vaccine-supply-chains-holding-line-against-covid-19
The real supply chains are way more complex than that of course. The Pfizer Belgium site needs specialist lipids from the UK as one of its inputs. The Novavax plants all rely on just a couple of facilities making their adjuvant in Sweden and the USA (from a Chilean raw material).
Everybody is relying on a limited number of finish and fill plants, and packaging/filter suppliers, so production is continually moving across borders. Almost all production globally is so interlinked, and the supply chains so fragile, that the impressive thing is how fast the ramp up is going - not the delays and the bickering around it.
Went for my Pfizer vax but they only had Moderna left and had to take that.
What d''you know about Moderna?
Is it effective and any side effects?
What d''you know about Moderna?
Is it effective and any side effects?
"we don't have coke, is Pepsi OK?"
So with all the news about getting different stock in how does it work for the second jab? If your first was AZ is it okay for the second to be Moderna?
More or less identical efficacy stats to Pfizer. Very similar side effects to the other vaccines - some people don't notice anything, others feel like they've got a mild (or not so mild) dose of flu, or an achey arm for the next day or so. No particular safety issues of its own though.
If you've had covid before, the first dose may hit you harder.
They're all effective. Every single one prevents hospitalization and death I believe.