Why would people be against the idea of vaccinated people travelling as soon as they can, other than envy?
A negative test before flying for someone who is already vaccinated would be the ideal IMO. Even that won’t be watertight but a big improvement on the alternatives.
If the EU covid passport doesn't differentiate between people who have been infected and those who have been vaccinated I very much doubt NZ, AU, Singapore etc will accept it.
So, envy. It's obviously completely understandable to feel that way, and I'm sure I would too in that case. But I don't think it's a good enough reason to keep others in lockdown.I'd be fecking fuming in fairness if my daughter can't see her family back in the UK for over 2 years and never sees her Great Gran again, whilst my 72 yr old neighbour Lasse is sunbathing in Puerto Banus.
Well there you go, you're already throwing another level in because what I'm saying is correct, we have no idea if the negative tested pregnant missus nor the 90 year old vaccinated in Feb Nan it more likely to be carrying and able to pass on Covid.
And yet you're all ok with discrimination to that degree.
You can't say that with any certainty whatsoever Wibbs, because even the scientists behind the vaccines have no idea how long the protection will last, nor if for some it could be extremely short-lived.
So, envy. It's obviously completely understandable to feel that way, and I'm sure I would too in that case. But I don't think it's a good enough reason to keep others in lockdown.
What’s one got to do with the other?
Does your neighbour have to check in with you before he books to puerto banus? Of course not.
No one said life is fair anyway.
So, envy. It's obviously completely understandable to feel that way, and I'm sure I would too in that case. But I don't think it's a good enough reason to keep others in lockdown.
I'd be fecking fuming in fairness if my daughter can't see her family back in the UK for over 2 years and never sees her Great Gran again, whilst my 72 yr old neighbour Lasse is sunbathing in Puerto Banus.
I swear some feckwits forget just how many families have been ripped apart by Covid, and how many lives work, it's not just about getting some fecktards going back on their jollies again.
Cmon man. It’s not like that but to think that your neighbour shouldn’t travel because your daughter or others (presumably in a different country?) are living in a place that can’t get its shit together as quick as others.Good one. "life aint fair dickhead"
All the indications so far are that t-cells are being produced even when initial antibodies to the more problesome variants aren't that great so protection seems likely to be far far longer than a few months.
Tests are only really useful if combined with 14 day quarantine and the idea is to eliminate the need for quarantine.
There’s no correlation though. Stopping Lasse sunbathing doesn’t allow your daughter to travel - it just stops Lasse getting a tan.It's not envy, it's discriminating against my fecking daughter and family so Lasse can go sunbathe.
It's not envy, it's discriminating against my fecking daughter and family so Lasse can go sunbathe.
Cmon man. It’s not like that but to think that your neighbour shouldn’t travel because your daughter or others (presumably in a different country?) are living in a place that can’t get its shit together as quick as orhers.
yeah, life’s still not fair.
You’re thinking about this the wrong way. It’s so Lasse can help people who desperately need tourist dollars to earn a living, without Lasse killing any of them.
And if Australia goes with vaccines only as proof of "ok", as the Qantas bloke said, you can be certain you'll have more Covid than ever as some point soon.
This no-Covid idea needs to die a quick death.
And my missus wouldn't be killing anyone by taking a test in June, testing negative and flying back the UK.
You're thinking about it from a perspective of either "zero Covid" which is pie in the sky stuff, or total reliance on the vaccine protecting 100% for a long period, a complete unknown.
I think both should be allowed, because I don't believe there's ever a chance of zero Covid, ever.
How do you figure? We won't be opening up even with a covid passport until 80% or more of Australians are vaccinated. Except possibly to countries like NZ who have also almost eliminated community transmission.
And my missus wouldn't be killing anyone by taking a test in June, testing negative and flying back the UK.
You're thinking about it from a perspective of either "zero Covid" which is pie in the sky stuff, or total reliance on the vaccine protecting 100% for a long period, a complete unknown.
I think both should be allowed, because I don't believe there's ever a chance of zero Covid, ever.
As I said, vaccine plus negative test is the way forward. Gives the best possible chance of minimising cross border transmission while allowing tourism to start again.
And this isn’t about zero covid. This is about keeping out new variants that could potentially rip through an already vaccinated population.
It’s good to get different opinions on this whole thing.Once again I don't think Lasse shouldn't travel when vaccinated. Read the fecking discussion man.
I figure because I don't see zero Covid as a viable future, it aint happening.
The quotes from Joyce I agree with:
Even with vaccines, Mr Joyce thinks that "once we open up our international borders, we're going to have the virus circulating".
"And that's going to be a big change for a lot of Australia, to find that acceptable," he said. "We need people to understand they can't have zero risk with this virus. We manage risk in so many different other ways for other parts of life."
Some vaccinated people will pass on the virus, things will slip the net once you open up. You'll have all risk groups vaccinated by then and lots more protection so you'll live with it just fine.
Whats discriminatory about it?But can you or anyone answer the question above to green light that level of discrimination ?
As I've mentioned before, I had my yellow feber jab back in 06 in order to travel to Panama, so it's not a new or novel thing, but it would be monumental discrimination against so many to do what you're suggesting. I can't agree with that level of discrimination when we don't even have all the answers about which is safer, a "negative test today" or a "vaccine 5 months ago".
So if your Great Gran were vaccinated before you, and had a vaccine passport, and wanted to visit, then you would say 'No, I can't travel so you can't either'?I'd be fecking fuming in fairness if my daughter can't see her family back in the UK for over 2 years and never sees her Great Gran again, whilst my 72 yr old neighbour Lasse is sunbathing in Puerto Banus.
I swear some feckwits forget just how many families have been ripped apart by Covid, and how many lives work, it's not just about getting some fecktards going back on their jollies again.
So if your Great Gran were vaccinated before you, and had a vaccine passport, and wanted to visit, then you would say 'No, I can't travel so you can't either'?
Wouldn't that make you responsible for needlessly keeping families apart?
Same logic, if only Great Gran is going to die from Covid and you wanted to visit baby brother who lives in a different house, wouldn't lockdown be responsible for needlessly keeping families apart?
Why not just lock up all the oldies a year ago why the rest of us get on with it?
Vaccine passports become necessary, in my opinion, once everyone has been offered one. If you choose not to accept it then businesses should be able to chose not to let you in. Until that point, by the very nature of the vaccine rollout, I cannot see how vaccine passports don't amount to age discrimination on a national level.
Did that analogy make more sense in your head than it does written down?!
The normal passport is probably a bigger social construct than a vaccine passport and discriminates already all the time with the whole world accepting it. So I don't see an issue there.
I'm fine with people getting access to various things once vaccinated even if others in the same country haven't been offered a vaccine yet. It would definitely help various industries.
However, I'm not really a fan of how scepticism is portrayed as a pure envy thing, it reminds me a bit of how "tax the rich" positions are quickly turned into envy arguments. 21 year old Richie has just as much contributed to get this virus under control as 64 Joe just with the difference that the former had his university moved to remote right away, lost his part time job in a bar and has been constraint to a 12qm² room while Joe has kept his engineering office open to be able to talk football with his mates at lunch and spent his non-working time in his 200qm² house. The latter to be able to do things more freely than the former definitely does not feel right. I am aware that a lot of old people definitely had a tough year and the issue has definitely been downplayed with comments a la "ah well it only gets the old anyway".
But make no mistake, the boomer generation that gets vaccinated right now has definitely more economic and social security in these times than young people. As someone in his twenties who knows plenty of people my age who have quite suffered in these times, schools and universities were among the first to close while plenty of older working people could go along there life in quite a similar manner than before.
In any one country, the people who are getting vaccinated first are the ones who are deemed to have the highest risk of serious complications or death if they catch Covid. That may be because of age, existing illness or because they're doing a job that puts them in the firing line.Same logic, if only Great Gran is going to die from Covid and you wanted to visit baby brother who lives in a different house, wouldn't lockdown be responsible for needlessly keeping families apart?
Why not just lock up all the oldies a year ago why the rest of us get on with it? We (correctly in my opinion) decided on a collective approach even where some groups would have done better without one.
Vaccine passports become necessary, in my opinion, once everyone has been offered one. If you choose not to accept it then businesses should be able to chose not to let you in. Until that point, by the very nature of the vaccine rollout, I cannot see how vaccine passports don't amount to age discrimination on a national level.
Maybe I haven't expressed it clearly enough (probably baby brother, I meant an adult relative), but I think the points obvious is it not?
If we're going to support vaccine passports because, if not, you're 'needlessly keeping families apart', then there are all manner of combinations of how families could have met during the last year with a vanishingly small risk that any of them whatsoever would get seriously ill from Covid. In fact, it's one of the most common arguments you hear from lockdown sceptics.
In any one country, the people who are getting vaccinated first are the ones who are deemed to have the highest risk of serious complications or death if they catch Covid. That may be because of age, existing illness or because they're doing a job that puts them in the firing line.
It's not age discrimination - the virus picks off the older, frailer people first, and also those who experience a high level of exposure (like health workers). If they get the vaccination first, why penalise them further? Many of them have been living in fear for the last year and/or shielding, which younger, fit people haven't had to do.
In any one country, the people who are getting vaccinated first are the ones who are deemed to have the highest risk of serious complications or death if they catch Covid. That may be because of age, existing illness or because they're doing a job that puts them in the firing line.
It's not age discrimination - the virus picks off the older, frailer people first, and also those who experience a high level of exposure (like health workers). If they get the vaccination first, why penalise them further? Many of them have been living in fear for the last year and/or shielding, which younger, fit people haven't had to do.
I think a lot of the annoyance stems from “we’re all in this together”, until we aren’t anymore, and the people you’ve sacrificed over a year of the prime of your life for get to sod off on a jolly
Not the same logic, there are differences. Lockdowns are intended to save lives. Preventing unvaccinated people from flying is intended to save lives. Preventing vaccinated people from flying just because it's unfair to others is nothing to do with saving lives, it's just childish jealously. I've no plans to fly anywhere for a year or two personally, I'm quite unbiased in this. Also willing to change my mind, given a good reason.Same logic, if only Great Gran is going to die from Covid and you wanted to visit baby brother who lives in a different house, wouldn't lockdown be responsible for needlessly keeping families apart?
Why not just lock up all the oldies a year ago why the rest of us get on with it? We (correctly in my opinion) decided on a collective approach even where some groups would have done better without one.
Vaccine passports become necessary, in my opinion, once everyone has been offered one. If you choose not to accept it then businesses should be able to chose not to let you in. Until that point, by the very nature of the vaccine rollout, I cannot see how vaccine passports don't amount to age discrimination on a national level.
I get that but why would you feel the need to punish them by making them wait longer than they need to to start to get their lives back on track? Just seems nuts to me. And I’m saying this as someone who will be in the last 25% of my country to get the jab.
